Collision Risks?
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Collision Risks?
It has struck me recently, that alot of pilots I know who fly out of smaller airfrields with no atsu seem to take off, head into the open FIR without even a thought given to calling a radar unit for Flight information or radar information service.....despite the fact that in my case there are at least 3 radar units able to cover the said area.
Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.
Don't get me wrong....I'm all for getting up there among the clouds with no radio etc and having a gay old time. (I used to enjoy this pastime myself when I lived in a remote northern location!) But the fact is that in Southern parts of the country, traffic density in uncontrolled airspace is so high these days that there are real collision risks.
I think it would be nice if everyone at least had their transponder switched on (preferably with mode C on) to give radar units a chance to perhaps give another aircraft recieving a service from them avoiding action. Even give the local radar unit a call to make yourself known....the R/T practise may even be benificial.
Its wise to remember that by making yourself more visable not only safeguards others, but also yourself......a mid-air will in all probability, result in all involved getting killed.
Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.
Don't get me wrong....I'm all for getting up there among the clouds with no radio etc and having a gay old time. (I used to enjoy this pastime myself when I lived in a remote northern location!) But the fact is that in Southern parts of the country, traffic density in uncontrolled airspace is so high these days that there are real collision risks.
I think it would be nice if everyone at least had their transponder switched on (preferably with mode C on) to give radar units a chance to perhaps give another aircraft recieving a service from them avoiding action. Even give the local radar unit a call to make yourself known....the R/T practise may even be benificial.
Its wise to remember that by making yourself more visable not only safeguards others, but also yourself......a mid-air will in all probability, result in all involved getting killed.
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When flying VMC/VFR...........................
Lookout!!
Lookout!!
Lookout!!
With Mono on this one.......... or I would have been if he hadn't removed his post whilst I was writing this one
Lookout!!
Lookout!!
Lookout!!
With Mono on this one.......... or I would have been if he hadn't removed his post whilst I was writing this one
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I only bother to call them if I am enroute somewhere with a plan. Otherwise I take off (on the edge of a MATZ) depart and don't talk to a sausage.....It's a whole new way of flying to me, and I must say it is very enjoyable....
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>>>>Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.<<<<
It is more likely they do have radar contact with conflicting or 'pop-up' traffic. It is possible that they may not be in radio contact, either because they are non-radio or because they are working another frequency. Some of us don't fly with transponders as we don't have sufficient power available for a radio, GPS and transponder.
The answer is the same - in the open FIR you keep your eyes open.
It is more likely they do have radar contact with conflicting or 'pop-up' traffic. It is possible that they may not be in radio contact, either because they are non-radio or because they are working another frequency. Some of us don't fly with transponders as we don't have sufficient power available for a radio, GPS and transponder.
The answer is the same - in the open FIR you keep your eyes open.
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Perhaps even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on....so even if I am under a FIS/RIS its possible the controller may not have radar contact with potential conflicting traffic.
SS
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Rather than worrying about the nearly infinitesimal risk that collision poses I would suggest you concentrate on landings, avoiding controlled flight into terrain and takeoffs. All strangely are almost fully under the control of the pilot and collectively account for just about all accidents in light aircraft.
If you honestly think that a FIS or RIS is going to stop you bumping into someone you are likely to be sadly disillusioned. The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments and are usually down to pilots poor situational awareness.
At the end of the day it is VFR
As the others have already piled in - Look out of the windows. After all why else do you fly?
Happy landings
If you honestly think that a FIS or RIS is going to stop you bumping into someone you are likely to be sadly disillusioned. The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments and are usually down to pilots poor situational awareness.
At the end of the day it is VFR
As the others have already piled in - Look out of the windows. After all why else do you fly?
Happy landings
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This whole business of mid-air risk is massively overdone.
Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all
) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something. This includes doing it in controlled airspace, too.....
Contrary to the old school, a lookout doesn't do much because a target on a genuine collission course will be a stationary point in the sky and probably won't be spotted. In the context of straight line flight, "lookout" is an illusion. Probably works well with gliders and other traffic that goes around and around.
An FIS ("seven aircraft known in the area") is worthless for this purpose.
As gasax says, better to work on not smashing the plane on landing, or into the side of a hill
I do think Mode C should be mandatory everywhere, for all powered aircraft. Then, an RIS would be a lot more useful.
Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all
) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something. This includes doing it in controlled airspace, too.....Contrary to the old school, a lookout doesn't do much because a target on a genuine collission course will be a stationary point in the sky and probably won't be spotted. In the context of straight line flight, "lookout" is an illusion. Probably works well with gliders and other traffic that goes around and around.
An FIS ("seven aircraft known in the area") is worthless for this purpose.
As gasax says, better to work on not smashing the plane on landing, or into the side of a hill
I do think Mode C should be mandatory everywhere, for all powered aircraft. Then, an RIS would be a lot more useful.
