Aerobatic Experience
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Originally Posted by stiknruda
At the end of the course you receive an AOPA certificate
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While I can definately see the attraction of Stik's description of competition aeros, and do not wish to take anything away from that, the artificially limited form of aeros seen in competitions isn't necessarily the be-all-and-end-all of aeros, and I'd like to defend those sunday morning skyhole-borers.
Barrel rolls, rarely seen in competition aeros, can be the amongst the most satisfying (if, admittedly, somewhat basic) manoevres to fly, and are easily within the capabilities of even basic aerobatic mounts. While I can well understand the need for a small aerobatic box for judging competition aerobatics, one of the main attractions of flying to me is the freedom it offers, and I'm not a massive fan of the concept of this imposed restriction.
As has been mentioned before, flying even a few basic manoevres would give many PPL holders more confidence in their aeroplanes, hopefully avoiding the affliction whereby people are scared to use greater then 20 degrees AoB in the circuit, as well as a better feel for the stall boundary.
As I said before, I wouldn't dream of not aknowledging the amazing aerial ballet performed in competition style aeros (indeed, I plan to try my hand at it soon), but I'd also hope that the participants in such also respect aeros performed outside this environment. I have the luxury of flying aeros on a regular basis in a relatively high performance aeroplane as part of my day job, as well as in a variety of powered and unpowered machines in my spare time, and I enjoy each activity in its own right.
Barrel rolls, rarely seen in competition aeros, can be the amongst the most satisfying (if, admittedly, somewhat basic) manoevres to fly, and are easily within the capabilities of even basic aerobatic mounts. While I can well understand the need for a small aerobatic box for judging competition aerobatics, one of the main attractions of flying to me is the freedom it offers, and I'm not a massive fan of the concept of this imposed restriction.
As has been mentioned before, flying even a few basic manoevres would give many PPL holders more confidence in their aeroplanes, hopefully avoiding the affliction whereby people are scared to use greater then 20 degrees AoB in the circuit, as well as a better feel for the stall boundary.
As I said before, I wouldn't dream of not aknowledging the amazing aerial ballet performed in competition style aeros (indeed, I plan to try my hand at it soon), but I'd also hope that the participants in such also respect aeros performed outside this environment. I have the luxury of flying aeros on a regular basis in a relatively high performance aeroplane as part of my day job, as well as in a variety of powered and unpowered machines in my spare time, and I enjoy each activity in its own right.
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Fournicator, very well put. I agree with your sentiments very much.
With regard to the AOPA course, it is often criticised as being a bit pointless, but there is value to both the instructor and student in working to a clear, unambiguous syllabus. If nothing else it sets common expectations.
The AOPA course requires a minumum of 8 hours flight training (plus the competency check) and 8 hours of briefings/lectures. If you might be interested in competing after finishing the course, make that clear to your instructor at the outset and he/she can (if he's got competition experience) tailor the course accordingly. For example, I often use the beginners sequence as an objective of the course and include it in the competency check.
No, the downgrade for each 5 degrees of error is 1 point.
Also no; figures on the B-axis can be flown in either direction without penalty, so in one of the two possibilities in your scenario (i.e. starting the figure on the A-axis), the quarter vertical roll to finish going cross-box can be done left or right.
Have fun.
With regard to the AOPA course, it is often criticised as being a bit pointless, but there is value to both the instructor and student in working to a clear, unambiguous syllabus. If nothing else it sets common expectations.
The AOPA course requires a minumum of 8 hours flight training (plus the competency check) and 8 hours of briefings/lectures. If you might be interested in competing after finishing the course, make that clear to your instructor at the outset and he/she can (if he's got competition experience) tailor the course accordingly. For example, I often use the beginners sequence as an objective of the course and include it in the competency check.
Originally Posted by stiknruda
...each 5 degrees off heading (or vertical, horizontal, 45 up or down, erect or inverted) costs you half a point.
