Buying to hire out
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There should be no problem with a newly minted PPL buying an a/c, but the fact is that many are seen as cash cows by the many unscrupulous individuals in this industry.
Unfortunately, many PPL's let their heart rule their head when it comes to buying a/c (Old and New PPL's) and they often end up buying something wholly unsuitable for their actual needs.
I would suggest that people would be better buying into a good share initially (or just continue renting) until they have a bit more experience and understanding of some of the problems involved in a/c ownership.
You wouldn't buy a car without reading a price guide or what to look for article in a magazine and yet I see it constantly with people charging into buying a machine that proves to totally hopeless. I try my best to warn or advise people, but it's sometimes like trying to stop a runaway train.
I spend so much time talking about this to people and then being totally ignored that it doesn't even bother me any more. I try not to say "I told you so" when the poop hits the rotating object, but if people won't listen to experience, then no wonder there are so many sharks out there looking for easy marks.
Unfortunately, many PPL's let their heart rule their head when it comes to buying a/c (Old and New PPL's) and they often end up buying something wholly unsuitable for their actual needs.
I would suggest that people would be better buying into a good share initially (or just continue renting) until they have a bit more experience and understanding of some of the problems involved in a/c ownership.
You wouldn't buy a car without reading a price guide or what to look for article in a magazine and yet I see it constantly with people charging into buying a machine that proves to totally hopeless. I try my best to warn or advise people, but it's sometimes like trying to stop a runaway train.
I spend so much time talking about this to people and then being totally ignored that it doesn't even bother me any more. I try not to say "I told you so" when the poop hits the rotating object, but if people won't listen to experience, then no wonder there are so many sharks out there looking for easy marks.
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A bit of both, but mainly it seems to be people buying a/c that won't suit what they want to do with it, ie buying a TB10 for short bimbles, or a C150 for long distance touring!
There are many who have fallen into the trap of thinking that something cheap is a good buy............ And then finding some pretty nasty surprises. Gut reaction and a damn good survey are the absolute minimum requirements for a successful purchase! Not rushing in because it looks alright, but hasn't had the spar mod done and nobody checked to see if it was necessary when looking at that type.
There are many who have fallen into the trap of thinking that something cheap is a good buy............ And then finding some pretty nasty surprises. Gut reaction and a damn good survey are the absolute minimum requirements for a successful purchase! Not rushing in because it looks alright, but hasn't had the spar mod done and nobody checked to see if it was necessary when looking at that type.
Supercalafragilistic
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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I decided early on that anything I buy will get an engineers inspection. insane not to
just spotted this
http://www.cabairaircraftsales.com/rentback.htm
just spotted this
http://www.cabairaircraftsales.com/rentback.htm
Join Date: May 2001
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I would consider it assuming the following:
The flying club contributes towards routine maintenance and required checks
The flying club pays for fuel used (of course)
The flying club provides free parking / hangarage
The flying club pays all home base landing fees
The flying club is responsible for all fees incurred by their students
The flying club pays for insurance and will pay any insurance excess
The flying club pays for all repairs above normal wear and tear (spilled coffee, ripped seat covers, bust trim, flat spotted tyres etc....) casued by their students
Sounds fair to me.
The flying club contributes towards routine maintenance and required checks
The flying club pays for fuel used (of course)
The flying club provides free parking / hangarage
The flying club pays all home base landing fees
The flying club is responsible for all fees incurred by their students
The flying club pays for insurance and will pay any insurance excess
The flying club pays for all repairs above normal wear and tear (spilled coffee, ripped seat covers, bust trim, flat spotted tyres etc....) casued by their students
Sounds fair to me.
This line from the Cabair ad sums it all up:
It also gives the owner an opportunity of receiving a revenue which can be used to assist in covering some of the costs involved in aircraft ownership.
My bold / underline / italics.
It also gives the owner an opportunity of receiving a revenue which can be used to assist in covering some of the costs involved in aircraft ownership.
My bold / underline / italics.
Supercalafragilistic
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On another note, a 50% share i've been offered, £200 per month each.
I pay £115 per hour lesson right now.
If I had this 50% I'd pay £22.50 for an instructor.
£22.50 instructor
£35.00 fuel
£ 9.70 landing fee
£67.20 hourly rate total assuming 1 hour lesson
that's £47.80 saving so if I had 5 or more lessons per month i'd be saving.
I pay £115 per hour lesson right now.
