Avoiding action
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Avoiding action
Today, I had the second genuine near miss of my flying career. On both occasions I spotted a plane level, close and closing fast. One was a twin from 2:00. The one today was a cessna (or other similar high wing) from 21:00. OK maybe I should get TCAS and improve lookout but that is not the issue up for discussion here. The fact is that on both of these occasions, my instant automatic reaction has been to dive beneath the other aircraft. The worrying thing is if the other pilot see's me at the same moment and takes the same action. On both occasions I do not think I would have had time to take any different avoiding action.
Appreciate any comments - not on lookout or tcas but on other possible last second action.
btw - was on a RIS from Luton but traffic was not mentioned (although that is no excuse of course)
Appreciate any comments - not on lookout or tcas but on other possible last second action.
btw - was on a RIS from Luton but traffic was not mentioned (although that is no excuse of course)
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There is a general rule which states that you should turn in such a way as to pass behind the other aircraft but that theory is really and practically limited to to you seeing an aircraft on your right hand side and on a converging course a long way away.
In reality and as you have found you tend not to see the other aircraft until it is virtually on you and gut reaction takes in. Most Pilots will take a self preservation route and manoevre in whatever direction will take them away from the converging aircraft - climbing away is not generally an option so a steep bannked and propbably descending turn away from the threat is probably most people's reaction.
I had a similar occurance myself in August whilst flying steadily in a Sw'ly direction in the late afternoon / evening. Suddenly and without warning an aircraft appeared at my two o'clock blocking out the sun. I should have seen and I should have taken avoiding action because it was on my right hand side but I could not possibly have done so as the other aircraft was in effect a stationary target within the sun and it was only when it got so close that it became bigger than the sun did I see it. Gut reaction kicked in to get me away from the 'threat' and I did a violent left hand dive. I don't know if it was the 'right' thing to do - the options to do the 'right' thing become pretty limited at such close range.
You did OK - you avoided a mid air but I would suggest that you report the airprox anyway to help everyone else in the future. Remember there is no blame apportioned in Airprox reports.
In reality and as you have found you tend not to see the other aircraft until it is virtually on you and gut reaction takes in. Most Pilots will take a self preservation route and manoevre in whatever direction will take them away from the converging aircraft - climbing away is not generally an option so a steep bannked and propbably descending turn away from the threat is probably most people's reaction.
I had a similar occurance myself in August whilst flying steadily in a Sw'ly direction in the late afternoon / evening. Suddenly and without warning an aircraft appeared at my two o'clock blocking out the sun. I should have seen and I should have taken avoiding action because it was on my right hand side but I could not possibly have done so as the other aircraft was in effect a stationary target within the sun and it was only when it got so close that it became bigger than the sun did I see it. Gut reaction kicked in to get me away from the 'threat' and I did a violent left hand dive. I don't know if it was the 'right' thing to do - the options to do the 'right' thing become pretty limited at such close range.
You did OK - you avoided a mid air but I would suggest that you report the airprox anyway to help everyone else in the future. Remember there is no blame apportioned in Airprox reports.
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I beleive airlaw states a right hand turn as avoiding action. So if both pilots have rememberd his information they would execute a right hand turn thus avoiding a loud bang and a falling sensation.
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In the real world????
Why would I turn into the direction of an aircraft that is closing on me at about 200mph (see my earlier post).
Yes it was my responsibility to see him earlier and had I done that I would probably have made a right turn in good time to avoid the conflict but as he was 'hidden' in the sun and because he was on a collision course he stayed in a fixed relative position it was only when he blocked out the sun at about 30 metres did I see him and instinct would not allow me to turn towards him. Istead I initiated a steep dive and left bank away from him.
Last edited by tonyhalsall; 13th Oct 2006 at 08:26. Reason: typo
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In the Taylorcraft, however, it's a slightly different story. There I tended to do what made sense at the time.
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[quote=3FallinFlyer;2905277]
. On both occasions I do not think I would have had time to take any different avoiding action.
so even though air law gives you the preferred course of action ( to reduce the time of exposure to the minimum ) the urgencies of the moment may dictate otherwise...and you have to hope afterwards that your action in the circumstances will stand up to scrutiny...well thats flying for you...
and why the legislators on the ground leave it up to you in the end of the day to do what they will judge afterwards is regarded as a safe course of action...
makes you feel between a rock and a hard place...does'nt it ??
well..sorry..no quick solutions...you are the PILOT IN COMMAND...
. On both occasions I do not think I would have had time to take any different avoiding action.
so even though air law gives you the preferred course of action ( to reduce the time of exposure to the minimum ) the urgencies of the moment may dictate otherwise...and you have to hope afterwards that your action in the circumstances will stand up to scrutiny...well thats flying for you...
and why the legislators on the ground leave it up to you in the end of the day to do what they will judge afterwards is regarded as a safe course of action...
makes you feel between a rock and a hard place...does'nt it ??
well..sorry..no quick solutions...you are the PILOT IN COMMAND...
