Best method of approach and landing a PA28-180 Cherokee
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never had any trouble as long as I let my gaze slide down the runway to the opposite threshold just before and during the flare
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridgeshire
Age: 55
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PA28 Landings
Agree with EnglishAl , focus down the runway. Im 5'3 and never used a cushion in 12 years so size shouldnt matter.............where have I heard that before?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The South
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely have your eyes looking down at the far end of the runway. Also, the most obvious clue to your height and rate of descent in the flare is actually in your peripheral vision: whilst gazing into the distance, get your brain to pay attention to the overall picture, particularly what's going on at the sides: if you do this you'll get a very clear impression of the ground, hangars, buildings etc. coming up to meet you and will be able to judge the flare much more accurately than if you try to focus on the far end of the runway.
Mark
Mark
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ireland
Age: 44
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For perspective, I'm 5'6 and haven't have any problems so far. My own opinion is that while peripheral vision may not be able to judge height with accuracy unless you're fairly experienced, it can judge rate of change very easily, and that's what I concentrate on.
For instance, my last approach was fairly high until my instructor pointed it out. I pulled off a fair bit of power and just watched the picture until it looked reasonable (not so high that I'd need to pitch down, and not so low as to get behind the drag curve), then put most of it back on. To be blunt, I have no idea what speed I landed at, nor rate of descent, or anything except the picture I was looking for.
During every approach I'm reminded of Ernest K Gann's comment - 'Aim us at the runway, then hold everything until you feel us hit' - and that's what I do. Makes it seem easy.
One other thing I learned last time - if you think you're going to miss a runway turnoff on rollout, DON'T stamp on the brakes!
Personally I write down every thing I missed or learned during the flight immediately after so I remember it.
For instance, my last approach was fairly high until my instructor pointed it out. I pulled off a fair bit of power and just watched the picture until it looked reasonable (not so high that I'd need to pitch down, and not so low as to get behind the drag curve), then put most of it back on. To be blunt, I have no idea what speed I landed at, nor rate of descent, or anything except the picture I was looking for.
During every approach I'm reminded of Ernest K Gann's comment - 'Aim us at the runway, then hold everything until you feel us hit' - and that's what I do. Makes it seem easy.
One other thing I learned last time - if you think you're going to miss a runway turnoff on rollout, DON'T stamp on the brakes!
Personally I write down every thing I missed or learned during the flight immediately after so I remember it.
Last edited by Confabulous; 24th Apr 2006 at 12:38.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: West London
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks All
Thanks Guys for your comments and helpful advice. I've got a flight during this coming weekend, so will try out some of your comments/suggestions.
One thing that has come to light is that I don't look in the right areas.
Cheers once again.
RB
One thing that has come to light is that I don't look in the right areas.
Cheers once again.
RB
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a fact that for the FAA Type Data Certificate for light aircraft, each aircraft type must satisfy the administration that it can be trimmed and landed 'hands off'. Trimming is the answer here. If in doubt as to whether or not your aircraft is trimmed, let go for a bit and see what it does. If you can't land after proper trimming then you are probably messing with it too much. It already knows how to land, because it has been demonstrated as such, you just need to give it a wee touch at the runway to make it a smooth and straight one!
As for the approach, once you are trimmed, control your height and rate of decent with power.
As for the approach, once you are trimmed, control your height and rate of decent with power.
Just be a little careful with the trim please so that you don't kill yourself in a go around. I strongly suggest that you leave it trimmed for your 75 kt approach or whatever the speed in the POH is.
That way if you go around, the control column push forces are going to be manageable. If you fiddle with the trim on final to avoid having to pull back so hard to keep the nose up, some of you might easily find that you are not strong enough to push the nose down when executing a go around - with predictable and fatal, results.
That way if you go around, the control column push forces are going to be manageable. If you fiddle with the trim on final to avoid having to pull back so hard to keep the nose up, some of you might easily find that you are not strong enough to push the nose down when executing a go around - with predictable and fatal, results.
Guest
Posts: n/a
You want it trimmed for the right speed - 75KIAS over the fence for a PA28 is crazy, although I dont think that Sunfish means this literally.
ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.
My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.
