AIS Consultation Meeting 8 Aug
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Originally Posted by IO540
I also don't understand the colour codes: pink, mauve, white etc. It sounds like some colour markers that WW1 generals would stick on the battlefield model in their bunker, and that's probably where it comes from. But we've already had WW2, quite a while ago......
DFC
Homebriefing doesn't provide a narrow route briefing. The NRB is the key to removing cr*p from notam listings.
DFC
Homebriefing doesn't provide a narrow route briefing. The NRB is the key to removing cr*p from notam listings.
Yellow - Operational
Pink - Safety
Green - Charts
Mauve - Airspace Restrictions.
A very simple way of permitting quick access to the desired information. A bit lost on new pilots who have perhaps never seen them on anything other than a screen.
Home briefing does provide a narrow route breifing. It has to be based on a flight plan you filed. If you don't file plans you will indeed find it hard to get a decent briefing. Most serious flying results in flight plans so no problem then.
Regards,
DFC
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Home briefing does provide a narrow route breifing. It has to be based on a flight plan you filed. If you don't file plans you will indeed find it hard to get a decent briefing. Most serious flying results in flight plans so no problem then.
Funny that; I wrote to them recently asking if they do a route-based "track width" briefing and they said it is planned but not there yet.
What they do provide, as do many other websites, is a briefing based on a straight line from departure to destination.
This isn't too bad for IFR/airways, where you do need the airfield notams (closed runways, etc) but enroute stuff is not so important because a) you are under radar control and b) you won't usually fly the filed route anyway.
The other thing is that if Homebriefing did indeed do an ais-type NRB, but you had to file an ICAO flight plan to get it (as you suggest), that wouldn't be any good for most UK flying, which is what probably 99% of UK VFR PPLs do, and no ICAO flight plan is needed for that.
I am afraid we are stuck with ais.org.uk and we have to make the best of it. Some small improvements will come no doubt but basically pilots will have to learn to read and discard the dross. It is a very quick process really.
Funny that; I wrote to them recently asking if they do a route-based "track width" briefing and they said it is planned but not there yet.
What they do provide, as do many other websites, is a briefing based on a straight line from departure to destination.
This isn't too bad for IFR/airways, where you do need the airfield notams (closed runways, etc) but enroute stuff is not so important because a) you are under radar control and b) you won't usually fly the filed route anyway.
The other thing is that if Homebriefing did indeed do an ais-type NRB, but you had to file an ICAO flight plan to get it (as you suggest), that wouldn't be any good for most UK flying, which is what probably 99% of UK VFR PPLs do, and no ICAO flight plan is needed for that.
I am afraid we are stuck with ais.org.uk and we have to make the best of it. Some small improvements will come no doubt but basically pilots will have to learn to read and discard the dross. It is a very quick process really.
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Originally Posted by Mike Cross
WRT alternative presentations. The full text of the Q Line has for some months been included in briefings. This was done at my request and allows anyone who wants to to write software that will allow users to filter and display the information in ways that are not possible using the AIS site, including graphically. I'm not aware of anyone using it that way yet but the way is open. Prior to this you could only get the Q Line via a NATS feed from AIS which was beyond the reach of the end-user. Avbrief generously made a feed available for Ian Fallon's NotamPlot and offered it free also to any other producer of free software. It's no longer necessary for them to do so as the data can now be obtained direct from AIS. The addition of the automated login will allow the process to be made seamless from the user's point of view.
Mike
Mike
There are at least two free graphical NOTAM display programs using the Q-line information - Jeff Goodenough's SPINE software (http://www.enborne.f2s.com/gliding/spine.htm) and my own NavPlot software (http://www.freeflight.org.uk/software/) Many thanks for your efforts to persuade AIS to include this data.
Although the inclusion of Q-line data is of enormous help when writing this kind of software it would be better still if the data could be delivered in a more "machine friendly" way. At the moment the data is still presented in a format intended for a pilot to read it using a web browser, but this makes it a bit tricky for the software to read the data.
If you could use you presuade AIS to add a mechanism to download data (raw text, no filtering) for use by this kind of software that would be terrific.
Thanks,
Alan.
