Starting an aircraft share group
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Starting an aircraft share group
Hi guys,
Leading on my from previous thread about purchasing an aircraft, myself and a couple of other trainee pilots have decided that we want to do a group buy of an aircraft to complete our PPLs and hour build in. We are looking to spend in the region of £15k - £20k for a 2 seater (or 4 if its feasible), something like a Cessna 150/152, Piper Cherokee or a Robin ATL, though we are open to suggestions
. This in itself isn't too much of an issue; we've worked out all the costs, and its economically doable - the problem is administering the group. What we would like to know is:
1. What is the best way of going about setting up the group i.e. just an agreement between us, or form a company of some description (partnership, LTD, PLC?) as a cost center.
2. What is the best method of delegating flying time?
3. If we are planning to do our PPLs on this aircraft do we need a public transport CofA or will a private or permit be enough?
Cheers!
Leading on my from previous thread about purchasing an aircraft, myself and a couple of other trainee pilots have decided that we want to do a group buy of an aircraft to complete our PPLs and hour build in. We are looking to spend in the region of £15k - £20k for a 2 seater (or 4 if its feasible), something like a Cessna 150/152, Piper Cherokee or a Robin ATL, though we are open to suggestions
. This in itself isn't too much of an issue; we've worked out all the costs, and its economically doable - the problem is administering the group. What we would like to know is:1. What is the best way of going about setting up the group i.e. just an agreement between us, or form a company of some description (partnership, LTD, PLC?) as a cost center.
2. What is the best method of delegating flying time?
3. If we are planning to do our PPLs on this aircraft do we need a public transport CofA or will a private or permit be enough?
Cheers!
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Doing your PPLs on the aircraft will probably be prohibited by the insurance company, unless it is specifically asked for and approved. Then you will have to pay heaps for it, again probably.
1. In my experience most groups agree a set of rules, then everybody signs a bit of paper when they join agreeing to abide by them. Make sure you include sanctions for non-observance (i.e., how to throw people out!)
2. Most syndicates have a booking system and a rule that prohibits any member from having more than X number of days booked ahead at any time.
3. Public transport.
Nothing wrong with any of the types you've mentioned, although for that low money you'll probably only get (of the PA28 family) a -140, which isn't the most flexible aeroplane in terms of runway length and payload.
Two other types I'd look at would be a Rallye (but have it checked for mainspar corrosion) or the PA38 Tomahawk which personally I think is a much nicer aeroplane than a C152 and probably cheaper as well - certainly it's no less capable as a training aeroplane. Also don't discount the occasional unusual aeroplane - something like an Auster or Tripacer for example.
G
2. Most syndicates have a booking system and a rule that prohibits any member from having more than X number of days booked ahead at any time.
3. Public transport.
Nothing wrong with any of the types you've mentioned, although for that low money you'll probably only get (of the PA28 family) a -140, which isn't the most flexible aeroplane in terms of runway length and payload.
Two other types I'd look at would be a Rallye (but have it checked for mainspar corrosion) or the PA38 Tomahawk which personally I think is a much nicer aeroplane than a C152 and probably cheaper as well - certainly it's no less capable as a training aeroplane. Also don't discount the occasional unusual aeroplane - something like an Auster or Tripacer for example.
G
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1. Look at the PFA web site for advice on this, many ways of doing this, but do ensure you have a proper, legally binding agreement.
2.Again many ways. Our group has a web based booking system, in the rules is a priority system where each member in turn has priority a week at a time, others can book in that week by his agreement or take any time he has not booked 48hours in advanced - we have not needed to put this into use but it is in the rules to stop one member hogging the aircraft all the time.
3.whilst being used for non licenced pilots it will need to be maintained on a CofA to Public Transport standard (ther is no longer a Public transport/Private C of A as such), once all are qualified you need not maintain this meaning you can do more work on the aircraft yourself and do not need to worry so much about engine age and hours as long as it i running OK.
2.Again many ways. Our group has a web based booking system, in the rules is a priority system where each member in turn has priority a week at a time, others can book in that week by his agreement or take any time he has not booked 48hours in advanced - we have not needed to put this into use but it is in the rules to stop one member hogging the aircraft all the time.
3.whilst being used for non licenced pilots it will need to be maintained on a CofA to Public Transport standard (ther is no longer a Public transport/Private C of A as such), once all are qualified you need not maintain this meaning you can do more work on the aircraft yourself and do not need to worry so much about engine age and hours as long as it i running OK.