If I had this 50% I'd pay £22.50 for an instructor.
£22.50 instructor
£35.00 fuel
£ 9.70 landing fee
£67.20 hourly rate total assuming 1 hour lesson
that's £47.80 saving so if I had 5 or more lessons per month i'd be saving.
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Ben
It's important to appreciate that aircraft ownership involves both fixed costs (that you incur even if the wheels never leave the ground) and flying costs that arise out of each hour flying. Your £200/month will only cover the fixed costs (insurance/hangerage/annual check etc). The hourly costs not only include the fuel but engine replacement (say £6/hr for a C152) and maintenance (50 hour checks), say £10/hour. So you need to assume another £16/hour cost on your figures. Then there is other wear and tear costs, e.g. tyres which will take a hammering when you are doing circuits. Remember everything that is aircraft related costs much more than you would expect, even replacement light bulbs are a significant expense!
It's important to appreciate that aircraft ownership involves both fixed costs (that you incur even if the wheels never leave the ground) and flying costs that arise out of each hour flying. Your £200/month will only cover the fixed costs (insurance/hangerage/annual check etc). The hourly costs not only include the fuel but engine replacement (say £6/hr for a C152) and maintenance (50 hour checks), say £10/hour. So you need to assume another £16/hour cost on your figures. Then there is other wear and tear costs, e.g. tyres which will take a hammering when you are doing circuits. Remember everything that is aircraft related costs much more than you would expect, even replacement light bulbs are a significant expense!
Intelligent Idiot
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Are you the Ben Coulthard who runs Sweeper Hire?
Not been personally involved with any form of aircraft ownership but do know that my current school leases all of its aircraft on the same sort of basis that you seem to be wanting.
I dont know what terms and conditions these are operated under but it obviously works out for somebody as they have been on the school now for some years.
I cannot offer any advice yay or nay but offer my observation that it is possible.
Not been personally involved with any form of aircraft ownership but do know that my current school leases all of its aircraft on the same sort of basis that you seem to be wanting.
I dont know what terms and conditions these are operated under but it obviously works out for somebody as they have been on the school now for some years.
I cannot offer any advice yay or nay but offer my observation that it is possible.
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A share is a very good way to cut flying costs and/or get into a plane of reasonable quality, but again there is no free lunch.
1. You are liable (to the extent of your % shareholding) for all maintenance costs, and big-cost suprise items are normal on old planes
2. There are botchas to watch for. People sell their shares for a reason and they aren't likely to tell you if the reason is for example advance knowledge of a major expense, or a dispute within the group. You have to really know and trust the rest of the group.
1. You are liable (to the extent of your % shareholding) for all maintenance costs, and big-cost suprise items are normal on old planes
2. There are botchas to watch for. People sell their shares for a reason and they aren't likely to tell you if the reason is for example advance knowledge of a major expense, or a dispute within the group. You have to really know and trust the rest of the group.
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2. There are botchas to watch for. People sell their shares for a reason and they aren't likely to tell you if the reason is for example advance knowledge of a major expense, or a dispute within the group. You have to really know and trust the rest of the group.
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Ben,
Outstanding effort and achievement on the sweeper hire thing (gods own google) but slow down on the aircaft thing, my suggestion is to just do the PPL at rental rates, (if you are indeed fed up of the GBP rates , then wait a few months , save and do it in the USA), but buying an affordable , marginal clapped 152 for PPL , mate , you're going to end up learning the hard way, and unless you have capital to burn, then I'd listen very hard to what people have said here.
do the PPL, get it over with, decide what you want to do, then buy/share something "interesting" like a moth or a cub and maybe a year and a 100/200 hours or so later, a pitts or something like that, then you can have enjoyment and income (albeit small) at the same time!
trust me, the PPL is the least expensive thing you will ever do in this game
Outstanding effort and achievement on the sweeper hire thing (gods own google) but slow down on the aircaft thing, my suggestion is to just do the PPL at rental rates, (if you are indeed fed up of the GBP rates , then wait a few months , save and do it in the USA), but buying an affordable , marginal clapped 152 for PPL , mate , you're going to end up learning the hard way, and unless you have capital to burn, then I'd listen very hard to what people have said here.
do the PPL, get it over with, decide what you want to do, then buy/share something "interesting" like a moth or a cub and maybe a year and a 100/200 hours or so later, a pitts or something like that, then you can have enjoyment and income (albeit small) at the same time!
trust me, the PPL is the least expensive thing you will ever do in this game
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Owning a share sounds like a much better way of doing things!