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Hi Alan
I'm very glad to hear that it is being made use of. I'd feel a bit of a twazzock if everyone had ignored it.
It is possible to get a feed of the raw data but it's not designed for end users, more for ANSP's (Air Navigation Service Providers) like Avbrief. NATS, not unnaturally, are a bit choosy about who they allow to connect directly and run queries on their servers.
The concept behind what you are making use of runs like this:-
1. AIS provides data to a defined standard using an ISO 9000 acredditted Quality Sytem directly to the end user. The data that has been provide can be reproduced in the event of any query, allowing the cause of any problems that might arise to be determined. The Quality System undergoes independent scrutiny by the acredditation body a minimum of two times each year.
2. What the user does with that data once it has been delivered is his/her responsibility.
If the data is provided to a third party organisation which then provides it to an end user that organisation becomes an ANSP and is likley to require certification under the European Commission's "common requirements for air navigation service providers".
Some details are available here.
Hope that makes some sense.
Mike
PS Thales today uploaded a patch to the Web Server designed to eliminate the "500 Error" problem that has been present of late. If anyone continues to receive this error please let me know.
I'm very glad to hear that it is being made use of. I'd feel a bit of a twazzock if everyone had ignored it.
It is possible to get a feed of the raw data but it's not designed for end users, more for ANSP's (Air Navigation Service Providers) like Avbrief. NATS, not unnaturally, are a bit choosy about who they allow to connect directly and run queries on their servers.
The concept behind what you are making use of runs like this:-
1. AIS provides data to a defined standard using an ISO 9000 acredditted Quality Sytem directly to the end user. The data that has been provide can be reproduced in the event of any query, allowing the cause of any problems that might arise to be determined. The Quality System undergoes independent scrutiny by the acredditation body a minimum of two times each year.
2. What the user does with that data once it has been delivered is his/her responsibility.
If the data is provided to a third party organisation which then provides it to an end user that organisation becomes an ANSP and is likley to require certification under the European Commission's "common requirements for air navigation service providers".
Some details are available here.
Hope that makes some sense.
Mike
PS Thales today uploaded a patch to the Web Server designed to eliminate the "500 Error" problem that has been present of late. If anyone continues to receive this error please let me know.
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The data that has been provide can be reproduced in the event of any query, allowing the cause of any problems that might arise to be determined
Q: does the system store the actual text of the briefing one gets?
If so, how long for?
I happen to know that if you do an alleged TRA infringement in France (on a flight originating from the UK, for example) then you hear nothing for up to 6 months, at which point you get a letter from the CAA saying the DGAC asked them who the pilot was, etc.
So AIS would need to retain all briefings for at least that long, to be useful. Probably for a year. That's a lot of data.
Q: does the system store the actual text of the briefing one gets?
If so, how long for?
I happen to know that if you do an alleged TRA infringement in France (on a flight originating from the UK, for example) then you hear nothing for up to 6 months, at which point you get a letter from the CAA saying the DGAC asked them who the pilot was, etc.
So AIS would need to retain all briefings for at least that long, to be useful. Probably for a year. That's a lot of data.
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It is.
If you look at the top of your brief you'll find a number like this R1201538
That's the identification number.
Knowing your login details and the approx date and time you took the brief AIS can find it. This could just save your bacon if you were accused of not briefing or of infringing something that wasn't in your brief. I understand that the data is routinely pulled as evidence in the event of an investigation.
Of course some find the idea of strangers rummaging in their briefs distasteful
I don't know how long they are kept for but I'm willing to bet that somewhere there are some archive tapes going back a long time.
Mike
If you look at the top of your brief you'll find a number like this R1201538
That's the identification number.
Knowing your login details and the approx date and time you took the brief AIS can find it. This could just save your bacon if you were accused of not briefing or of infringing something that wasn't in your brief. I understand that the data is routinely pulled as evidence in the event of an investigation.
Of course some find the idea of strangers rummaging in their briefs distasteful
I don't know how long they are kept for but I'm willing to bet that somewhere there are some archive tapes going back a long time.
Mike
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Supplementary follow up
Someone from NATS has kindly provided the information that the ICAO requirement is for the data to kept 30 days. Any request for the info to be pulled would normally be made within that period. In practice it's kept for 90 days.
