AIS Consultation Meeting 8 Aug
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Originally Posted by Sweet FA
As I said before, it would actually be far better if NATS did the absolute minimium possible, and left us to get the service we want from another provider.
Moreover, that is why I would never join AOPA in the UK given they are wasting their time and their members subs on such a pointless excercise.
Moreover, that is why I would never join AOPA in the UK given they are wasting their time and their members subs on such a pointless excercise.
It is a shame the Agony Aunt forum has been closed, else you could have released some of your anger there.
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bpilatus
Actually, no.
I think the CAA do a great deal. Broadly speaking I am more than happy with the services they provide. In fact I get more upset about the lack of understanding I have read so often on these forums about what they do, and have to say about various issues.
I am also content with what the AIS does. Personally, I think they have a good lesson to learn from the Met Offcie and could provide some useful value added services. I do agree with other contributors that if they have a prviliged position that might be dangerous, but the same people also say they dont - talk about wanting it both ways to suite yourself!
I have personally found AOPA to be poor value for money for a number of reasons. I think for the reasons I have said, in this case their lobbying is misguided.
I would passionately like to see more pilots pre-brief properly. I perceive this to be a serious issue for GA and one for which I beleive we should all work together to find a solution.
It seems to me strange you would ask for comments if you didnt want them. It seems to me strange you wouldnt want to establish why more pilots do not properly pre brief. For example, presumably the AIS could tell us how many briefs they provide a day, month, year etc which might give us some idea how widely their services were used?
I appreciate you may not agree with the issues I have raised. I would enjoy any constructive comments you may have to make. I assume you also find the existing arrangements satisfactory and would like to know why you feel so many pilots do not pre-brief.
Actually, no.
I think the CAA do a great deal. Broadly speaking I am more than happy with the services they provide. In fact I get more upset about the lack of understanding I have read so often on these forums about what they do, and have to say about various issues.
I am also content with what the AIS does. Personally, I think they have a good lesson to learn from the Met Offcie and could provide some useful value added services. I do agree with other contributors that if they have a prviliged position that might be dangerous, but the same people also say they dont - talk about wanting it both ways to suite yourself!
I have personally found AOPA to be poor value for money for a number of reasons. I think for the reasons I have said, in this case their lobbying is misguided.
I would passionately like to see more pilots pre-brief properly. I perceive this to be a serious issue for GA and one for which I beleive we should all work together to find a solution.
It seems to me strange you would ask for comments if you didnt want them. It seems to me strange you wouldnt want to establish why more pilots do not properly pre brief. For example, presumably the AIS could tell us how many briefs they provide a day, month, year etc which might give us some idea how widely their services were used?
I appreciate you may not agree with the issues I have raised. I would enjoy any constructive comments you may have to make. I assume you also find the existing arrangements satisfactory and would like to know why you feel so many pilots do not pre-brief.
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For the record, the cost from AOPA members subs is diddly squat. I do it voluntarily and take no expenses so FA may take comfort in the fact that I'm not wasting any of the contribution he doesn't make.
I think we all agree that not enough people brief properly. I'll accept that in the early days of the site it didn't work too well and was poorly documented. (I was one of seven who filed MOR's on the subject) However great improvements have been made since then and the Web Site User Guide produced in April as now excellent.
A lot has been done also to educate people. I've written articles published in Flyer, Sailplane and Gliding and General Aviation and was also involved in the user guide that was published by Pilot. I was also sponsored by Pilot to present on their stands at Fly, Aerofair and the PFA Rally, at which I also presented in the seminar tent. I know also that FI's have been asked to check that pilots understand how to brief at the biennial revalidation flight.
AvBrief have started a NOTAM briefing service for their members, Ian Fallon has produced NotamPlot and NavBox Pro now incorporates a NOTAM briefing facility. This is on top of other people who have produced software. Here's a few I know about
NotamPlot
NotamPro
Alt AIS
AvBrief
NavBox
Navplot
SPINE
With all this having gone on it is disheartening to hear excuses still being put forward in defence of people who don't brief properly.
Mike
I think we all agree that not enough people brief properly. I'll accept that in the early days of the site it didn't work too well and was poorly documented. (I was one of seven who filed MOR's on the subject) However great improvements have been made since then and the Web Site User Guide produced in April as now excellent.
