Extra landing fees if the runway lights are needed?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Extra landing fees if the runway lights are needed?
Just a quick question for everyone.
Has anyone else been to an airfield that doubles it's landing fees if you ask for the landing lights to be turned on?
I finally saw confirmation that my homefield does and I'm horrified and kicking up a stink about it. Is this normal? I've never seen it before, but not having been to every airfield on the planet I'm not sure if this is isolated or not.
Would AOPA be interested in this? I think it's a safety issue, in the same way that people shouldn't be charged for wx diverts, as if they need to act, the financial aspects should never ever be thought of.
Has anyone else been to an airfield that doubles it's landing fees if you ask for the landing lights to be turned on?
I finally saw confirmation that my homefield does and I'm horrified and kicking up a stink about it. Is this normal? I've never seen it before, but not having been to every airfield on the planet I'm not sure if this is isolated or not.
Would AOPA be interested in this? I think it's a safety issue, in the same way that people shouldn't be charged for wx diverts, as if they need to act, the financial aspects should never ever be thought of.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Maders UK
exponentially increasing landing fees
Plymouth goes up by a factor of 4 at 8pm lcl.(Usually open 06h30-22h30 lcl)
Both my aircraft are on a block ldg fee there so it makes no odds to me but if you were a visitor and landed at 20h01 or later the fee becomes exorbitant (whether the lights are turned on or not)
SB
Both my aircraft are on a block ldg fee there so it makes no odds to me but if you were a visitor and landed at 20h01 or later the fee becomes exorbitant (whether the lights are turned on or not)
SB
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
It costs money to install and maintain the lights, and no doubt to get them inspected and lots of other things. Oh, and a little extra for the electricity to run them I suppose.
Why on earth should you get them for free???
Or, to put it anyother way, why should people who never use the lights pay for your use of them???
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: SE England
I know of a field who charge an extra £5 for the use of the lights, but I think that is not unreasonable.
But my bug-bear is Exeter. A friend and I got caught out landing a few minutes after the stated hours (19.00hrs on a Saturday in July!) and got hammered for out of hours charges, even though ATC were there and the airfield wasn't especially busy.
They are not part of the Strasser campaign, and should be ashamed of themselves
But my bug-bear is Exeter. A friend and I got caught out landing a few minutes after the stated hours (19.00hrs on a Saturday in July!) and got hammered for out of hours charges, even though ATC were there and the airfield wasn't especially busy.
They are not part of the Strasser campaign, and should be ashamed of themselves
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,652
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From: 50+ north
Right on Gertrude the Wombat!
Agree 300 %, it often escapes the GA community that airports/aerodromes operate as businesses. I've lost count of the times that I've been stood behind someone who has been asked for a £15 landing fee, only to reply "how much? I just wanted to land here, not buy the place!"
PS, I love all Beavers whether powered by a piston, turbine or two legs!
Agree 300 %, it often escapes the GA community that airports/aerodromes operate as businesses. I've lost count of the times that I've been stood behind someone who has been asked for a £15 landing fee, only to reply "how much? I just wanted to land here, not buy the place!"
PS, I love all Beavers whether powered by a piston, turbine or two legs!
Blah Blah Blah
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Malmesbury VRP
Good question.
How about becasue in good ole USA you get them for free. I have landed at international airports in a spamcan at night and during the day. I have even been picked up by some bloke in a golf cart and taken to the FBO where i then had free coffee and buscuits. Chilled out on some nice big leather sofa's wathcing Sky, then i made full use of the self briefing services, had some more coffee then asked the bloke to take me back to my plane in the golf cart....All free!!!
How about becasue in good ole USA you get them for free. I have landed at international airports in a spamcan at night and during the day. I have even been picked up by some bloke in a golf cart and taken to the FBO where i then had free coffee and buscuits. Chilled out on some nice big leather sofa's wathcing Sky, then i made full use of the self briefing services, had some more coffee then asked the bloke to take me back to my plane in the golf cart....All free!!!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Not free, GC. Subsidised.