Originally Posted by stiknruda
If the sequence calls for you to do a vertical half roll on the way up a stall turn and a 1/4 roll on the way down, you'd better be bloody sure which way you need to roll on the down line or you will be 180 degrees out AND everything afterwards will receive a zero. Ie: instead of recovering from the stall turn downwind or away from the judging line, you recover upwind or towards the judges if cross box you have just forfeited your chances of scoring well.
Have fun.
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Fournicator,
I totally agree with you! I love nothing more than strapping some keen bunny (tKf, Lister, countless friends and "neighbours") in the front seat and going off and looping and swooping without a thought to whether my loop was really circular, whether I was +ve on the up line and -ve on the down line or whether I was even near my start point.
It is no secret that I'd rather utilise my DA and do an aerobatic display for Joe and Joanne Public than compete seriously but it would be disingenuous of me to say that my comp background did not give me the confidence to rock up at an airshow and loop at 500'.
Doing comp style aeros has given me the opportunity and reason to go off and practice aerobatics - practice implies that you ought to get better... I can clearly recall the times in the early days that I've flicked out of a botched maneouver and spun and as I got better I can recall when I realised that I was flicking and countered with anti-spin controls so didn't fully flick and didn't let it degrade into a spin.
Helpmepse - I told you that getting into was the easy bit, getting out is the hard part!! I mean the hobby not the airframe.
Fournicator, when you decide to start comp flying do contact me and I'll try to help.
Stik
I totally agree with you! I love nothing more than strapping some keen bunny (tKf, Lister, countless friends and "neighbours") in the front seat and going off and looping and swooping without a thought to whether my loop was really circular, whether I was +ve on the up line and -ve on the down line or whether I was even near my start point.
It is no secret that I'd rather utilise my DA and do an aerobatic display for Joe and Joanne Public than compete seriously but it would be disingenuous of me to say that my comp background did not give me the confidence to rock up at an airshow and loop at 500'.
Doing comp style aeros has given me the opportunity and reason to go off and practice aerobatics - practice implies that you ought to get better... I can clearly recall the times in the early days that I've flicked out of a botched maneouver and spun and as I got better I can recall when I realised that I was flicking and countered with anti-spin controls so didn't fully flick and didn't let it degrade into a spin.
Helpmepse - I told you that getting into was the easy bit, getting out is the hard part!! I mean the hobby not the airframe.
Fournicator, when you decide to start comp flying do contact me and I'll try to help.
Stik
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giloc - our posts crossed and of course you are perfectly right - 5 degrees = 1 point.
The point I was trying to make about subsequent figures on a cross box was over complicated but I'm sure you know exactly what I was alluding to for those with no comp experience.
Stik
The point I was trying to make about subsequent figures on a cross box was over complicated but I'm sure you know exactly what I was alluding to for those with no comp experience.
Stik
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by giloc
figures on the B-axis can be flown in either direction without penalty
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Originally Posted by eharding
Downwind stall turn...no penalty....heeeeey...my kind of judges.
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giloc (and others),
I don't know if you are aware of a new scheme by the British Aerobatics Assoc. There is a new type of membership available for clubs/instructors. This allows their students to enter a BAeA competition for free and without having to join as individuals. This club membership is the same price as an individual membership.
So, if you provide aerobatic training and would like your students to be able to taste a competition then this is for you.
The beginners competition is perfect for people who have just completed the AOPA course and provides a perfect stepping stone into the world of aerobatics.
More details are at:
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/membership.htm
There is a beginners competition this afternoon at Sleap.
I don't know if you are aware of a new scheme by the British Aerobatics Assoc. There is a new type of membership available for clubs/instructors. This allows their students to enter a BAeA competition for free and without having to join as individuals. This club membership is the same price as an individual membership.
So, if you provide aerobatic training and would like your students to be able to taste a competition then this is for you.
The beginners competition is perfect for people who have just completed the AOPA course and provides a perfect stepping stone into the world of aerobatics.
More details are at:
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/membership.htm
There is a beginners competition this afternoon at Sleap.
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Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
giloc (and others),
I don't know if you are aware of a new scheme by the British Aerobatics Assoc....