Mike
Someone from NATS has kindly provided the information that the ICAO requirement is for the data to kept 30 days. Any request for the info to be pulled would normally be made within that period. In practice it's kept for 90 days.
Mike
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Originally Posted by DFC
White - Admin
Yellow - Operational
Pink - Safety
Green - Charts
Mauve - Airspace Restrictions.
A very simple way of permitting quick access to the desired information.
Yellow - Operational
Pink - Safety
Green - Charts
Mauve - Airspace Restrictions.
A very simple way of permitting quick access to the desired information.
By all means print the AICs on appropriate coloured paper but why not list them on the AIS drop down menus under those category names. If I want to find an AIC about an airspace restriction, I'd like to click on AIP->AICs->Airspace Restrictions, not have to look up or try to remember which colour is which.
Also, can we have an index of AICs ordered and listed by date? There's an attempt here but it's still not easy to check on the ones that have been issued since your last visit. (That page could also benefit from naming the categories of AIC).
I also wonder whether AIS could provide an email notification service where you could register an email address and every month or so, you'd be emailed a simple list of new AICs with their titles (and links to download them).
The same could apply to the AIP changes: just a simple list of the ADs that have had their entries changed, plus a direct link to look at the new information. I know there's the AIRAC changes document but that's absolutely huge because it includes all the changed pages rather than just referencing them. I keep a collection of IAP plates for possible diversion ADs and would love to be able to know when I need to update them. Similarly, I'd like to be aware of any significant changes to facilities etc. at ADs I visit regularly.
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Case In Point
Chaps,
Been on the AIS site for a short local flight this evening and some general handling. I personally don't think the AIS site is that bad... until I read this... I bet £100 that the Farnborough space gets busted several times... no wonder!
For christ's sake!
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/050/5117N00047W017
A)EGLF FROM 06/07/10 08:00 TO 06/07/24 16:00 J2619/06
E) AUS 06-07-0004/2124/DAPLC
FARNBOROUGH INTERNATIONAL AIRSHOW. THIS NOTAM AMENDS AIC 66/2006
(MAUVE 187) TIMES FOR AREAS 8 AND 9 ON 21 JUL AND AREAS 1-7 ON 23 JUL
. RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE ANO
2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552 201.135.9). SUBJECT TO
PARAGRAPH 12 NO ACFT SHALL FLY WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREAS DURING
PERIODS DETAILED AT PARAGRAPHS 10 AND 11.
1. AREA 1. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 12NM CENTRED AT
512812N 0002713W EXTENDING FROM 512431N 0004525W TO 512104N
0004242W THEN STRAIGHT LINES 512013N 0003800W 512013N 0003515W
THEN CLOCKWISE ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W
EXTENDING FROM 512013N 0003515W TO 512431N 0004525W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE SFC - BASE OF CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (BOCAS)
2. AREA 2. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512013N 0003515W 512013N 0003106W
511656N 0002821W 511503N 0003404W THEN ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A
CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W EXTENDING FROM
511503N 0003404W TO 512013N 0003515W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 1500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
3. AREA 3. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N
0004635W EXTENDING FROM 511250N 0005751W TO 510929N 0004037W THEN
STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 510929N 0004037W 510652N 0004829W 510905N
0005856W 511250N 0005751W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 2500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
4. AREA 4. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 510518N 0010000W 510905N 0005856W
510652N 0004829W 510518N 0010000W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 3500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
5. AREA 5. STRAIGHT LINE JOINING 512430N 0010000W-512314N 0005333W
THEN ANTI-CLOCKWISE BY ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N
0004635W EXTENDING FROM 512314N 0005333W TO 511250N 0005751W THEN
STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 511250N 0005751W 511836N 0010241W 512430N
0010000W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 2500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
6. AREA 6. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512500N 0010805W 512430N 0010000W
511836N 0010241W 512500N 0010805W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 3500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
7. AREA 7. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512500N 0010805W 511250N 0005751W
510518N 0010000W 512500N 0010805W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 4500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
