Starting an aircraft share group
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OK Skyhawk, please spell out how I can save myself a bundle by being on N-reg (I already am on N-reg but would still like to know 
)
Compared to being on G under the Private regime.
One can do a considerable amount of chipping away around the edges, e.g. not doing "mandatory" SBs which under FAA are not actually mandatory but under EASA they have to be done, usually completely pointlessly, but on a piston aircraft it doesn't translate to a lot of £ per hour of airborne time.
)Compared to being on G under the Private regime.
One can do a considerable amount of chipping away around the edges, e.g. not doing "mandatory" SBs which under FAA are not actually mandatory but under EASA they have to be done, usually completely pointlessly, but on a piston aircraft it doesn't translate to a lot of £ per hour of airborne time.
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Originally Posted by IO540
OK Skyhawk, please spell out how I can save myself a bundle by being on N-reg (I already am on N-reg but would still like to know )
)
Originally Posted by IO540
you also need an ADF, DME and a load of other stuff which all has to work and you aren't likely to get that for £60k, and if you did it will probably be on its last legs.
). There are many suitable IFR equipped aircraft in the USA which could be purchased to provide a budget VFR and IFR hour builder and I don't need to say why it will be cheaper to operate. If you want a nice gleaming, more modern, more powerful IFR aircraft I agree it will cost more than £60k.Just my opinion
BTW: All SB's done.
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Importing
SkyHawk-N,
May I please enquire;
What the cost of ferrying was?
Did you ferry it youself or go to a ferrying company?
Were there were any other importing costs?
Broomstick.
May I please enquire;
What the cost of ferrying was?
Did you ferry it youself or go to a ferrying company?
Were there were any other importing costs?
Broomstick.
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"There are many suitable IFR equipped aircraft in the USA which could be purchased to provide a budget VFR and IFR hour builder"
[my emphasis]
Again, we are discussing a wholly different purpose. I automatically (and in your case wrongly) assumed that the owner will want to go somewhere in the plane. Perhaps with friends/family, as tends to be the case on longer trips.
If you want to "hour build", under IFR, even in actual IMC, you can do it in any old bit of bent metal, and if you have a GPS somewhere you won't get lost.
On £60k, it's going to be a little more tricky to get something legal for IFR throughout Europe, remembering FM Immunity on VOR/LOC stuff and with the practically mandatory IFR certified BRNAV GPS installation. Not to say it can't be done but I've looked and never saw anything remotely near.
The basic reason is that a functioning spamcan (that isn't falling apart) is a good £30k; that will get you something like a PA28 and the avionics go on top of that. Then you are in the "should I fit gold plated bathroom taps in my council house bathroom" situation.
[my emphasis]
Again, we are discussing a wholly different purpose. I automatically (and in your case wrongly) assumed that the owner will want to go somewhere in the plane. Perhaps with friends/family, as tends to be the case on longer trips.
If you want to "hour build", under IFR, even in actual IMC, you can do it in any old bit of bent metal, and if you have a GPS somewhere you won't get lost.
On £60k, it's going to be a little more tricky to get something legal for IFR throughout Europe, remembering FM Immunity on VOR/LOC stuff and with the practically mandatory IFR certified BRNAV GPS installation. Not to say it can't be done but I've looked and never saw anything remotely near.
The basic reason is that a functioning spamcan (that isn't falling apart) is a good £30k; that will get you something like a PA28 and the avionics go on top of that. Then you are in the "should I fit gold plated bathroom taps in my council house bathroom" situation.
Originally Posted by IO540
If you want to "hour build", under IFR, even in actual IMC, you can do it in any old bit of bent metal, and if you have a GPS somewhere you won't get lost.
The ideal would probably be VOR + VOR/DME/ILS + ADF + GPS which will allow pretty much anything you'd ever want to practice.
G
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Originally Posted by IO540
Then you are in the "should I fit gold plated bathroom taps in my council house bathroom" situation.
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At the risk of propagating a discussion in which the wires may already be substantially crossed, for European IFR you need to meet the respective national requirements for IFR, which can be found in the AIPs as I wrote earlier.
In practice this means VOR, DME, ADF, ILS, BRNAV GPS (panel mounted obviously). Plus a second altimeter and other stuff I don't remember. I wouldn't fly IFR/airways with less, because if I got turned over on the ground it would be really obvious. It's a bit like flying an NDB approach without an ADF; I've seen good arguments that it's probably not illegal in Class G but that is hugely restrictive in the UK and useless abroad.
Mode S is also mandatory; concessions or no concessions you will have to fit it anyway pretty soon. That's £3000 or so.
To be 100% legal there is a mind-bending list of trivia and one could get awfully anally retentive about the exact wording of the POH supplement for the BRNAV GPS for example. Almost nobody understands this stuff which is just as well.
A lot of planes simply cannot take this equipment. Not enough panel space, or you could do it with a completely new panel but that's a very expensive exercise (which avionics shops really love).
Finally, remember that secondhand avionics fetch almost nothing. I sold a good-as-new KT76C Mode C (with all the documentation) on U.S. Ebay for US$1300 but that won't work for anything old.
In practice this means VOR, DME, ADF, ILS, BRNAV GPS (panel mounted obviously). Plus a second altimeter and other stuff I don't remember. I wouldn't fly IFR/airways with less, because if I got turned over on the ground it would be really obvious. It's a bit like flying an NDB approach without an ADF; I've seen good arguments that it's probably not illegal in Class G but that is hugely restrictive in the UK and useless abroad.
Mode S is also mandatory; concessions or no concessions you will have to fit it anyway pretty soon. That's £3000 or so.
To be 100% legal there is a mind-bending list of trivia and one could get awfully anally retentive about the exact wording of the POH supplement for the BRNAV GPS for example. Almost nobody understands this stuff which is just as well.