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True enough, but at the time, you have to do what you think is right. I usually climb and turn. I fly a Pitts and there are few things out there with the kind of acceleration and climb rate I've got so most of the time, even if we both do the same thing, it's not going to be a real problem.
In the Taylorcraft, however, it's a slightly different story. There I tended to do what made sense at the time.
Pitts2112
In the Taylorcraft, however, it's a slightly different story. There I tended to do what made sense at the time.
Pitts2112
I had to make a rapid change of direction to avoid an aircraft near Henley, and although I had right of way decided to play safe. That proved to be a good idea, as he never made the slightest effort to change course, even though I put landing lights on as well as the strobes.
A right turn was out of the question as it would have taken me across his bows, so I chose a descending left turn. Not something I liked, but he sailed by without even acknowledging me.
What bothered me was that he was either flying head-down on instruments, but then should have been in contact with the local service who were warning me, or he was on autopilot and reading the Daily Sport.
But thats the trouble with areas around the 'honeypots' like CPT.
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In a perfect world - yes
In the real world????
Why would I turn into the direction of an aircraft that is closing on me at about 200mph (see my earlier post).
Yes it was my responsibility to see him earlier and had I done that I would probably have made a right turn in good time to avoid the conflict but as he was 'hidden' in the sun and because he was on a collision course he stayed in a fixed relative position it was only when he blocked out the sun at about 30 metres did I see him and instinct would not allow me to turn towards him. Istead I initiated a steep dive and left bank away from him.
In the real world????
Why would I turn into the direction of an aircraft that is closing on me at about 200mph (see my earlier post).
Yes it was my responsibility to see him earlier and had I done that I would probably have made a right turn in good time to avoid the conflict but as he was 'hidden' in the sun and because he was on a collision course he stayed in a fixed relative position it was only when he blocked out the sun at about 30 metres did I see him and instinct would not allow me to turn towards him. Istead I initiated a steep dive and left bank away from him.
I was not critising you..so i am sorry if it seemed that way. Your description of events sounds like the other aircraft would have broad sided you. if this is the case his look out must have ben S*it as you would have have been right in front of him!
So i agree on your particular occasion a right hand turn would be stupid. I also agree as PIC you should take whatever action you feel is needed.
In cases such as yours don't you just feel like chasing the buggers to give them some wot 4!!
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I didn't take it as criticism - I can come accross quite aggresive in my posts sometimes and I don't mean to.
My incident shook me up big time because it was absolutely my responsibility to stay clear - but the realisation that something could be closing on me in the sun would never, ever had occured to me before.
I agree that he could and should have seen me as I have a shiny aluminium aeroplane and I was surely 'glinting' in the sun - but I am glad I didn't have to remonstrate with him from six feet under as to whose responsibility it was.
My incident shook me up big time because it was absolutely my responsibility to stay clear - but the realisation that something could be closing on me in the sun would never, ever had occured to me before.
I agree that he could and should have seen me as I have a shiny aluminium aeroplane and I was surely 'glinting' in the sun - but I am glad I didn't have to remonstrate with him from six feet under as to whose responsibility it was.
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Why is this the other aircrafts fault? You did not see him either until the last moment hence the near miss. Was your look out not sufficient either?
Assuming your aircraft would have been "glinting" in the sun enough to alert him to your presence is a little arrogant as well.
It may well have been that the vis or the sun from his angle effectivly made you invisible.
See and avoid is an onus on all parties.....
Assuming your aircraft would have been "glinting" in the sun enough to alert him to your presence is a little arrogant as well.
It may well have been that the vis or the sun from his angle effectivly made you invisible.
See and avoid is an onus on all parties.....
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It was my fault, but I would have thought that a shiny aluminium aeroplane is easier to see away from the sun than a white one that is hidden within the sun itself
That is what I said
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[quote=robin;2906117]
as he never made the slightest effort to change course, even though I put landing lights on as well as the strobes.
robin...
surely if you regard strobes as ' anti collision lights '....mandatory while the aircraft is in operation...
certainly a good idea to put on the landing lights...but i would keep the strobes, navigation lights and the anti collision on the tail on AT ALL TIMES irrespective of traffic...
dean...
as he never made the slightest effort to change course, even though I put landing lights on as well as the strobes.
robin...
surely if you regard strobes as ' anti collision lights '....mandatory while the aircraft is in operation...
certainly a good idea to put on the landing lights...but i would keep the strobes, navigation lights and the anti collision on the tail on AT ALL TIMES irrespective of traffic...
dean...
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3FF
You mentioed that you were on a RIS from Luton, was it limited in anyway and did you inform them that you had just had to take AA to avoid a collision? If so what was their response?
Diddley Dee
You mentioed that you were on a RIS from Luton, was it limited in anyway and did you inform them that you had just had to take AA to avoid a collision? If so what was their response?