8. AREA 8. CIRCLE RAD 5NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE SFC TO BOCAS.
9. AREA 9. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 12NM CENTRED AT
512812N 0002713W EXTENDING FROM 512255N 0004426W TO 512104N
0004242W THEN STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512104N 0004242W 512013N
0003800W 512013N 0003106W 511656N 0002821W 510913N 0005137W THEN
CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W
EXTENDING FROM 510913N 0005137W TO 511801N 0005906W THEN STRAIGHT
LINE JOINING 511801N 0005906W 512255N 0004426W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 1500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
10. AREAS 1-7 ACTIVE 10-14 JUL 0800-1800 DAILY
NOTE ADDITIONAL ACTIVITY AREA 1 ON 15 JUL 0800-1200 WILL BE ACTIVATED
BY NOTAM IF REQUIRED.
17 JUL 1315-1515
18-20 JUL 1300-1600 DAILY
21 JUL 1215-1615
22 JUL 1130-1645
23 JUL 1130-1645 (AMENDS AIC)
11. AREAS 8 AND 9 ACTIVE
17 JUL 0700-1315 AND 1515-1900
18-20 JUL 0700-1300 AND 1600-1900 DAILY
21 JUL 0700-1215 AND 1615-1900 (AMENDS AIC)
22 JUL 0700-1130 AND 1645-180023 JUL 0700-1300 AND 1645-1800
24 JUL 0700-1600
12. EXCEPT ACFT FLYING WITH A CLEARANCE FROM ATC FARNBOROUGH AND ANY
AICRAFT FLYING WITHIN NOTIFIED CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.
AIC 66/2006 (MAUVE 187) REFERS. SEE SEPARATE NOTAMS FOR RED ARROWS
DISPLAYS.
F)SFC G)5000FT AMSL
Been on the AIS site for a short local flight this evening and some general handling. I personally don't think the AIS site is that bad... until I read this... I bet £100 that the Farnborough space gets busted several times... no wonder!
For christ's sake!
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/050/5117N00047W017
A)EGLF FROM 06/07/10 08:00 TO 06/07/24 16:00 J2619/06
E) AUS 06-07-0004/2124/DAPLC
FARNBOROUGH INTERNATIONAL AIRSHOW. THIS NOTAM AMENDS AIC 66/2006
(MAUVE 187) TIMES FOR AREAS 8 AND 9 ON 21 JUL AND AREAS 1-7 ON 23 JUL
. RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE ANO
2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552 201.135.9). SUBJECT TO
PARAGRAPH 12 NO ACFT SHALL FLY WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREAS DURING
PERIODS DETAILED AT PARAGRAPHS 10 AND 11.
1. AREA 1. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 12NM CENTRED AT
512812N 0002713W EXTENDING FROM 512431N 0004525W TO 512104N
0004242W THEN STRAIGHT LINES 512013N 0003800W 512013N 0003515W
THEN CLOCKWISE ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W
EXTENDING FROM 512013N 0003515W TO 512431N 0004525W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE SFC - BASE OF CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (BOCAS)
2. AREA 2. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512013N 0003515W 512013N 0003106W
511656N 0002821W 511503N 0003404W THEN ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A
CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W EXTENDING FROM
511503N 0003404W TO 512013N 0003515W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 1500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
3. AREA 3. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N
0004635W EXTENDING FROM 511250N 0005751W TO 510929N 0004037W THEN
STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 510929N 0004037W 510652N 0004829W 510905N
0005856W 511250N 0005751W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 2500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
4. AREA 4. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 510518N 0010000W 510905N 0005856W
510652N 0004829W 510518N 0010000W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 3500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
5. AREA 5. STRAIGHT LINE JOINING 512430N 0010000W-512314N 0005333W
THEN ANTI-CLOCKWISE BY ARC OF CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N
0004635W EXTENDING FROM 512314N 0005333W TO 511250N 0005751W THEN
STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 511250N 0005751W 511836N 0010241W 512430N
0010000W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 2500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
6. AREA 6. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512500N 0010805W 512430N 0010000W
511836N 0010241W 512500N 0010805W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 3500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
7. AREA 7. STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512500N 0010805W 511250N 0005751W
510518N 0010000W 512500N 0010805W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 4500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
8. AREA 8. CIRCLE RAD 5NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE SFC TO BOCAS.
9. AREA 9. ANTI-CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 12NM CENTRED AT
512812N 0002713W EXTENDING FROM 512255N 0004426W TO 512104N
0004242W THEN STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 512104N 0004242W 512013N
0003800W 512013N 0003106W 511656N 0002821W 510913N 0005137W THEN
CLOCKWISE ARC OF A CIRCLE RAD 8NM CENTRED AT 511633N 0004635W
EXTENDING FROM 510913N 0005137W TO 511801N 0005906W THEN STRAIGHT
LINE JOINING 511801N 0005906W 512255N 0004426W.