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You could always hop over to Florida for 3 weeks, get your licences and then come back and get a PFA aircraft which will be much cheaper to operate. You can then get differences training on your new aircraft without it needing to be a Pubic Transport aircraft.
Depending on how much you will fly you can choose the number of members. Aim for 150 hrs per year as the optimum between availability and cost. For 3 of you this will be around 50 hrs each. Our group only manages about 25 hrs each although when we get a new member they always seem to do 35/40 hrs in the first year and then drop back down to around 25hrs/yr.
Depending on how much you will fly you can choose the number of members. Aim for 150 hrs per year as the optimum between availability and cost. For 3 of you this will be around 50 hrs each. Our group only manages about 25 hrs each although when we get a new member they always seem to do 35/40 hrs in the first year and then drop back down to around 25hrs/yr.
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Ok cheers for the info guys. We're meeting up this weekend to discuss it further and maybe look at some potential candidates. Ghengis, I wouldn't mind flying a PA-38, never flown one before so I'll need to try and blag a flight with someone to compare it to my current training aircraft (PA-28 Warrior and TB-9 Tampico). Zulu Alpha, I have looked at doing my PPL in the US, if you exclude the one time cost of actually buying the aircraft then it actually works out marginally cheaper to do it here than the US, though if this goes t*ts up, I will probably go to the US!
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Setting up a group
Oxeagle,
If you happen to be an AOPA member, I believe they have produced guidance on this subject and a model agreement for group members.
Broomstick.
If you happen to be an AOPA member, I believe they have produced guidance on this subject and a model agreement for group members.
Broomstick.
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Rivet Gun,
Thanks for pointing out my ambiguity.
What I meant was get the licence you need at a flying school and then get someone (possibly an instructor) to sit next to you while you get familiar with your new aircraft. This is legal as long as you are P1 which you will be because you have your licence (and tailwheel sign off etc.) However the other person is there as an 'adviser' while you get used to the aircraft rather than giving training.
Ths way you can own a PFA or Private Cat aircraft which are cheaper and allows you a wider range of aircraft types.
The likelihood is that you will not want a Public Transport aircraft once you have your licence, but you will need one if you want to train in it. Hence my suggestion that you wait until you have your licence to buy something and get some assistance (ie not training) to convert onto it to be able to fly it well and safely.
ZA
Thanks for pointing out my ambiguity.
What I meant was get the licence you need at a flying school and then get someone (possibly an instructor) to sit next to you while you get familiar with your new aircraft. This is legal as long as you are P1 which you will be because you have your licence (and tailwheel sign off etc.) However the other person is there as an 'adviser' while you get used to the aircraft rather than giving training.
Ths way you can own a PFA or Private Cat aircraft which are cheaper and allows you a wider range of aircraft types.
The likelihood is that you will not want a Public Transport aircraft once you have your licence, but you will need one if you want to train in it. Hence my suggestion that you wait until you have your licence to buy something and get some assistance (ie not training) to convert onto it to be able to fly it well and safely.
ZA
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Cheers guys,
The requirements for the aircraft have now changed somewhat. We have decided that we want a fully IFR equipped aircraft. I guess that this rules out most, if not all C150/152s and PA-38s. Are there many IFR equipped Cherokees out there?
Because of now requiring an IFR equipped aircraft we could probably stretch to £30k between us, so what could we get for this price?
The requirements for the aircraft have now changed somewhat. We have decided that we want a fully IFR equipped aircraft. I guess that this rules out most, if not all C150/152s and PA-38s. Are there many IFR equipped Cherokees out there?
Because of now requiring an IFR equipped aircraft we could probably stretch to £30k between us, so what could we get for this price?
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Because of now requiring an IFR equipped aircraft we could probably stretch to £30k between us,
For full IFR you really need an Instrument rating to fully use it so probably over the top. IMHO what you need to be well fitted out is, VOR/DME & Transponder whith mode C, from this you can expand to - GPS, ILS, ADF, second Altimeter. and that is the order of importance I would probably put them in, possibly swapping GPS and ILS depending on where you operate from.
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If you are still only training why don't you complete that first, do a season in an inexpensive aircraft to increase your skill and confidence and trade up later.