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A few points worth noting:
A target which is moving across your field of vision, no matter how close he is, is not on a genuine collision course. A target on a collision course will appear stationary to you. Very hard to spot, and this greatly undermines the see-and-avoid principle which is one of the treasured cornerstones of GA.
You can't assume who the target is talking to. In Class G, he doesn't have to talk to anybody, and frankly talking to anybody who doesn't provide a radar information service, or a radar advisory service, is a total and complete waste of time for any traffic avoidance purposes. "There are seven aircraft known in your area".... yeah right that's really useful (not). The reality of UK airspace management (basically, no regular radar services outside controlled airspace) is that many experienced pilots fly in Class G with just a listening watch, on London Info or perhaps some nearby unit (in case one has to make a mayday call).
I sometimes see other planes on a course that will take us fairly close. Once I have established that we are going to miss by a good few hundred yards (which looks quite close) or more, I am happy to just sit there flying a dead straight track on the autopilot (with a finger on the disconnect button) while watching the other plane. Often I see the other plane doing nothing and then in the last few seconds waking up and doing an avoidance maneuver which seems quite pointless. No doubt, he thinks I was head down and fiddling with my GPS, just like we read about in all the magazines
But the vast majority of targets are never seen. If that really worries you, mandatory transponders and TCAS are one way to have a go at addressing that... the other way is to get an IR and fly in controlled airspace as much as possible (and hope that nobody infringes it).
A target which is moving across your field of vision, no matter how close he is, is not on a genuine collision course. A target on a collision course will appear stationary to you. Very hard to spot, and this greatly undermines the see-and-avoid principle which is one of the treasured cornerstones of GA.
You can't assume who the target is talking to. In Class G, he doesn't have to talk to anybody, and frankly talking to anybody who doesn't provide a radar information service, or a radar advisory service, is a total and complete waste of time for any traffic avoidance purposes. "There are seven aircraft known in your area".... yeah right that's really useful (not). The reality of UK airspace management (basically, no regular radar services outside controlled airspace) is that many experienced pilots fly in Class G with just a listening watch, on London Info or perhaps some nearby unit (in case one has to make a mayday call).
I sometimes see other planes on a course that will take us fairly close. Once I have established that we are going to miss by a good few hundred yards (which looks quite close) or more, I am happy to just sit there flying a dead straight track on the autopilot (with a finger on the disconnect button) while watching the other plane. Often I see the other plane doing nothing and then in the last few seconds waking up and doing an avoidance maneuver which seems quite pointless. No doubt, he thinks I was head down and fiddling with my GPS, just like we read about in all the magazines
But the vast majority of targets are never seen. If that really worries you, mandatory transponders and TCAS are one way to have a go at addressing that... the other way is to get an IR and fly in controlled airspace as much as possible (and hope that nobody infringes it).
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A few points:
1) I was on a RIS not 'limited' RIS
2) The controller was very busy hence I suspect he never noticed the other A/C, or did'nt have time to inform me. This is also why I never mentioned it to him.
3) Both incidents were stationary - very big - and growing fast in the field of vision. On the first incident with the twin, I had to dive so violently that everything loose in the cockpit became airbourne and I gritted my teeth for a fraction of a second as I waited for the impact on the vert stabiliser.
The one yesterday was not quite so close but I would guess 3-4 seconds to impact had I not descended.
I remember being taught during my ppl that the correct avoiding action was to increase power while inducing a 60' right bank turn. That would'nt have prevented a collision in either case here!
1) I was on a RIS not 'limited' RIS
2) The controller was very busy hence I suspect he never noticed the other A/C, or did'nt have time to inform me. This is also why I never mentioned it to him.
3) Both incidents were stationary - very big - and growing fast in the field of vision. On the first incident with the twin, I had to dive so violently that everything loose in the cockpit became airbourne and I gritted my teeth for a fraction of a second as I waited for the impact on the vert stabiliser.
The one yesterday was not quite so close but I would guess 3-4 seconds to impact had I not descended.
I remember being taught during my ppl that the correct avoiding action was to increase power while inducing a 60' right bank turn. That would'nt have prevented a collision in either case here!
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[QUOTE=the dean;2906278]
Sorry - I wasn't clear about this. The strobes were on as well as the beacon. The landing light went on to try to add to my visibility
as he never made the slightest effort to change course, even though I put landing lights on as well as the strobes.
robin...
surely if you regard strobes as ' anti collision lights '....mandatory while the aircraft is in operation...
certainly a good idea to put on the landing lights...but i would keep the strobes, navigation lights and the anti collision on the tail on AT ALL TIMES irrespective of traffic...
dean...
robin...
surely if you regard strobes as ' anti collision lights '....mandatory while the aircraft is in operation...
certainly a good idea to put on the landing lights...but i would keep the strobes, navigation lights and the anti collision on the tail on AT ALL TIMES irrespective of traffic...
dean...
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