VERTICAL LIMITS ARE 1500FT ALT TO BOCAS.
10. AREAS 1-7 ACTIVE 10-14 JUL 0800-1800 DAILY
NOTE ADDITIONAL ACTIVITY AREA 1 ON 15 JUL 0800-1200 WILL BE ACTIVATED
BY NOTAM IF REQUIRED.
17 JUL 1315-1515
18-20 JUL 1300-1600 DAILY
21 JUL 1215-1615
22 JUL 1130-1645
23 JUL 1130-1645 (AMENDS AIC)
11. AREAS 8 AND 9 ACTIVE
17 JUL 0700-1315 AND 1515-1900
18-20 JUL 0700-1300 AND 1600-1900 DAILY
21 JUL 0700-1215 AND 1615-1900 (AMENDS AIC)
22 JUL 0700-1130 AND 1645-180023 JUL 0700-1300 AND 1645-1800
24 JUL 0700-1600
12. EXCEPT ACFT FLYING WITH A CLEARANCE FROM ATC FARNBOROUGH AND ANY
AICRAFT FLYING WITHIN NOTIFIED CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.
AIC 66/2006 (MAUVE 187) REFERS. SEE SEPARATE NOTAMS FOR RED ARROWS
DISPLAYS.
F)SFC G)5000FT AMSL
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In all fairness, that NOTAM does look dreadful, and no one would plot it out.
However, I decided to follow it......and it took me less than 30 seconds to log in and find the referanced AIC, which had a nice chart showing the airspace.
Now that's not a lot of use, if you're reading your notams as you drive to the airport, from the pages you printed off earlier, but if you're still at the PC it's not much of an issue.
In doing this, I did also see that the AIS site DOES give a description of what each colour AIC is about, and groups them together.
dp
However, I decided to follow it......and it took me less than 30 seconds to log in and find the referanced AIC, which had a nice chart showing the airspace.
Now that's not a lot of use, if you're reading your notams as you drive to the airport, from the pages you printed off earlier, but if you're still at the PC it's not much of an issue.
In doing this, I did also see that the AIS site DOES give a description of what each colour AIC is about, and groups them together.
dp
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Can't really win with the Farnborough TRA - simplest would be to draw a (big) circle around Farnborough and make that a TRA, but then people complain it is taking up too much space.
So they plotted the minimum they need and that makes it harder to visualise and harder for NotamPlot et al to draw.
(Once you see the picture in the AIC then it's easy to see what's happening)
What would you prefer they do in 2008?
So they plotted the minimum they need and that makes it harder to visualise and harder for NotamPlot et al to draw.
(Once you see the picture in the AIC then it's easy to see what's happening)
What would you prefer they do in 2008?
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Yes that Farnborough notam looks dreadful. The RIAT one (run by Brize) is similar.
But the smart thing to do there is to get onto ais.org.uk and print off the AIC referred to. It doesn't take long to find it - assuming the pilot is internet-savvy which many aren't (especially the "older" sort). There is a nice picture in there. But I am certain the majority of UK PPL-level pilots have never heard of ais.org,uk and won't hear anything about it either 10 years from now.
The notam should contain a short URL to the document.
Someone from NATS has kindly provided the information that the ICAO requirement is for the data to kept 30 days. Any request for the info to be pulled would normally be made within that period. In practice it's kept for 90 days.
Nowhere near long enough for what the French have been known to get up to
Clearly the solution, for anyone flying in France, is to print out the notam listing and keep it for 1 year (or save it in a file). That's what I do.