At the moment you are concentrating on the flying. Ownership is a whole new ball-game and you have no idea as to how the group will work out. I think most people would advise being a member of a pre-existing group first to see the pitfalls and to reduce risk
Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears
At the moment you are concentrating on the flying. Ownership is a whole new ball-game and you have no idea as to how the group will work out. I think most people would advise being a member of a pre-existing group first to see the pitfalls and to reduce risk
Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears
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Oxeagle
No way to get an airways legal aircraft (UK only, or UK+Europe) for £30k.
A few years ago I was looking for an IFR aircraft which would be legal around Europe and it was just about doable for about £60k, if you got lucky. But if you want to fly above FL095 (often necessary for both weather and airway MEA reasons) then you need an BRNAV GPS which, as a minimum, is an IFR approved GNS430. Personally I think the moving map on a 430 is very small. But you also need an ADF, DME and a load of other stuff which all has to work and you aren't likely to get that for £60k, and if you did it will probably be on its last legs. The entry level for European IFR is likely to be over £100k and you are looking at something around the level of a good condition TB10 or (if you want something really capable) a TB20. Or the Piper/Cessna stuff if you like that sort of thing
However I suspect you are after "UK IFR" i.e. flying around Class G on the IMC Rating, and for that the legal equipment requirement is minimal. The practical requirement is going to be a decent panel mounted GPS backed up by a VOR and DME. For IFR in Class D you need extra stuff - look at Schedules 4 and 5 of the ANO.
For IFR (in VMC or in IMC) in Class G in the UK, almost any old piece of bent metal will be legal. Whether you, a father of six children say, will want to is another matter
Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears
The ownership argument cuts both ways. Yes it's a steep learning curve, and this is not cheap hobby, but nothing will do as much for your flying enjoyment, and safety (through currency) as good access to something decent. I was looking to buy shortly after starting my PPL (it was pretty obvious there was no other way) and my chief regret is that I was not able to do it sooner. Of course the instructors got really p1ssed off over this, not least because they could see they weren't going to get much self fly hire income out of me. That's one of the biggest pitfalls in ownership - in GA you never quite know who is grinding what axe.
No way to get an airways legal aircraft (UK only, or UK+Europe) for £30k.
A few years ago I was looking for an IFR aircraft which would be legal around Europe and it was just about doable for about £60k, if you got lucky. But if you want to fly above FL095 (often necessary for both weather and airway MEA reasons) then you need an BRNAV GPS which, as a minimum, is an IFR approved GNS430. Personally I think the moving map on a 430 is very small. But you also need an ADF, DME and a load of other stuff which all has to work and you aren't likely to get that for £60k, and if you did it will probably be on its last legs. The entry level for European IFR is likely to be over £100k and you are looking at something around the level of a good condition TB10 or (if you want something really capable) a TB20. Or the Piper/Cessna stuff if you like that sort of thing
However I suspect you are after "UK IFR" i.e. flying around Class G on the IMC Rating, and for that the legal equipment requirement is minimal. The practical requirement is going to be a decent panel mounted GPS backed up by a VOR and DME. For IFR in Class D you need extra stuff - look at Schedules 4 and 5 of the ANO.
For IFR (in VMC or in IMC) in Class G in the UK, almost any old piece of bent metal will be legal. Whether you, a father of six children say, will want to is another matter
Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears
The ownership argument cuts both ways. Yes it's a steep learning curve, and this is not cheap hobby, but nothing will do as much for your flying enjoyment, and safety (through currency) as good access to something decent. I was looking to buy shortly after starting my PPL (it was pretty obvious there was no other way) and my chief regret is that I was not able to do it sooner. Of course the instructors got really p1ssed off over this, not least because they could see they weren't going to get much self fly hire income out of me. That's one of the biggest pitfalls in ownership - in GA you never quite know who is grinding what axe.
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IO540
All very true, but looking back at my training days, I think you need some time to consolidate the training and shouldn't rush too quickly down a particular (and quite expensive) route.
Still - not my money
All very true, but looking back at my training days, I think you need some time to consolidate the training and shouldn't rush too quickly down a particular (and quite expensive) route.
Still - not my money
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Originally Posted by robin
I think you need some time to consolidate the training and shouldn't rush too quickly down a particular (and quite expensive) route.
Still - not my money
Still - not my money
Right oxeagle?
I agree with Robin though, maybe it's worth finishing your training and then look at getting an aircraft if you still fancy it. Owning an aircraft can take a lot of time and money which you may not like to give inbetween lessons (?) Just a thought.