A lot has been done also to educate people. I've written articles published in Flyer, Sailplane and Gliding and General Aviation and was also involved in the user guide that was published by Pilot. I was also sponsored by Pilot to present on their stands at Fly, Aerofair and the PFA Rally, at which I also presented in the seminar tent. I know also that FI's have been asked to check that pilots understand how to brief at the biennial revalidation flight.
AvBrief have started a NOTAM briefing service for their members, Ian Fallon has produced NotamPlot and NavBox Pro now incorporates a NOTAM briefing facility. This is on top of other people who have produced software. Here's a few I know about
NotamPlot
NotamPro
Alt AIS
AvBrief
NavBox
Navplot
SPINE
With all this having gone on it is disheartening to hear excuses still being put forward in defence of people who don't brief properly.
Mike
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Mike
Maybe excuses should not be made for pilots that don’t self brief and maybe with all the changes you have highlighted and the publicity given, things will improve - I hope so.
Good luck with your meeting.
Maybe excuses should not be made for pilots that don’t self brief and maybe with all the changes you have highlighted and the publicity given, things will improve - I hope so.
Good luck with your meeting.
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Originally Posted by Sweet FA
I have personally found AOPA to be poor value for money for a number of reasons. I think for the reasons I have said, in this case their lobbying is misguided.
How can you have an opinion on an association you are not a member of?
Originally Posted by Sweet FA
I would passionately like to see more pilots pre-brief properly. I perceive this to be a serious issue for GA and one for which I beleive we should all work together to find a solution.
Originally Posted by Sweet FA
I appreciate you may not agree with the issues I have raised. I would enjoy any constructive comments you may have to make. I assume you also find the existing arrangements satisfactory and would like to know why you feel so many pilots do not pre-brief.
I do find existing "arrangements" satisfactory, in as much as I am able to brief on NOTAMS and Weather from the comfort of my home, and in all it takes about 10 minutes so is not onerous. It takes me longer to boil the kettle to make my tea which I drink whilst reading NOTAM printouts and weather reports.
The only wish I have is that the AIS website would be more stable. But Mike tells us this is in hand, and I believe him.
I have no opinion on what other pilots do as I have no direct knowledge of it - any sampling I have done would be statistically insignificant as I do not fly with hundreds of other PPLs, maybe tens and they all brief the same way I do.
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Lest one forgets, so these would all be satisfied users then. Just from this thread, every one a different user (apologies if I did include a duplicate).
And I don’t mind if you refer to me as sweet FA if you feel it amuses you!
“Absolutely agree with Fuji that the single most important issue has to be a re-vamp to the Notam system which encourages people to read them.”
“The website is difficult to use, impossible to trust and if its not down then it takes you ages to sift out the Cardiff notams when flying overBrighton!!!
I have given up totally on the website, the problem is when i call AIS they think there is no problem at all and are in fact proud of the user interface. “
“And it looks like it was developed / designed by someone who learnt computers back in the 70s/80s and didn't bother updating their skills!”
“Those who wish or require airspace to be restricted (or used in a 'non-conventional' manner) should pay for the priviledge and the consequent requirement of notifying other airspace users of the restriction.”
“This is a useless excuse. NATS are responsible for safe and efficient airspace operation and have no business supporting unconnected and non-revenue-generating (for NATS) commercial information providers.”
“All I would say is that if they want someone who knows how to build fast, simple yet comprehensive facilities for display data on a website”
“This is isn't the first time i've encountered it either. Given the importance the CAA places on not flying without current notams, shouldn't system reliabilty be slightly higher up the list of priorities?”
“Incidentally, the AIS website has an out-of-date chart catalogue”
“A decent graphical user interface is the way ahead. And there is indeed no excuse for the inability of a national provider such as AIS to come up with a 21st Century method of displaying NOTAMs on an electronic chart.”
“The whole idea of the radius of influence is that only NOTAMS that affect a proposed route are displayed. The AIS incorrect use of the figures causes many of the problems.”
“Like many others, I have given up using the AIS website - it is simply too user 'unfriendly' I now get my NOTAMS from other sources. Please just make it easier to use. - thats about it for now.”
“I have heard it said that in only 50% of flights by private owners have any Notams been checked, and no wonder! “
“Been on the AIS site for a short local flight this evening and some general handling. I personally don't think the AIS site is that bad... until I read this... “
“If only I could view current NOTAMS..”
“But doesn't that just reinforce the point - that safety critical information should be designed to be easily understood by those to whom it is important.”
(PS thats five more than your ten and none of then know you)
And I don’t mind if you refer to me as sweet FA if you feel it amuses you!