But the smart thing to do there is to get onto ais.org.uk and print off the AIC referred to. It doesn't take long to find it - assuming the pilot is internet-savvy which many aren't (especially the "older" sort). There is a nice picture in there. But I am certain the majority of UK PPL-level pilots have never heard of ais.org,uk and won't hear anything about it either 10 years from now.
The notam should contain a short URL to the document.
Someone from NATS has kindly provided the information that the ICAO requirement is for the data to kept 30 days. Any request for the info to be pulled would normally be made within that period. In practice it's kept for 90 days.
Nowhere near long enough for what the French have been known to get up to
Clearly the solution, for anyone flying in France, is to print out the notam listing and keep it for 1 year (or save it in a file). That's what I do.
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"(Once you see the picture in the AIC then it's easy to see what's happening)"
Exactly.
It begs the question as to whether someone at NATS is plotting NOTAMs to verify their accuracy in the first place. If not, how is their accuracy verified?
I have followed this thread with much interest.
Plotting complicated NOTAMs and tracking down AICs should be within the ability of any pilot. However their are few who either dont want to or can be bothered to, and unfortunately a fair few more who dont know how to.
For this reason infringements will continue.
If NATS really want to do anything about it they would address the real issue rather than playing with the presentation of their web site which will achieve - Zilch!
If this information has already been plotted and is therefore in graphical format, as is clearly the case with the Farnborough AIC, it should be published on the NATS web site. There is no excuse for NATS failure to do so.
Exactly.
It begs the question as to whether someone at NATS is plotting NOTAMs to verify their accuracy in the first place. If not, how is their accuracy verified?
I have followed this thread with much interest.
Plotting complicated NOTAMs and tracking down AICs should be within the ability of any pilot. However their are few who either dont want to or can be bothered to, and unfortunately a fair few more who dont know how to.
For this reason infringements will continue.
If NATS really want to do anything about it they would address the real issue rather than playing with the presentation of their web site which will achieve - Zilch!
If this information has already been plotted and is therefore in graphical format, as is clearly the case with the Farnborough AIC, it should be published on the NATS web site. There is no excuse for NATS failure to do so.
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
If this information has already been plotted and is therefore in graphical format, as is clearly the case with the Farnborough AIC, it should be published on the NATS web site. There is no excuse for NATS failure to do so.
It is published on a NATS web site.
AIS is part of NATS. AIS publish the AICs on their web site.
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Fuji - I suspect that somebody "in charge" decides that unless they produce a nice picture, there will be hundreds of infringements of these big and active TRAs, so "somebody in charge" gets off their ar*e and draws the picture.
But the vast majority of things which don't get a picture, probably don't need a picture, because they are stuff like military flying which can be safely ignored (on the grounds that it can happen anywhere).
Of course those "in charge" can't officially say
"we will produce a nice picture only for the stuff that matters"
can they
Rustle - as I have said many times, most pilots have never heard of NATS, never heard of ais.org.uk, many don't use the internet at all, many don't know what "internet" is (they think it is something that lives inside a PC), etc etc etc etc.
But the vast majority of things which don't get a picture, probably don't need a picture, because they are stuff like military flying which can be safely ignored (on the grounds that it can happen anywhere).
Of course those "in charge" can't officially say
"we will produce a nice picture only for the stuff that matters"
can they
Rustle - as I have said many times, most pilots have never heard of NATS, never heard of ais.org.uk, many don't use the internet at all, many don't know what "internet" is (they think it is something that lives inside a PC), etc etc etc etc.
How true!
If NATS and the CAA are to move into the 21st century, let's have an electronic on-line up-to-date CAA 1:500 000 with all amendments plotted.
Then use this to:
1. Display layers of NOTAMs up to the user-specified maximum altitude for the specified date/time of flight.
2. Plan a route between click-and-drop waypoints.
3. Download route, then update the plan for winds-of-the-day prior to flight. These must be incorporated into the same system from the UK Met Office automatically.
4. Print off a summary with track/distance/heading/groundspeed/elapsed times for non-GPS folk.
5. Download the same summary into a USB stick for transfer to an on-aircraft GPS.
Who would pay for all this? The people who get all the tax on AvGas, that's who!
If NATS and the CAA are to move into the 21st century, let's have an electronic on-line up-to-date CAA 1:500 000 with all amendments plotted.