Subsidised by both frequent flyers, and by the local and general taxpayer.
Frequent flyers will always subsiside infrequent flyers... same with road users.
The problem with Europe is that it doesn't have any frequent flyers. There aren't enough airfields, there aren't anywhere near enough airfields with instrument approaches (essential for business travel), and the IR (essential for business travel) has never been as hard to get as it is now.
Subsidised by both frequent flyers, and by the local and general taxpayer.
Frequent flyers will always subsiside infrequent flyers... same with road users.
The problem with Europe is that it doesn't have any frequent flyers. There aren't enough airfields, there aren't anywhere near enough airfields with instrument approaches (essential for business travel), and the IR (essential for business travel) has never been as hard to get as it is now.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Abroad
How in the UK they manage to charge many times the amounts requested in France and still not be able to afford to pay for the lights is anyone's guess
Blah Blah Blah
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From: Malmesbury VRP
Fair do's
Could this not be because of the exceedingly high prices compared to further afieled? And over kill on regulations? Especialy in the UK.
As for the IR...it certainly is not cheap to obtain..the worst part is the up keep of it..at least in the U.S you are not going to pay to keep to practice instrument approaches (I am not sure if this is a correct assumption).
All I am saying is..with the high costs of landing an SEP in the UK I think it is a bit much to charge for switching on some runway lights.
The problem with Europe is that it doesn't have any frequent flyers. There aren't enough airfields, there aren't anywhere near enough airfields with instrument approaches (essential for business travel), and the IR (essential for business travel) has never been as hard to get as it is now.
Could this not be because of the exceedingly high prices compared to further afieled? And over kill on regulations? Especialy in the UK.
As for the IR...it certainly is not cheap to obtain..the worst part is the up keep of it..at least in the U.S you are not going to pay to keep to practice instrument approaches (I am not sure if this is a correct assumption).
All I am saying is..with the high costs of landing an SEP in the UK I think it is a bit much to charge for switching on some runway lights.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Since this airfield isn't open after 5 during the winter and only until 8 during the summer, there are very few who ever use them for night flying, especially as the gates are usually locked 30 seconds after the licence finishes. I've only used them once in 2 years and even then I had to fight to get them put on, even though I'd given notice 5 hours earlier that I'd be returning just after dark. My point isn't about landing at night, but if you ask for them during the day.
If the wx turns nasty and someone is having trouble finding the field, then having the lights on could be an enormous help. i.e safer.
If there is a charge to be made, this could introduce an element of doubt at the worst possible moment. If there are no lights, then so be it, but to charge extra for what could be a safety device is a bit over the top. To me this is exactly the same argument that is made about landing fee's and wx diverts and we all agree on that.
Do they cost more to run, yes of course, but the landing fees are already well over the top. Doubling it up to £20 a landing for a homebased machine is a bit steep. Especially since they are about as useful as the lights on my Christmas tree. As for the money spent on maintenance......... It only costs something if you do anything!
If the wx turns nasty and someone is having trouble finding the field, then having the lights on could be an enormous help. i.e safer.
If there is a charge to be made, this could introduce an element of doubt at the worst possible moment. If there are no lights, then so be it, but to charge extra for what could be a safety device is a bit over the top. To me this is exactly the same argument that is made about landing fee's and wx diverts and we all agree on that.
Do they cost more to run, yes of course, but the landing fees are already well over the top. Doubling it up to £20 a landing for a homebased machine is a bit steep. Especially since they are about as useful as the lights on my Christmas tree. As for the money spent on maintenance......... It only costs something if you do anything!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
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From: london uk
I was Dropping off a couple at Elstree and they charged me £20 extra for the lights, as it was 10 minutes after Sun Down but still as bright as you like I never requested them, but was charged anyhow! To add insult to injury, i was kept waiting at the hold for 15 minutes to depart the next day (they are an A/G field but i need to go there often so need to keep them sweet!) I would have been ok to go many times,, but the RADIO OPERATOR (call sign Elstree Radar!