“Absolutely agree with Fuji that the single most important issue has to be a re-vamp to the Notam system which encourages people to read them.”
“The website is difficult to use, impossible to trust and if its not down then it takes you ages to sift out the Cardiff notams when flying overBrighton!!!
I have given up totally on the website, the problem is when i call AIS they think there is no problem at all and are in fact proud of the user interface. “
“And it looks like it was developed / designed by someone who learnt computers back in the 70s/80s and didn't bother updating their skills!”
“Those who wish or require airspace to be restricted (or used in a 'non-conventional' manner) should pay for the priviledge and the consequent requirement of notifying other airspace users of the restriction.”
“This is a useless excuse. NATS are responsible for safe and efficient airspace operation and have no business supporting unconnected and non-revenue-generating (for NATS) commercial information providers.”
“All I would say is that if they want someone who knows how to build fast, simple yet comprehensive facilities for display data on a website”
“This is isn't the first time i've encountered it either. Given the importance the CAA places on not flying without current notams, shouldn't system reliabilty be slightly higher up the list of priorities?”
“Incidentally, the AIS website has an out-of-date chart catalogue”
“A decent graphical user interface is the way ahead. And there is indeed no excuse for the inability of a national provider such as AIS to come up with a 21st Century method of displaying NOTAMs on an electronic chart.”
“The whole idea of the radius of influence is that only NOTAMS that affect a proposed route are displayed. The AIS incorrect use of the figures causes many of the problems.”
“Like many others, I have given up using the AIS website - it is simply too user 'unfriendly' I now get my NOTAMS from other sources. Please just make it easier to use. - thats about it for now.”
“I have heard it said that in only 50% of flights by private owners have any Notams been checked, and no wonder! “
“Been on the AIS site for a short local flight this evening and some general handling. I personally don't think the AIS site is that bad... until I read this... “
“If only I could view current NOTAMS..”
“But doesn't that just reinforce the point - that safety critical information should be designed to be easily understood by those to whom it is important.”
(PS thats five more than your ten and none of then know you)
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 17th Jul 2006 at 17:00.
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
I have to admit I don’t fully understand the comment. Maybe a bit too pithy for me. However if you are suggesting not much, remind me how you would value the goodwill arising from the Government “favouring” NATS with the contract. Remind me what "commitments" were made by the “private” investors with regards to any future sale of their shares.
Well to all intents and purposes it is.
Diddly squat comes from the government in terms of funding.
The airfield side of the business is going out and winning contracts, Gibraltar and Bristol recently.
The area side of the business, as a monopoly supplier, operates under strict price controls from the regulator. There is no cross subsidising.
The only funding is user fees, of which I suspect you pay none.
I'm not sure which contract you think NATS is being favoured with, if it's the AIS one I'm sure as PR has already said, it would make little or no difference to NATS whether they have that particular contract from the CAA or not. Otherwise what goodwill are we getting from a government that only a short time before they PPP'd us were saying "our air is not for sale"?
The Airline Group said they would not be buying in to NATS for commercial gain. Shame that as the company is now doing so well it is rumoured they are thinking of reneging on that particular commitment.
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To get this into some perspective: if somebody else, in Mongolia for all I care, offered a free website that does a narrow route briefing, we could all use that and never need to use ais.org.uk.
It is already the case that anybody who wants an FIR briefing can get the same data from any of many foreign websites.
All the CAA leaflets, flyers, brochures, AICs, their near-unusable approach plates, etc etc etc, could go on some CAA server. Loading a few gigs of PDFs on a server is no rocket science. Or they could just use ead.eurocontrol.int
I already pay Euro 36/year for homebriefing.com's excellent flight plan filing service, and about £60/year to Avbrief for a collection of UK and European weather services. Then I pay about £60/year for Navbox updates - essential IMV. Most pilots that go places for real pay something like the foregoing, too, even if they fly VFR only.
And some pay way way way more for anything from Jeppesen - I pay £120/year for the paper updates for the UK IFR touring guide alone, plus some other electronic stuff. The Jepp European Jeppview is £1500 or so.
I would have no problem paying say another £20 for a multi-waypoint route briefing service like ais.org.uk offers. In fact I am really suprised that none of the many foreign websites offers a narrow route briefing - is this really so??
It is already the case that anybody who wants an FIR briefing can get the same data from any of many foreign websites.