Then use this to:
1. Display layers of NOTAMs up to the user-specified maximum altitude for the specified date/time of flight.
2. Plan a route between click-and-drop waypoints.
3. Download route, then update the plan for winds-of-the-day prior to flight. These must be incorporated into the same system from the UK Met Office automatically.
4. Print off a summary with track/distance/heading/groundspeed/elapsed times for non-GPS folk.
5. Download the same summary into a USB stick for transfer to an on-aircraft GPS.
Who would pay for all this? The people who get all the tax on AvGas, that's who!
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Rustle
Sorry if I was not clear
The point I was seeking to make is that if the information has been plotted (as it has) I can see no excuse for having to look elsewhere for this information. Users will (and you can of course argue rightly or wrongly) look at the NOTAMS, narrow route breifing, by FIR or whatever. In my opinion for the site to work they want to see a pictoral representation of the NOTAM or at least a DIRECT link to the information.
I consider there is no excuse for failure to provide this, particulary since as you say the information is there.
IO540
Absolutely correct.
.. .. .. and I remain interested as to how the NOTAMs for which there is no plot elsewhere are verified. Can the guys there just look at the lat long co-ordinates and "know" they make sense or infact are they "plotted" as part of their own internal verification process. I wonder. Bright guys at NATS - maybe they just need to go on a very basic web design course.
The fact remains infringements are an increasing problem. Either you want to do something about it by improving the training pilots receive, or you want to provide the information in a user freindly way or dont be too surprised the infrigements continue. I am afraid in my opinion the suggestions so far will do nothing to address the problem.
Beagle
Could not have said it better !!!!!
Sorry if I was not clear
The point I was seeking to make is that if the information has been plotted (as it has) I can see no excuse for having to look elsewhere for this information. Users will (and you can of course argue rightly or wrongly) look at the NOTAMS, narrow route breifing, by FIR or whatever. In my opinion for the site to work they want to see a pictoral representation of the NOTAM or at least a DIRECT link to the information.
I consider there is no excuse for failure to provide this, particulary since as you say the information is there.
IO540
Absolutely correct.
.. .. .. and I remain interested as to how the NOTAMs for which there is no plot elsewhere are verified. Can the guys there just look at the lat long co-ordinates and "know" they make sense or infact are they "plotted" as part of their own internal verification process. I wonder. Bright guys at NATS - maybe they just need to go on a very basic web design course.
The fact remains infringements are an increasing problem. Either you want to do something about it by improving the training pilots receive, or you want to provide the information in a user freindly way or dont be too surprised the infrigements continue. I am afraid in my opinion the suggestions so far will do nothing to address the problem.
Beagle
Could not have said it better !!!!!
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Originally Posted by IO540
Rustle - as I have said many times, most pilots have never heard of NATS, never heard of ais.org.uk, many don't use the internet at all, many don't know what "internet" is (they think it is something that lives inside a PC), etc etc etc etc.
I don't know how someone could pass exams without knowing what the AIP, AICs and NOTAMs are or where to get them, but if you say so...
However the person who said
If this information has already been plotted and is therefore in graphical format, as is clearly the case with the Farnborough AIC, it should be published on the NATS web site. There is no excuse for NATS failure to do so.
Borrowing from one of Mike's posts (elsewhere)
Originally Posted by MC
Indeed many [pilots] don't understand the AIRAC Cycle, or the fact that NOTAM are used to provide textual updates to AIP information and AIC's are the mechanism for disseminating information with a graphical content
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Rustle
It seems strange to me that no one wants to see infringements
but
apparently the training is fine and the way NATS provides NOTAMS is fine.
I think the govenrment should change its policy and outlaw speedos in cars, set up more speed cameras, let the drivers guess their speed and relish the additional income from more speed fines.
It is all academic to me becasue fortunately there are some genuinely bright fellas out there who have produced software that plots NOTAMs and strangely enough they are able to do it for free without I guess very many resources at their disposal. Strange NATS cant or that they would not want to compete with commercial providers who are clearly making a great deal of money out of providing this information free of charge.
It seems strange to me that no one wants to see infringements
but
apparently the training is fine and the way NATS provides NOTAMS is fine.