Be cautious, as others have said, but if you can find your way into a successful, friendly and honest group, it's probably one of the best types of flying around, because as well as the financial benefits, you also get a group of like-minded people to sit in the bar and talk to about your aeroplane, and to go flying with once (or even before) you get your license.
FFF
-----------------
Be cautious, as others have said, but if you can find your way into a successful, friendly and honest group, it's probably one of the best types of flying around, because as well as the financial benefits, you also get a group of like-minded people to sit in the bar and talk to about your aeroplane, and to go flying with once (or even before) you get your license.
FFF
-----------------
Supercalafragilistic
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the group I found is as good as you could want, 50% so can you class 2 people as a group? the other guy is an old retired fella and availability is great, the other guy is selling to fund his commercial school fees and the plane is the tidiest 150 ive ever seen with only 4000 hours frame and just over 200 on the engine, new paint and plenty kit to do IF. and night etc
yes there are costs but i think it would be hard to own a plane and pay less with such a good machine with such low hours
yes there are costs but i think it would be hard to own a plane and pay less with such a good machine with such low hours
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There are certainly cheap ways to fly. I fly a 4 seater, which cruises comfortably at 95 kts. I share it with 3 other older gentlemen, who each own other aeroplanes, including some fun stuff (Yaks, Aerobatic biplanes, etc....).
The plane is around 25 years old but has just benefited from a complete re-build and is effectively a new aeroplane with 200 hrs on the engine. I paid under 10k for the share and first years insurance etc.....I fly from an unlicensed airfield and don't pay any landing fees. As a resident I can come and go as I please, even after the airfield has "shut". We pay £20 each per month hangarage and £40 per hour in fuel and split all other bills. Normally the annuals are taken care of by the excess in the fuel (billed by hobbs). It also helps that one of the group members is an engineer
The other chaps are always happy to fly with me and to go on adventures. As they are retired, they are nearly always available and they are also happy to take me on adventures in their aeroplanes, and hopefully I'll get to do a bit of free (or very cheap) aerobatics this year, with the unofficial tutoring of an experienced aero's pilot.
As far as availibility is concerned, it is excellent and is available 90% of the time.
The plane is around 25 years old but has just benefited from a complete re-build and is effectively a new aeroplane with 200 hrs on the engine. I paid under 10k for the share and first years insurance etc.....I fly from an unlicensed airfield and don't pay any landing fees. As a resident I can come and go as I please, even after the airfield has "shut". We pay £20 each per month hangarage and £40 per hour in fuel and split all other bills. Normally the annuals are taken care of by the excess in the fuel (billed by hobbs). It also helps that one of the group members is an engineer
The other chaps are always happy to fly with me and to go on adventures. As they are retired, they are nearly always available and they are also happy to take me on adventures in their aeroplanes, and hopefully I'll get to do a bit of free (or very cheap) aerobatics this year, with the unofficial tutoring of an experienced aero's pilot.
As far as availibility is concerned, it is excellent and is available 90% of the time.
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Ben
Check out a C150 very carefully. This is going to be an old wreck so unless it has been substantially renovated, expect suprises. I know of a £7000 Annual on one, the other day, which is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the plane's value.
This is the tradeoff in GA. You pay less up front but spend it afterwards. The whole GA business in the UK works like that. There is no capital around but somehow they scrape up the maintenance money.
Check out a C150 very carefully. This is going to be an old wreck so unless it has been substantially renovated, expect suprises. I know of a £7000 Annual on one, the other day, which is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the plane's value.
This is the tradeoff in GA. You pay less up front but spend it afterwards. The whole GA business in the UK works like that. There is no capital around but somehow they scrape up the maintenance money.
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Ben
One other thought - if you buy a 'group' or other private aircraft, just check with your instructor (or school) that he can legally teach you on that aircraft. It usually depends on is CoA or Permit status and whether the aircraft's insurance covers that instructor for instructional flights.
You are doing the right thing - thoroughly exploring all the options BEFORE you part with any money
One other thought - if you buy a 'group' or other private aircraft, just check with your instructor (or school) that he can legally teach you on that aircraft. It usually depends on is CoA or Permit status and whether the aircraft's insurance covers that instructor for instructional flights.
You are doing the right thing - thoroughly exploring all the options BEFORE you part with any money