All the CAA leaflets, flyers, brochures, AICs, their near-unusable approach plates, etc etc etc, could go on some CAA server. Loading a few gigs of PDFs on a server is no rocket science. Or they could just use ead.eurocontrol.int
I already pay Euro 36/year for homebriefing.com's excellent flight plan filing service, and about £60/year to Avbrief for a collection of UK and European weather services. Then I pay about £60/year for Navbox updates - essential IMV. Most pilots that go places for real pay something like the foregoing, too, even if they fly VFR only.
And some pay way way way more for anything from Jeppesen - I pay £120/year for the paper updates for the UK IFR touring guide alone, plus some other electronic stuff. The Jepp European Jeppview is £1500 or so.
I would have no problem paying say another £20 for a multi-waypoint route briefing service like ais.org.uk offers. In fact I am really suprised that none of the many foreign websites offers a narrow route briefing - is this really so??
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The outstanding debt to the Treasury before the private partnership was £330 million pounds.
Following the partnership a further £130 million was invested split equally between BAA and the government.
Excluding bank loans and unsecured loans the latest published accounts reveal over £700 million of other bonds and secured loans.
I leave you to guess the combined debt to the Treasury.
The Treasury also has invested its equity interest in NATS Holdings Limited. If you believe the following extract from the Times you can work out for yourself what that might be worth.
“THE future of air traffic control in the UK was plunged into doubt yesterday amid reports that a number of airlines planned to sell their stake in National Air Traffic Services in a highly controversial move.
A Sunday newspaper said members of The Airline Group, which is made up of British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, BMI British Midland, easyJet, MyTravel Airways, Monarch and Thomsonfly, were looking at offloading the group's 42% share of Nats it acquired in 2001.
The plan needs the backing of six of the seven airlines.
It is thought the sale is being pushed by the three charter airlines, MyTravel, Monarch and Thomsonfly, as they look to cash in on the high level of demand for infrastructure businesses.
The airlines paid around £6.6m each for an equal 6% share of Nats but could now fetch up to £36m each.
Virgin director of communications Paul Charles said: "We are not selling our stake." Mr Charles said, if the other airlines did decide to sell, Virgin would consider buying their shares.
British Airways said the report was "speculation" while MyTravel and BMI declined to comment. Monarch, Thomsonfly and easyJet were unavailable.”
And then there is the ten year contract from the CAA to NATS for the provision of en route services. Who owns the CAA?
Seems to me us tax payers have a reasonable investment in this private enterprise and there could be those who might say us non commercial users might object to paying fees and expect a little return on our investment.
Following the partnership a further £130 million was invested split equally between BAA and the government.
Excluding bank loans and unsecured loans the latest published accounts reveal over £700 million of other bonds and secured loans.
I leave you to guess the combined debt to the Treasury.
The Treasury also has invested its equity interest in NATS Holdings Limited. If you believe the following extract from the Times you can work out for yourself what that might be worth.
“THE future of air traffic control in the UK was plunged into doubt yesterday amid reports that a number of airlines planned to sell their stake in National Air Traffic Services in a highly controversial move.
A Sunday newspaper said members of The Airline Group, which is made up of British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, BMI British Midland, easyJet, MyTravel Airways, Monarch and Thomsonfly, were looking at offloading the group's 42% share of Nats it acquired in 2001.
The plan needs the backing of six of the seven airlines.
It is thought the sale is being pushed by the three charter airlines, MyTravel, Monarch and Thomsonfly, as they look to cash in on the high level of demand for infrastructure businesses.
The airlines paid around £6.6m each for an equal 6% share of Nats but could now fetch up to £36m each.
Virgin director of communications Paul Charles said: "We are not selling our stake." Mr Charles said, if the other airlines did decide to sell, Virgin would consider buying their shares.
British Airways said the report was "speculation" while MyTravel and BMI declined to comment. Monarch, Thomsonfly and easyJet were unavailable.”
And then there is the ten year contract from the CAA to NATS for the provision of en route services. Who owns the CAA?
Seems to me us tax payers have a reasonable investment in this private enterprise and there could be those who might say us non commercial users might object to paying fees and expect a little return on our investment.
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I cant argue against it. Personally, as I said before it just completely baffles me why you would want to bother doing anything about it - you must be mad, or got nothing better to do with your time.
PS - real professionals, or aviators who do their homework, ignore the above
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
I leave you to guess the combined debt to the Treasury.
As a taxpayer you got your reward at the time of the PPP.
As a user continue to make hay while the sun shines.