I don't know if you are aware of a new scheme by the British Aerobatics Assoc....
Of course, most people that complete the AOPA course are not interested in entering competitions anyway, irrespective of whether or not they have to pay an entry fee to do so.
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Out of interest, did anyone read Brian Lecomber's article in Flyer on the Extra 300? If only all magazine flight test pieces were written like that... well, the world wouldn't be a better place but at least we'd get some honest insight
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I was initially sceptic about competition aerobatics, not sure about being watched, all seemed a bit artificial. I was very very wrong. Competition aerobatics provided a structured learning path, and a set of goals that have forced me practise, learn and become a better pilot. I used to aerobat just for fun, and it was not until I had a Spin/unusual attitude lesson with Alan Cassidy. That I learned I did not know as much as I should. Its an all too common phrase "I dont need any training as I am only doing basic aerobatics"
No such thing in my book.
Six years into comp aeros, and I still use lessons learnt from my first trip with Alan while I am training. If you are aerobating without proper spin training, then stop. Loops and stall turns can become erect/inverted spins in a heartbeat, and erect spins can become inverted if misshandled.(Honestly how many weekend aerobatic pilots practice spinning?)
Alan Cassidy, Ultimate high ect run good advanced spinning courses.
Both competition and weekend aerobatics are great great fun, and long shall they continue....but I know which group have had better spin awareness.
All in IMHO of course.
No such thing in my book.
Six years into comp aeros, and I still use lessons learnt from my first trip with Alan while I am training. If you are aerobating without proper spin training, then stop. Loops and stall turns can become erect/inverted spins in a heartbeat, and erect spins can become inverted if misshandled.(Honestly how many weekend aerobatic pilots practice spinning?)
Alan Cassidy, Ultimate high ect run good advanced spinning courses.
Both competition and weekend aerobatics are great great fun, and long shall they continue....but I know which group have had better spin awareness.
All in IMHO of course.
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Fournicator,
Whilst the barrel roll may be a simple manouvre to fly, it is also one which is easy to get wrong if you don't have the proper training.
The problem is the last half where the beginner often shows a tendency to stop the roll and try to pull through (or spiral dive) especially if the nose has already passed through the horizon.
The benefit of competition aerobatic training is the high discipline required. Whether you actually compete is a different matter much as you would still be a better swimmer for having a competition swimming coach. All in the technique.
Whilst the barrel roll may be a simple manouvre to fly, it is also one which is easy to get wrong if you don't have the proper training.
The problem is the last half where the beginner often shows a tendency to stop the roll and try to pull through (or spiral dive) especially if the nose has already passed through the horizon.
The benefit of competition aerobatic training is the high discipline required. Whether you actually compete is a different matter much as you would still be a better swimmer for having a competition swimming coach. All in the technique.
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Originally Posted by Confabulous
Out of interest, did anyone read Brian Lecomber's article in Flyer on the Extra 300? If only all magazine flight test pieces were written like that... well, the world wouldn't be a better place but at least we'd get some honest insight
Now, if they had installed a 450hp engine instead...
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Was not suggesting foe one moment trying to fly aeros without proper training; I come from a very highly regulated background (also one in which both incipient and fully developed erect & inverted spins are practised so much they actually become quite boring), just that such proper training does not have to be for comp style aeros.
While the competitive arena I'm sure provides a suitable incentive for many to develop their skills, this is not the only way to constantly analyse and improve your handling.
While the competitive arena I'm sure provides a suitable incentive for many to develop their skills, this is not the only way to constantly analyse and improve your handling.
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Originally Posted by MyData
I'm looking forwards to doing this again later in the summer and to try a spin recovery, another loop and perhaps a barrel roll.
How many ways can I spin thee? Let me count the ways...
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Originally Posted by giloc
Of course, most people that complete the AOPA course are not interested in entering competitions anyway
A little less conversation,
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Originally Posted by Flyingcircusace
Alan Cassidy, Ultimate high ect run good advanced spinning courses.