IO540
If you go the N reg route you can get a decent IFR aircraft for a lot cheaper than £60K! It might not be a TB10 but it would have all the equipment.
Last edited by SkyHawk-N; 21st Apr 2006 at 15:58.
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk-N
Don't worry about oxeagle's money, he's in IT, he's loaded ....
Right oxeagle?
Right oxeagle?
Still living with parents so its quite a cushty arrangement, I can spend all of my money on flying which suits me just fine
I see your and Robin's point about getting an aircraft after finishing my PPL, but I did the maths and if you exclude the fixed cost of purchasing the aircraft (because it's a share I'll sell it when i've finished PPL and hour building with the aircraft) then it works out about the same as doing the PPL in the US, and i'd rather do it here in my own aircraft (damn that would sound good, MY aircraft! 
). All depends on what the other potential group members want.Thats a point, does anyone here fly Robin HR-200s? I've seen a really nice one for sale at a good price, wouldnt mind someones opinion of them!
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OK, there are too many people posting stuff here (incl. myself) which varies hugely according to their own perspective, and the perspective isn't always obvious.
If you are learning to fly to go places then the choice of aircraft is quite narrow. It's going to be a good IFR-capable 4-seater, and you need the budget for playing the game at that level. BTW Skyhawk I know quite a lot about N-reg myself
and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME
There is a number of different types any of which would do the job well enough and if you buy one of them you won't go far wrong, and it comes down to personal preference. I don't like 1-door planes (e.g. PA28) and don't like high-wing.
You can "go places" in something a lot less capable but then you are looking at VFR and yes it can be done, I've done it and I know a few of the tricks you use to fly VFR "imaginatively". But you need a lot more time, to get stuck in places. If you have plenty of time, you can do it quite cheaply in any of the very capable modern Permit types.
If you are learning to fly to just bimble around, or do aerobatics, or you haven't got any money, then it's a whole different argument and I would wholly agree with those who advise to get the PPL and try different things and see what you like best.
If you are learning to fly to go places then the choice of aircraft is quite narrow. It's going to be a good IFR-capable 4-seater, and you need the budget for playing the game at that level. BTW Skyhawk I know quite a lot about N-reg myself
and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME There is a number of different types any of which would do the job well enough and if you buy one of them you won't go far wrong, and it comes down to personal preference. I don't like 1-door planes (e.g. PA28) and don't like high-wing.
You can "go places" in something a lot less capable but then you are looking at VFR and yes it can be done, I've done it and I know a few of the tricks you use to fly VFR "imaginatively". But you need a lot more time, to get stuck in places. If you have plenty of time, you can do it quite cheaply in any of the very capable modern Permit types.
If you are learning to fly to just bimble around, or do aerobatics, or you haven't got any money, then it's a whole different argument and I would wholly agree with those who advise to get the PPL and try different things and see what you like best.
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Originally Posted by IO540
BTW Skyhawk I know quite a lot about N-reg myself and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME
and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME 
and I do have ADF and DME
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IO540,
Myself and the other share holders would be, after completing our PPLs in the aircraft, looking to hour build using this aircraft, which we would also like to involve a good deal of touring around the UK and to other European counteries. That's the reason for wanting an IFR equipped aircraft, although we realise realistically with the money we have don't have much choice, so we may just go for an aircraft with a decent VFR fit and partial IFR capability.
On a different note, I personally like the Grumman AA5 and Robin HR-200, are these good choices do you think?
Myself and the other share holders would be, after completing our PPLs in the aircraft, looking to hour build using this aircraft, which we would also like to involve a good deal of touring around the UK and to other European counteries. That's the reason for wanting an IFR equipped aircraft, although we realise realistically with the money we have don't have much choice, so we may just go for an aircraft with a decent VFR fit and partial IFR capability.
On a different note, I personally like the Grumman AA5 and Robin HR-200, are these good choices do you think?
There is, of-course, a difference between IFR equipped and airways equipped!
Oxeagle I recommend investing in a copy of a book called "The book of flight tests" by Alan Bramson. It's not so far as I know in print, but pretty easy to find second hand - it'll answer a lot of your specific questions about particular types.
G
Oxeagle I recommend investing in a copy of a book called "The book of flight tests" by Alan Bramson. It's not so far as I know in print, but pretty easy to find second hand - it'll answer a lot of your specific questions about particular types.
G