I think the govenrment should change its policy and outlaw speedos in cars, set up more speed cameras, let the drivers guess their speed and relish the additional income from more speed fines.
It is all academic to me becasue fortunately there are some genuinely bright fellas out there who have produced software that plots NOTAMs and strangely enough they are able to do it for free without I guess very many resources at their disposal. Strange NATS cant or that they would not want to compete with commercial providers who are clearly making a great deal of money out of providing this information free of charge.
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Fuji
and I remain interested as to how the NOTAMs for which there is no plot elsewhere are verified
AIUI, the only time anybody "in charge" has a reason to look at the coordinate lists which appear in the notam feed (from Farnborough, or from Mongolia) is when the staff at some air traffic unit comes to work in the morning, at which time they look at the local FIR list and manually plot (onto some big board) anything that affects them.
So I dare say e.g. Solent Radar will know about the Farnborough & Fairford TRAs. (Not that this necessarily stops Farnborough not saying anything while providing an FIS, with a squawk, to a pilot practically to the point where he infringes the Fairford TRA, and don't ask me how I know that )
So, there are lots and lots of fairly well paid people already plotting lots of coordinate lists.... so, here's a marketing idea for NATS: centralise it, using a website!
Beagle
The interesting point is that a lot of it can be done without extra cost.
Rustle
That may or may not be the case.
I bet you it is the case. The average old codger in this business, or any other business, wouldn't know what "internet" is if it poked him in the eye. (Of course anybody reading this will find this comment offensive - because they are on the internet). Also, nearly all PPLs drop out within a few years, so a lot of people that fly did their training in a completely different age; 10,20,30 years ago. A lot of pilots are like those Japanese soldiers that lived in the jungles for many years, never realising WW2 had ended. The farm strip scene is like that.
I don't know how someone could pass exams without knowing what the AIP, AICs and NOTAMs are or where to get them, but if you say so...
I had never heard of the AIP, AIC when having my PPL, and notams were something that got pinned onto the notice board, and the instructor had a quick look each morning. This was in 2000. My info is that this is the standard system around the UK. So even new pilots aren't taught the info
The basic statistical point here is that the vast majority of pilots have never done a major bust. You need only a small minority to fly around without the information and you will get the hundreds of major busts that take place in the UK each year.
I agree with you that improving the website facilities won't help many pilots because they know nothing about it to start with.
and I remain interested as to how the NOTAMs for which there is no plot elsewhere are verified
AIUI, the only time anybody "in charge" has a reason to look at the coordinate lists which appear in the notam feed (from Farnborough, or from Mongolia) is when the staff at some air traffic unit comes to work in the morning, at which time they look at the local FIR list and manually plot (onto some big board) anything that affects them.
So I dare say e.g. Solent Radar will know about the Farnborough & Fairford TRAs. (Not that this necessarily stops Farnborough not saying anything while providing an FIS, with a squawk, to a pilot practically to the point where he infringes the Fairford TRA, and don't ask me how I know that
)So, there are lots and lots of fairly well paid people already plotting lots of coordinate lists.... so, here's a marketing idea for NATS: centralise it, using a website!
Beagle
The interesting point is that a lot of it can be done without extra cost.
Rustle
That may or may not be the case.
I bet you it is the case. The average old codger in this business, or any other business, wouldn't know what "internet" is if it poked him in the eye. (Of course anybody reading this will find this comment offensive - because they are on the internet). Also, nearly all PPLs drop out within a few years, so a lot of people that fly did their training in a completely different age; 10,20,30 years ago. A lot of pilots are like those Japanese soldiers that lived in the jungles for many years, never realising WW2 had ended. The farm strip scene is like that.
I don't know how someone could pass exams without knowing what the AIP, AICs and NOTAMs are or where to get them, but if you say so...
I had never heard of the AIP, AIC when having my PPL, and notams were something that got pinned onto the notice board, and the instructor had a quick look each morning. This was in 2000. My info is that this is the standard system around the UK. So even new pilots aren't taught the info
The basic statistical point here is that the vast majority of pilots have never done a major bust. You need only a small minority to fly around without the information and you will get the hundreds of major busts that take place in the UK each year.
I agree with you that improving the website facilities won't help many pilots because they know nothing about it to start with.