) Kept me holding @£3.00/minute!!! So that cost me an extra £65.00 Cheers.
I know flying is expensive, but i could have taken my wife for a reasonable dinner for not much more, and i know which i would have prefered
I understand all the arguments for and against, But lets face it a field must make the large part of its income from services and charges to the based aircraft and schools etc. Surely thats the way it is in the States? Cant see places like Teterborough getting much in the way of Taxpayers subsidies? And the tax in the states is much less than here! Better get off the politics as it gets me going!
I never requested them, but was charged anyhow! To add insult to injury, i was kept waiting at the hold for 15 minutes to depart the next day (they are an A/G field but i need to go there often so need to keep them sweet!) I would have been ok to go many times,, but the RADIO OPERATOR (call sign Elstree Radar! ) Kept me holding @£3.00/minute!!! So that cost me an extra £65.00 Cheers. I know flying is expensive, but i could have taken my wife for a reasonable dinner for not much more, and i know which i would have prefered I understand all the arguments for and against, But lets face it a field must make the large part of its income from services and charges to the based aircraft and schools etc. Surely thats the way it is in the States? Cant see places like Teterborough getting much in the way of Taxpayers subsidies? And the tax in the states is much less than here! Better get off the politics as it gets me going!
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SAS
What sort of increase are you talking about? I doubling the fee raises it to £10 from £5 so what? Or is it the principle of the thing?
If the difference is significant eg for night circuit training, could the 'extra' cost more profitably be spent with a transit to a lower-cost aerodrome?
What sort of increase are you talking about? I doubling the fee raises it to £10 from £5 so what? Or is it the principle of the thing?
If the difference is significant eg for night circuit training, could the 'extra' cost more profitably be spent with a transit to a lower-cost aerodrome?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
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From: U.K.
'I-M,
As before homebased a/c £10 upto £20. If it were a twin, it would take it to nearly £50 if it was a visitor!
An extra £1 or two I could understand, but doubling already exorbitant fee's is taking the p**s in my eyes.
There's no night training at the mo' as the airfield want to charge extra for extending the licence into dark. £40 an hour! On top of the doubled up landing fees!
As before homebased a/c £10 upto £20. If it were a twin, it would take it to nearly £50 if it was a visitor!
An extra £1 or two I could understand, but doubling already exorbitant fee's is taking the p**s in my eyes.
There's no night training at the mo' as the airfield want to charge extra for extending the licence into dark. £40 an hour! On top of the doubled up landing fees!
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 98
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From: The South
Personally, I'd rather airfields charged a bit for landing at night if that meant that more would stay open after sunset in the first place. However, charging for use of the lights (rather than charging for landing at night) seems wrong and a potential safety issue.
Mark
Joined: May 2005
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From: Aberdeen, UK
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
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From: 75N 16E
What a stupid pricing policy. Why not take the number of times they are turned on divided by the number of landings and then add the cost of running the lights to every landing fee (pence probably). Bournemouth turned them on for me the other day when landing in a rain shower....
Maybe they will be charging us to use NDBs, VORs and even radar next. If so maybe we should submit bills for interrogating our Mode S transponders when we have to buy them.
We have pilot controlled lighting at our unlicensed field.....but shhh, it is a secret
Maybe they will be charging us to use NDBs, VORs and even radar next. If so maybe we should submit bills for interrogating our Mode S transponders when we have to buy them.
We have pilot controlled lighting at our unlicensed field.....but shhh, it is a secret
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Cambridge UK
!!!Is this common elsewhere?
If so, I need to consider that when choosing a suitable FTO.
Any other shocks in store?
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Surrey
If Elstree call themselves Elstree radar, why not ask for FRS?