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I always seek a RIS or if not FIS when ever its available, its not an "either or" between lookout and FIS & RIS, common sense says it should be both where possible. Listening for information doesn't affect lookout but it might help you look in the right direction.
I know the chance of a midair is slim , but I cant see any reason not to make a little slimmer if I can.
I know the chance of a midair is slim , but I cant see any reason not to make a little slimmer if I can.
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The basic point is that no matter what service you get, you will fail to spot the majority of the traffic that is actually there.
Partly this is because (and this is in the RIS context) so many people don't have or don't use transponders so the ATC has to pass you traffic which is vertically nowhere near you.
Partly this is because most people don't talk to their FIS frequency, or to anybody. Just as well because if they all did, London Info would immediately collapse. Let's say LI says "15 planes in your area". So what? In reality there will be at least 50. You are keeping a lookout anyway. You can't keep a more vigorous lookout, and information which cannot be acted on effectively is useless.
I know this stuff id drummed into our heads during the PPL, but so are so many other myths that have been propagating in the GA rumour mill since WW1.
Partly this is because (and this is in the RIS context) so many people don't have or don't use transponders so the ATC has to pass you traffic which is vertically nowhere near you.
Partly this is because most people don't talk to their FIS frequency, or to anybody. Just as well because if they all did, London Info would immediately collapse. Let's say LI says "15 planes in your area". So what? In reality there will be at least 50. You are keeping a lookout anyway. You can't keep a more vigorous lookout, and information which cannot be acted on effectively is useless.
I know this stuff id drummed into our heads during the PPL, but so are so many other myths that have been propagating in the GA rumour mill since WW1.
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I was once on a VFR flight on a very nice sunny day and was under RIS. I got a call telling me of traffic directly ahead of me 3 miles, no height information. I looked and looked but couldn't see anything. A minute later a call came in telling me it was now 1 mile ahead, I looked everywhere but still couldn't see it. I was getting a bit concerned at this point as I am usually quite good at spotting others so I kept scanning the sky ahead, to the sides and even slightly behind. Suddenly I looked straight UP and saw a glider not very far away flying in exactly the same direction at about the same speed , from the ground it would have looked like we were flying in formation. I made an immediate course and altitude change as the glider pilot would never have known I was there.
If it hadn't been for the constant RIS notifications, even though their distances were slightly out, I MAY have never seen the other aircraft.
Draw from this what you will.
Skyhawk.
, from the ground it would have looked like we were flying in formation. I made an immediate course and altitude change as the glider pilot would never have known I was there.If it hadn't been for the constant RIS notifications, even though their distances were slightly out, I MAY have never seen the other aircraft.
Draw from this what you will.
Skyhawk.
Last edited by SkyHawk-N; 9th Feb 2006 at 15:39.
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I think perhaps peoples opinions vary depending on the quality of service they have recieved. As IO540 says "15 planes in your area" is hardly helpfull
However "trafic 12 oclock position reciprocal heading showing similar height"
may just be very helpfull, especially on a murky day, flying into the sun
I have to say the FIS & RIS from linton on ouse, waddington and humberside are excelent Thankyou to anyone from those places for a superb job.
However "trafic 12 oclock position reciprocal heading showing similar height"
may just be very helpfull, especially on a murky day, flying into the sun
I have to say the FIS & RIS from linton on ouse, waddington and humberside are excelent Thankyou to anyone from those places for a superb job.
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If I got a "traffic 12 o'clock, same height, reciprocal heading, 2 miles.... 1 mile" I would respond with "copy traffic, turning right 20 degrees"
Why bet when you know the odds are against you.
Why bet when you know the odds are against you.
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I wrote:
But just to add to this, when I fly in the USA in places like the LA Basin, I ALWAYS ask for Radar service (unless I'm in a funky aircraft with a TIS)....This is because the risk of collision there is what I would call relatively high, it has happened before and everyone I know who flies there has had a "close call" at some time....including me.....
I only bother to call them if I am enroute somewhere with a plan. Otherwise I take off (on the edge of a MATZ) depart and don't talk to a sausage.....It's a whole new way of flying to me, and I must say it is very enjoyable....
If you're on an ATC frequency being provided with FIS, apart from looking out yourself, surely it's beneficial to hear other traffic calling in on the frequency, and you then think, 'oh that puts him about 5 miles ahead of me on a crossing track' (or something similar) so it actually assists you even if ATC haven't passed you traffic info.
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Originally Posted by IO540
This whole business of mid-air risk is massively overdone.
Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all ) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something.
Apart from close to airfields (e.g. the Stapleford/Wellesbourne sunny Sunday free for all
) it is as close to zero as one can get. In an aircraft with infinite endurance, etc, you could fly on random trajectories, above the MSA obviously, blindfold, and it is 99% sure you would die of old age before hitting something.(Sounds like a question for what used to be the whacky physics paper in the Cambridge entrance exam. Optional paper, full of daft questions like this where you're given no data and have to guess all the parameters; lots of brownie points if you give good answers, no penalties for making a complete cock-up of the entire paper.)