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"As a user continue to make hay while the sun shines."
.. .. .. and as a taxpayer we can expect to continue enjoying our half share.
Of course it will be very interesting to see if there was a down turn in the avaition industry again (when last time the taxpayer bailed you lot out) whether your new partners will be as keen to do so.
.. .. .. and so back to the matter in hand. Who was it who said
"I have given up totally on the website, the problem is when i call AIS they think there is no problem at all and are in fact proud of the user interface."
It wasnt me.
"Based on that, hopefully the GA community will now appreciate my refusal to offer approval for anything, be it photo surveys, trials, para drops, aerobatic displays, or anything else. Don't bother calling me as ACC Supervisor (N of Manchester), because Fuji says it ain't worth it"
No surprises there then. Still glad us lot own half of you lot though .
.. .. .. and as a taxpayer we can expect to continue enjoying our half share.
Of course it will be very interesting to see if there was a down turn in the avaition industry again (when last time the taxpayer bailed you lot out) whether your new partners will be as keen to do so.
.. .. .. and so back to the matter in hand. Who was it who said
"I have given up totally on the website, the problem is when i call AIS they think there is no problem at all and are in fact proud of the user interface."
It wasnt me.
"Based on that, hopefully the GA community will now appreciate my refusal to offer approval for anything, be it photo surveys, trials, para drops, aerobatic displays, or anything else. Don't bother calling me as ACC Supervisor (N of Manchester), because Fuji says it ain't worth it"
No surprises there then. Still glad us lot own half of you lot though
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Originally Posted by rustle
Is it on the AIS website? I am usually able to get things from there except when it is crashing
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bpilatus
That URL is a windup. The text of the page is
FLIGHT RADIO TELEPHONY OPERATOR’S LICENCE
AND/OR AIRCREW LICENCE OF ANY TYPE
SELF CERTIFICATION AS UNFIT TO HOLD LICENCE
Please complete the form in BLOCK CAPITALS using black or dark blue ink. You may need an
adult to help you with this form. Please remember your manners if you ask for help.
1. PERSONAL DETAILS (This information is about YOU, not one of your pets)
Personal reference number (if known)
Surname (this might be your father’s last name, but is more likely to be your mother’s last name – example: Smith)
............................................................ .............................
Forename (this is possibly what an adult calls you when they want you)
............................................................ .......................
Title (Unfortunately our computers do not allow “Idiot”, “Tosser” or “Numbnuts” here)
............................................................ ......................................
Your address (where do you live – if you have forgotten your address it might be written on the tag hanging around your neck.)
etc
2. DECLARATION
I declare that I read something on an online internet forum and I was just a bit too dumb to understand anything that
was being said, despite great efforts from people trying to assist me.
I request the CAA to immediately withdraw any licenses I hold as I am obviously too stupid to hold any sort or aviation
license or qualification whatsoever.
Signature (or thumb print) ............................................................ ............................
Date ............................................................ ....................................
That URL is a windup. The text of the page is
FLIGHT RADIO TELEPHONY OPERATOR’S LICENCE
AND/OR AIRCREW LICENCE OF ANY TYPE
SELF CERTIFICATION AS UNFIT TO HOLD LICENCE
Please complete the form in BLOCK CAPITALS using black or dark blue ink. You may need an
adult to help you with this form. Please remember your manners if you ask for help.
1. PERSONAL DETAILS (This information is about YOU, not one of your pets)
Personal reference number (if known)
Surname (this might be your father’s last name, but is more likely to be your mother’s last name – example: Smith)
............................................................ .............................
Forename (this is possibly what an adult calls you when they want you)
............................................................ .......................
Title (Unfortunately our computers do not allow “Idiot”, “Tosser” or “Numbnuts” here)
............................................................ ......................................
Your address (where do you live – if you have forgotten your address it might be written on the tag hanging around your neck.)
etc
2. DECLARATION
I declare that I read something on an online internet forum and I was just a bit too dumb to understand anything that
was being said, despite great efforts from people trying to assist me.
I request the CAA to immediately withdraw any licenses I hold as I am obviously too stupid to hold any sort or aviation
license or qualification whatsoever.
Signature (or thumb print) ............................................................ ............................
Date ............................................................ ....................................
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Originally Posted by IO540
bpilatus
That URL is a windup. The text of the page is
F
That URL is a windup. The text of the page is
F
I remember some forms from when we discussed AIS some years ago, but this I don't think is one of those forms