It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?
And they are very easy to fly and land :-)
ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.
My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.
It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?
And they are very easy to fly and land :-)
Final three is right, but thats not what I meant. I trim for 75 knots which is the recommended approach speed and leave it there. The Piper Arrow POH actually states you should do this and I think the Warrior POH does the same (or is it 70?).
Vref for the PA28's I fly is 63 knots, and that is what you should come over the fence with, pulling back a little on the column to get to that speed.
Its important to stick with the POH speeds because matter such as elevator authority, the ability to retract flaps without stalling if you have an engine failure on final, control column forces in the event of a go around, and probably a heep of other stuff I can't remember, all depend on the speeds and attitudes you adopt.
To put it another way, I guess you could approach and land at Vs + 1 Knot, but if anything goes wrong.........
Vref for the PA28's I fly is 63 knots, and that is what you should come over the fence with, pulling back a little on the column to get to that speed.
Its important to stick with the POH speeds because matter such as elevator authority, the ability to retract flaps without stalling if you have an engine failure on final, control column forces in the event of a go around, and probably a heep of other stuff I can't remember, all depend on the speeds and attitudes you adopt.
To put it another way, I guess you could approach and land at Vs + 1 Knot, but if anything goes wrong.........
Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
You want it trimmed for the right speed - 75KIAS over the fence for a PA28 is crazy, although I dont think that Sunfish means this literally.
ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.
My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.
It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?
And they are very easy to fly and land :-)
ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.
My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.
It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?
And they are very easy to fly and land :-)
POHs recommend an initial approach speed of 75 knots for a -181, 74 knots for a -140 and 70 knots for a -161.
Most of my PA28 hours are in -161s (about 90 hrs on type), and I've found that trimming with 2nd stage of flap to 70, then holding a maximum of 63 on the yoke (reducing to about 58 lightweight and solo) and selecting full flap over the hedge (or a bit earlier if high) works for consistently neat landings.
What one should never do imho on any PA28 is approach fast, save in very gusty conditions onto a very long runway.
G
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Left Seat, Up Front
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Big Boy Landing
Originally Posted by Will Hung
Just out of interest and going "off thread" a tad, do the big boyz land with power on ?
... oh, I see, not what you are asking. Couldnt resist, sorry.
The general technique for a turbine engine is to keep a fair bit of power flowing and compensate by increasing the drag with spoliers,speed brakes etc. The theory being that when you need power to go around you dont want the lag in getting full power as you attempt to push the throttles through the front window.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Left Seat, Up Front
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
65 knots for a -181, 64 knots for a -140, 63 knots is for a -161 (assuming that any of us can peg a speed that accurately!).
POHs recommend an initial approach speed of 75 knots for a -181, 74 knots for a -140 and 70 knots for a -161.
Most of my PA28 hours are in -161s (about 90 hrs on type), and I've found that trimming with 2nd stage of flap to 70, then holding a maximum of 63 on the yoke (reducing to about 58 lightweight and solo) and selecting full flap over the hedge (or a bit earlier if high) works for consistently neat landings.
What one should never do imho on any PA28 is approach fast, save in very gusty conditions onto a very long runway.
G
POHs recommend an initial approach speed of 75 knots for a -181, 74 knots for a -140 and 70 knots for a -161.
Most of my PA28 hours are in -161s (about 90 hrs on type), and I've found that trimming with 2nd stage of flap to 70, then holding a maximum of 63 on the yoke (reducing to about 58 lightweight and solo) and selecting full flap over the hedge (or a bit earlier if high) works for consistently neat landings.
What one should never do imho on any PA28 is approach fast, save in very gusty conditions onto a very long runway.
G
If it is gusty and strong you should consider using less flap or a flapless and flying a faster final to match new stall parameters. You will need to use more runway of course.
Strong gusty crosswind is comfortable up to the demonstrated maximum 17Kt if you are careful about the choice of flap. Lots of dipped wing and land upwind wheel down.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Landing turboprops
Its almost exactly the same as your PA28. But you don't want the stall warner going off when you touch down. So you tend to be 10-20 knots above your stall speed. but its all factored into the speed books so you don't have to "think" about it" Just land it at the speeds given and it works.