A lot of planes simply cannot take this equipment. Not enough panel space, or you could do it with a completely new panel but that's a very expensive exercise (which avionics shops really love).
Finally, remember that secondhand avionics fetch almost nothing. I sold a good-as-new KT76C Mode C (with all the documentation) on U.S. Ebay for US$1300 but that won't work for anything old.
If you're still pre PPL, then I suggest what you are looking for is an aircaft you can complete your IMC rating and exercise your rating. For this, a PA28-140 (which is what you're looking at with your budget) would be ideal. If you are later (and this I suspect would be much later) looking to do your IRs, then think about trading up.
But when it comes to groups, here's some benefit of my experience having been a member of a few.
1. A private CofA is adquate for post PPL and a bit cheaper than Public Transport.
2. Limit the number of members to a maximum of 8. Any more and you will have problems with utilisation and personalities.
3. Have a set system of rules for booking. An internet web site with a booking page is best. It's a pain in the bum when you've just driven 100 miles to find the chap who took the booking entered your details on the wrong page of the diary and the aircraft is in France!
4. Have a set level of experience for members joining. I suggest 100 hours post award of PPL is realistic. I know this won't apply to you as you will have yet to finish yours, but I suggest any future joiners should be restricted.
5. And while we're on this subject, have a set of rules in place to ensure that when members leave the group they only sell their share to people acceptable to other members.
6. Price you hours realisticly. Run an engine fund with the intention of replacing the engine at 2000 hours. Don't expect the engine to last more 'on condition'. With several people flying it, it won't! And when buying the aircraft, get one with plenty of hours left. The price you pay to fly will go up if the engine has 1800hrs when you buy it. Also, add some extra cost to run a fund for contingencies.
7. Set the group up as a Limited Company with each member owning a share in the company rather than a share in the aircraft. This is easier and cheaper than you think and will stop your aircraft being sequestrated if a member is declared bankrupt. It also gives you some protection if anything drastic goes wrong, but the members who volunteer to be directors have some liability.
All these recommendations come from hard experience! And expect to fall out with your group members from time to time - even if you were good friends when the group formed!
But when it comes to groups, here's some benefit of my experience having been a member of a few.
1. A private CofA is adquate for post PPL and a bit cheaper than Public Transport.
2. Limit the number of members to a maximum of 8. Any more and you will have problems with utilisation and personalities.
3. Have a set system of rules for booking. An internet web site with a booking page is best. It's a pain in the bum when you've just driven 100 miles to find the chap who took the booking entered your details on the wrong page of the diary and the aircraft is in France!
4. Have a set level of experience for members joining. I suggest 100 hours post award of PPL is realistic. I know this won't apply to you as you will have yet to finish yours, but I suggest any future joiners should be restricted.
5. And while we're on this subject, have a set of rules in place to ensure that when members leave the group they only sell their share to people acceptable to other members.
6. Price you hours realisticly. Run an engine fund with the intention of replacing the engine at 2000 hours. Don't expect the engine to last more 'on condition'. With several people flying it, it won't! And when buying the aircraft, get one with plenty of hours left. The price you pay to fly will go up if the engine has 1800hrs when you buy it. Also, add some extra cost to run a fund for contingencies.
7. Set the group up as a Limited Company with each member owning a share in the company rather than a share in the aircraft. This is easier and cheaper than you think and will stop your aircraft being sequestrated if a member is declared bankrupt. It also gives you some protection if anything drastic goes wrong, but the members who volunteer to be directors have some liability.
All these recommendations come from hard experience! And expect to fall out with your group members from time to time - even if you were good friends when the group formed!
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Can't train in a Private CofA plane for the initial award of a licence or a rating - unless
a) the instructor doesn't charge for the flying, or
b) you own it outright **
** with some additional concessions like a spouse of the owner, and IIRC directors of a limited company owning the plane can all train - the CAA has issued a flyer on this which I don't remember
a) the instructor doesn't charge for the flying, or
b) you own it outright **
** with some additional concessions like a spouse of the owner, and IIRC directors of a limited company owning the plane can all train - the CAA has issued a flyer on this which I don't remember
And I should have mentioned that owning an aeroplane as a group may not be that much cheaper than renting. What it does is give you more flexibilty and of course the pleasure of owning an aeroplane. This is why you should complete your PPL before buying.
This of course depends on where you base your aircraft. there may be a small unlicenced airfield or strip near you with much less charges - a massive saving which isn't available to you when training.
A Flight Engineer I know once gave me some good advice. If it flys, floats or f##ks, it's usually cheaper to rent!
This of course depends on where you base your aircraft. there may be a small unlicenced airfield or strip near you with much less charges - a massive saving which isn't available to you when training.
A Flight Engineer I know once gave me some good advice. If it flys, floats or f##ks, it's usually cheaper to rent!
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
This of course depends on where you base your aircraft. there may be a small unlicenced airfield or strip near you with much less charges - a massive saving which isn't available to you when training.
We've possibly found the perfect aircraft for us, a Cessna 150 Aerobat with very low engine hours, and we've worked out that its going to cost us around £100 per month fixed costs and about £30 per hour, which is much much better than the £120 per hour I pay at the moment! Only have to use it 2 hours every month for it to be worth it, although I plan to use it a lot lot more than that Oh by the way, we currently need 2 other pilots to form the group, as one will probably not be able to take part, so anyone within the Oxfordshire area (Abingdon, Oxford, Chipping Norton, bandbury, Witney etc) who might be interested PM me
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I assume that the £30 is the 'dry rate'. Don't discount fuel costs and engine fund in your costings, even if you only intend to keep it for a short term. It is better to set up some reserves early