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booke23 -
With all due respect, I think you must either be dangling a hook with this thread or you are a very clever troll. I have never been quite this blunt before on PPRuNe but I do believe you are talking out of your chocolate tea towel holder.
Yes, indeed. This is me every time I fly from my strip. Is this dangerous?
Do you assume that everyone has one? I don't, and I can name 14 flying friends who also don't. Does this make us more risky airborne obstructions?
Thanks for the tip.
And this bit....
is a peach. I will bear this in mind in future.
booke23 - AndyR referred to a post I made last night. I decided to delete it as it might have offended. In hindsight, 24 hours later, I still find your comments quite incredible. Please bear in mind that we're not all out there collecting gold stripes in the hunt for the RHS of one of Boeing's finest. Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it and would rather apply wet-look hair gel that install a transponder
The day I stop maintaining a good look out is the day I become unsafe and the day I stop flying. Please don't be so dogmatic about the importance of instruments in aircraft. Although useful, I do not believe they help prevent "getting killed".
With all due respect, I think you must either be dangling a hook with this thread or you are a very clever troll. I have never been quite this blunt before on PPRuNe but I do believe you are talking out of your chocolate tea towel holder.
seem to take off, head into the open FIR without even a thought given to calling a radar unit for Flight information or radar information service
even more disturbing is that alot of these guys don't even switch their transponders on
Its wise to remember that by making yourself more visable not only safeguards others, but also yourself
And this bit....
a mid-air will in all probability, result in all involved getting killed.
booke23 - AndyR referred to a post I made last night. I decided to delete it as it might have offended. In hindsight, 24 hours later, I still find your comments quite incredible. Please bear in mind that we're not all out there collecting gold stripes in the hunt for the RHS of one of Boeing's finest. Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it and would rather apply wet-look hair gel that install a transponder
The day I stop maintaining a good look out is the day I become unsafe and the day I stop flying. Please don't be so dogmatic about the importance of instruments in aircraft. Although useful, I do not believe they help prevent "getting killed".
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I wonder whether the poor unfortunates who have lost their lives in the San Diego mid-air thought that having a transponder or even ATC service was keeping them safe.
No amount of technology will stop people crashing into each other unless they see each other.
No amount of technology will stop people crashing into each other unless they see each other.
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Thank you all for your coments.
To put my post into perspective I am refering to flight in the south of the country where oper FIR is pretty limited and usually very crowded.
gasax - I see you're in Aderdeen...I've flown up there a few times and know that talking about collision risk in the FIR must seem very alien to you.....and rightly so.....if only all of the country was as blissfully deserted as most of the scottish FIR.
"The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments"
I'm afraid your above comment is completly untrue........as far as GA is concerned the most collisions/near hits occur in the circuit of uncontrolled airfields...(FISO, A/G radio are not controlled environments)
Its true to say collision risk is low......I only posted to highlight the complete disregard some pilots give to reducing collision risk ......I'm talking about guys who hire well equipped club aircraft and don't bother to turn the transponder on. I'm not referring to privately owned aircraft not equipped with transponders...its an expensive bit of equiptment.
Monocock - You attitude to flight safely is astounding........and frankly frightening. I'm not going to waste my time addressing your inane rantings.
However with an attitude like that I'm sure it won't be long before I get to read your autobiography entitled "AAIB bulliten 08/2007"
"Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it"
Don't we all?
To put my post into perspective I am refering to flight in the south of the country where oper FIR is pretty limited and usually very crowded.
gasax - I see you're in Aderdeen...I've flown up there a few times and know that talking about collision risk in the FIR must seem very alien to you.....and rightly so.....if only all of the country was as blissfully deserted as most of the scottish FIR.
"The vast majority of 'near hits' occur in controlled traffic environments"
I'm afraid your above comment is completly untrue........as far as GA is concerned the most collisions/near hits occur in the circuit of uncontrolled airfields...(FISO, A/G radio are not controlled environments)
Its true to say collision risk is low......I only posted to highlight the complete disregard some pilots give to reducing collision risk ......I'm talking about guys who hire well equipped club aircraft and don't bother to turn the transponder on. I'm not referring to privately owned aircraft not equipped with transponders...its an expensive bit of equiptment.
Monocock - You attitude to flight safely is astounding........and frankly frightening. I'm not going to waste my time addressing your inane rantings.
However with an attitude like that I'm sure it won't be long before I get to read your autobiography entitled "AAIB bulliten 08/2007"
"Some of us fly for the sheer fun of it"
Don't we all?
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I wonder whether the poor unfortunates who have lost their lives in the San Diego mid-air thought that having a transponder or even ATC service was keeping them safe.