The points of reference for vision are the same.
The machine obeys the same laws of physics.
The only real difference is that the constant speed props have a tendency to disk at low touque settings and if you have just picked it up out of the hangar and the settings arn't to great they can go into a failed engine mode which cycles them towards feather and back which is a bit of a shock when it first happens. A wee adjustment of what they call the flight idle torque and all is well. So if you go back to flight idle you can get a non-linear increase in drag due to the props turning into air brakes. Which to be honest can be very handy at times. Its pretty easy to spot a TP getting driven into the runway instead of flared to land. The plane will have a very flat attitude with hardly any nose up (a note to add if the aircraft is doing circuits it could just be the examiner doing a Flap 0 which is very flat and fast). A tp which is being landed at the correct speed will have a very similar attitude to A PA28.
A bit like GA there are many theorys about the best method and some people will say leave a bit of power on. Which just makes it easier for them to get a smooth landing but shoots all the performance data to hell. And others which I include myself in who reckon that you don't need to have power on to make a smooth landing. As with all aircraft if you hit the manufactures numbers on the nose and don't try to do anything fancy it will set you up for the potential for a good landing. Which will be within performance limits and is actually easier to control than a high energy drive the thing into the ground type of landing.
And the C172 pilot having problems, I have flown about 4 different makes/ models of C172 with various attachments to the wing tips. I think it was an F with the scoops. It was a bitch to land until I sussed it after about 150 hours.
The thing was nigh on impossible to stall clean or dirty the ASI read zero when it eventually did go, and even then it didn't really do anything apart from stop holding height and start mushing towards the ground.
The trick seemed to be not to let it to land until the back end "sat down" There was a point when there was a noticable increase in elevator input in the flare and the back "sank" only after you feel this could you let the wheels touch the deck. If you touched down before this it would bounce and yaw and do all sorts of horrible things before dropping out of the sky. Wait to long after the back sank and you were deposited on the ground with very little choice in the matter.
MJ
The points of reference for vision are the same.
The machine obeys the same laws of physics.
The only real difference is that the constant speed props have a tendency to disk at low touque settings and if you have just picked it up out of the hangar and the settings arn't to great they can go into a failed engine mode which cycles them towards feather and back which is a bit of a shock when it first happens. A wee adjustment of what they call the flight idle torque and all is well. So if you go back to flight idle you can get a non-linear increase in drag due to the props turning into air brakes. Which to be honest can be very handy at times. Its pretty easy to spot a TP getting driven into the runway instead of flared to land. The plane will have a very flat attitude with hardly any nose up (a note to add if the aircraft is doing circuits it could just be the examiner doing a Flap 0 which is very flat and fast). A tp which is being landed at the correct speed will have a very similar attitude to A PA28.
A bit like GA there are many theorys about the best method and some people will say leave a bit of power on. Which just makes it easier for them to get a smooth landing but shoots all the performance data to hell. And others which I include myself in who reckon that you don't need to have power on to make a smooth landing. As with all aircraft if you hit the manufactures numbers on the nose and don't try to do anything fancy it will set you up for the potential for a good landing. Which will be within performance limits and is actually easier to control than a high energy drive the thing into the ground type of landing.
And the C172 pilot having problems, I have flown about 4 different makes/ models of C172 with various attachments to the wing tips. I think it was an F with the scoops. It was a bitch to land until I sussed it after about 150 hours.
The thing was nigh on impossible to stall clean or dirty the ASI read zero when it eventually did go, and even then it didn't really do anything apart from stop holding height and start mushing towards the ground.
The trick seemed to be not to let it to land until the back end "sat down" There was a point when there was a noticable increase in elevator input in the flare and the back "sank" only after you feel this could you let the wheels touch the deck. If you touched down before this it would bounce and yaw and do all sorts of horrible things before dropping out of the sky. Wait to long after the back sank and you were deposited on the ground with very little choice in the matter.
MJ
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The general technique for a turbine engine is to keep a fair bit of power flowing and compensate by increasing the drag with spoliers,speed brakes etc. The theory being that when you need power to go around you dont want the lag in getting full power as you attempt to push the throttles through the front window.
