Inverted spins

[GroundBound]

NJBill

Gr... with envy

GB

[Zulu Alpha]

An erect spin is caused when positive alpha is exceeded and a wing slows sufficiently as not to cause lift.
An inverted spin occurs when negative alpha is exceeded and a wing slows sufficiently as not to cause lift.
So I can be upside down in attitude, pull the stick back TOO far, hoof in some rudder and I will be spinning errect.
I can be upside down and push TOO far, hoof in some rudder and be spinning inverted.
I can therefore be upright and push - voila inverted spin as critical -ve alpha exceeded.

Stik,
for the upside down, pull the stick too far + rudder spin, this will be an erect spin, but only for a split second as long as you continue upwards. Won't gravity come into play pretty quickly in any normal aircraft and then you'll end up in a yawed spiral dive downwards..ie not a spin or possibly a transition to an erect spin?
So for practical purposes the only spins that are sustainable are erect (stick back) when you are the correct way up and inverted (stick forward) when you are upside down?

Unless I have misunderstood something (not unknown).

ps, no inverted spins at all at Fenland this weekend.

[stiknruda]

ZA - you've lost me!

All I was trying to do was to explain that it is the stick position and not the aircraft attitude or position that determines whether a spin (or indeed any maneouver) is -ve or +ve, outside or inside!

I've re-read my post and I stand by it!

Stik

windy at Fenland wasn't it! Too wet for me to play, too!

[Zulu Alpha]

Lost myself too....I'm just not sure you'll spin if you are upside down and pull the stick back and apply rudder..... may go and try it tonight.

Yes it was windy at Fenland.. I was first up and was halfway to Holbeach before I realised how strong. As PMR said, time for tea and a kit Kat during the into wind sections.
We all had tea and medals and then went home on Friday evening rather than risk staying for Saturday which I hear was even more challenging.

[stiknruda]

ZA

Understand exactly what you mean now!




Okay, top of a loop, starting to avalanche, esp if you are a wee bit early - you pull the stick back, boot in left rudder and keep it and the stick static, I know that my biplane is all too happy to spin! Okay you've flicked it in with power but as the left wing loses lift it doesn't regain it until you stop the rotation. Unless you pull the power back it goes quite flat quite quickly 3 to 4turns. Rate of decent is not particularly high but it won't be part of my display routine this year!

Obviously your hyper-advanced monoplane might behave differently but I doubt it!!

Sure I agree, inverted approaching Vne and a gentle pull will have the ASI pointing to Vne in no time! HAve you spoken to P Top-totty about his recent fun with a push off the top?

[eharding]

Originally Posted by stiknruda

Okay, top of a loop, starting to avalanche, esp if you are a wee bit early - you pull the stick back, boot in left rudder and keep it and the stick static, I know that my biplane is all too happy to spin! Okay you've flicked it in with power but as the left wing loses lift it doesn't regain it until you stop the rotation. Unless you pull the power back it goes quite flat quite quickly 3 to 4turns. Rate of decent is not particularly high but it won't be part of my display routine this year!

To a man, the elder statesmen of the MAXG crew (Tim J, Abbo & Rob H) are firmly of the opinion that a left foot avalanche is asking for trouble, exactly as you describe - it winds itself up very quickly - hence I've only tried it with the right foot - it does flick nicely to the left in other cases though.

Looking forward to some monoplane heresy myself this week in the Plastic Fantastic 300 - all the other toys have gone tech (Yak has no elevators, need to fix the wobbly *upper* ailerons on MAXG).

[stiknruda]

Ed - very interesting as I generally start my routine with a left foot avalanche, as I feel the stall break I unload and apply fwd left stick to accelerate the "snap/flick" component.

I am very aware that if I don't get the recovery in at the appropriate time then either my avalanche will be anything but round/heart shaped or if I'm really behind the power curve I could be more busier than I intended to be when I took the booking!

Oh one day - DJ will buy an Extra and let us play with his Lazer!!!!

[Zulu Alpha]

need to fix the wobbly *upper* ailerons on MAXG

Ed, with two firsts at Fenland, I'd leave them exactly as they are if I were you......on second thoughts, I suggest you get them done up real tight until they are very very stiff.

Will try some avalanche/flicks with right foot. Its taken me ages to get the left foot ones working.

Still not 100% sure about whether a pull and left rudder while inverted could be an inverted upright spin. In the Laser tonight, it just pulled though with lots of yaw in a flicky thing and then went into an erect spin. Might need to consult the uncle for a ruling on this one as I couln't tell what was going on.

See you all at the Tigger... no practising now!!

[stiknruda]

Doctor ZA!

whether a pull and left rudder while inverted could be an inverted upright spin

dhoh

ZA -yes obviously and on recovery it can be anyway up.

Let's get together at S-I-E and discuss/demo.




Stik