Both competition and weekend aerobatics are great great fun, and long shall they continue....but I know which group have had better spin awareness.
All in IMHO of course.
Both competition and weekend aerobatics are great great fun, and long shall they continue....but I know which group have had better spin awareness.
All in IMHO of course.
Achieved a personal best at Sleap today in terms of timing and physical stamina - in that I managed to sneak in a large helping of Chicken Curry & Chips for lunch in exactly the period between AC setting off to fly the Advanced Known and the Extra brakes being applied afterwards - and hence AC being unable to give me a hard time about the monumentally poor diet choice - but it was a hard slog towards the end....nearly forced to abandon a couple of chips & a spoonfull of curry sauce, but got there with seconds to spare.
The flying went OK as well.....probably down to the curry
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Originally Posted by eharding
Of course they do.......they just don't know it yet.
In an effort to lower the barrier to entry a bit more, I understand that LOOP are organising a fly-in at Compton Abbas on 30th June that is to incorporate a Beginner's-only competition, together with coaching and critiquing. See www.loop.aero.
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Fabulous thread - lots of good comments and advice in here.
To add my bit for the ab initio's:
1. Do it. - it will make you a safer, confident and more disciplined pilot.
2. Understand the concepts of rolling 'g' and why it is dangerous.
3. In reference to 2 make your pre-flight VERY thorough especially if you're hiring the a/c. You don't know what the previous renter did - eg check for wing skin rippling, or broken ribs if fabric covered.
4. Competitions will hone your flying and mental discipline skills
5. Don't ever attempt to teach yourself basic aeros. Get qualified instruction.
Soapbox mode off. Cleaed for finals.
To add my bit for the ab initio's:
1. Do it. - it will make you a safer, confident and more disciplined pilot.
2. Understand the concepts of rolling 'g' and why it is dangerous.
3. In reference to 2 make your pre-flight VERY thorough especially if you're hiring the a/c. You don't know what the previous renter did - eg check for wing skin rippling, or broken ribs if fabric covered.
4. Competitions will hone your flying and mental discipline skills
5. Don't ever attempt to teach yourself basic aeros. Get qualified instruction.
Soapbox mode off. Cleaed for finals.
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Totally agree with the Spin comments above.
I'm one of the "sad muppets" who got hooked on flying through aero's trial lessons and had my first "SPIN" session yesterday. (12 1/2 hrs PPL 4 hrs Aeros - so I'm a baby in flying terms!!)
I wasn't particularly concerned about the spins apart from just how disorientated am I going to get (Puking issue - never happened yet!), but was terrified about parachutes and 10,000ft - weird eh??
First 2 demonstrated and it wasn't as bad as I thought - eyes sorted themselves out. According to the "boss" he was teaching me "academic" spins (11B) and recoveries. (stall, incipient spin and recover, full spin and recover, spiral dives and recover).
Actually thoroughly enjoyed myself but was shaking like a leaf afterwards - relief of tension??
When I'm further on in the PPL (i.e. I can generally control the plane better than I can now) he'll take me for an aero's session where we'll have a look at the spins from botched manoeuvres - then hopefully I won't kill myself - or him!!!!
I'm one of the "sad muppets" who got hooked on flying through aero's trial lessons and had my first "SPIN" session yesterday. (12 1/2 hrs PPL 4 hrs Aeros - so I'm a baby in flying terms!!)
I wasn't particularly concerned about the spins apart from just how disorientated am I going to get (Puking issue - never happened yet!), but was terrified about parachutes and 10,000ft - weird eh??
First 2 demonstrated and it wasn't as bad as I thought - eyes sorted themselves out. According to the "boss" he was teaching me "academic" spins (11B) and recoveries. (stall, incipient spin and recover, full spin and recover, spiral dives and recover).
Actually thoroughly enjoyed myself but was shaking like a leaf afterwards - relief of tension??
When I'm further on in the PPL (i.e. I can generally control the plane better than I can now) he'll take me for an aero's session where we'll have a look at the spins from botched manoeuvres - then hopefully I won't kill myself - or him!!!!