JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

[leonbrumsack]

I'm sorry if this question has been asked; I have tried searching and no matter what I type in, I get no results.

I've been looking into maybe doing a PPL in the USA this summer. One site talks of JAR Compliant PPL and JAA PPL, but I don't really understand the difference. The site seems to imply that the JAR Compliant PPL has a number of advantages, but I don't know whether they are in any way biased.

Any information would be very much appreciated.

Happy New Year all - cheers,

Leon

[Keygrip]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

"JAR compliant" is the long way of writing "FAA PPL" - which you could do at ANY US based school.

[Hour Builder]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

A FAA licence is obviously not JAR compliant, and the school really shouldnt be saying that it is.

As leonbrumsack mentions training in the states, what this could mean is that although training is done in the states, its for the grant of a JAR licence, and the school write "JAR complient" on the website or whatever in order to show that the school in question is JAR approved.

leonbrumsack what school are you talking about? have you go the link to the website?

HB

[leonbrumsack]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

http://www.ukft.com/FAQAirplane.htm is the flying school in question. Although I have 4 hours on a PA28 (from 5 years ago, when I was 15) I'm not too knowledgable in this area, so just wanted some extra info.

Many thanks for your input!

Leon

[Hour Builder]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Ok, from what I gather with this site, is that you get a FAA licence.

Check out this link to their site

http://www.ukft.com/AboutUs.htm#JAAExaminer

It shows that this school cannot conduct JAR training any longer, but use to be able too until they voluntarily stopped providing that service. However, there is a procedure to convert a FAA licence over to the JAR licence by doing the theory and flight test blah blah, which I can only guess is what happens at this school, as they have a UK JAR Flight examiner.

Its basically a loop-hole they have found, not shelling out the cost for a UK JAR school approval/renewal fees, and doing it as a FAA licence and then converting it over by having an JAR examiner on the payroll..

I may (and more often then not am) be totally wrong, but thats what it looks like to me.

HB

[leonbrumsack]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

OK - now I don't want to sound like a total cretin, but could somebody briefly explain the differences between JAR and JAA? Sorry to sound thick... but I am!

[BEagle]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Caveat emptor!

Yes, an FAA PPL can be 'converted' into a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A). But to do so, you will need:

1. To pass all the JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical examinations plus the FRTOL practical test. (If you have more than 100 hours on aeroplanes, then it'll just be Air Law, Human Performance, Communications (PPL) plus the FRTOL practical test.).

2. To hold a JAA Class 2 (or Class 1) medical certificate.

3. Meet all the JAR-FCL 1.125(b) experience requirements (not required if you have more than 100 hours on aeroplanes).

4. Pass the full JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test with a JAR-FCL Examiner.

Bearing in mind that you can fly in the UK under Day VFR conditions using an FAA PPL, my recommendation would be (if you really must go to the USA) to train for the plain vanilla FAA PPL, then build up to 100 hours in the US or UK before converting to a JAR-FCL PPL(A).


And ask yourself why any school would 'voluntarily' stop JAR-FCL PPL training in the US...............

[Hour Builder]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

The JAA stands for Joint Aviation Authorites, and are all the authorities that are members of the JAA such as UK, France, Germany......etc etc

check out the www.jaa.nl (i think) and click on "licensing"

JAR are the Joint Aviaiton Regulations, which are the regulations that all the JAA's adhere to.

Does that help

[Hour Builder]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Originally Posted by BEagle

And ask yourself why any school would 'voluntarily' stop JAR-FCL PPL training in the US...............

all of this guys post was true, non more so then the comment I've highlighted above.

[BEagle]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

JAA = Joint Aviation Authorities
JAR = Joint Aviation Requirements
JAR-FCL = Joint Aviation Requirements-Flight Crew Licensing

It's all in LASORS 2006 - see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf and download it FREE!

[leonbrumsack]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Thanks for all the info, guys. I will do some reading and try to fathom out what is going on! JAA, JAR, CAA, PPL - my brain is just saying BLX to me

[dublinpilot]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

While all in their FAQ may be correct, you would have to wonder why they don't just come out and say that they are training for a FAA-PPL, and stop trying to confuse their customers with "JAA compliant PPL".

Two thought come to mind.

1. If you have an FAA PPL, you can not necessarily rent a European registered aircraft an fly it out of that country, as you could with a JAA PPL. For example, if you had access to an Irish registered aircraft, you could not fly it outside Ireland on your FAA PPL, without getting specific permissions. Some other JAA countries may allow you take their aircraft abroad on an FAA PPL, such as the UK does. This probably isn't such a big deal, as if you're based in the UK, you'll probably always be flying UK registered aircraft. Should you happen to be in Ireland, or France, or any other JAA country, and want to rent an aircraft there, you're unlikely to want to fly it out of that country. And you should be fine flying it with that country.

2. The second thing that comes to mind is the IMC rating. For a PPL flying in the UK, an IMC is a very valuable thing to be able to get. I really wish the IAA would introduce something similar here! As far as I know you can't get an IMC rating with an FAA PPL. You can of course do an FAA instrument rating, and if you fly an American registered aircraft in the UK, you will have instrument privileges. If you have a FAA Instrument Rating, I understand you can get an IMC for some paperwork, but I'm assuming you would need to have a UK issued PPL to attach it to. Someone else can better advise you on that.

Just some food for though. The site seems to give you all the pro, I just wanted to highlight the cons that I see

dp

[englishal]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Bearing in mind that you can fly in the UK under Day VFR conditions using an FAA PPL, my recommendation would be (if you really must go to the USA) to train for the plain vanilla FAA PPL, then build up to 100 hours in the US or UK before converting to a JAR-FCL PPL(A).

Ah ha, that old chestnut. There is no "Day" restriction on an FAA ticket.

And ask yourself why any school would 'voluntarily' stop JAR-FCL PPL training in the US...............

Cost. The CAA charges 000's if not 10's of 000's to "inspect" these schools and certify them, plus a jolly for the inspector who has to be flown to the USA (business class no doubt), put up in a hotel, and all expenses paid. So frankly I don't blame them.

Although I don't agree with the term "JAR Complient PPL" as it is a little misleading, what these schools do is offer the FAA PPL, but also the UK exams and RT exam are taken as well. So you are perfectly legal to fly in the UK, and it is a sinch to convert to a "full" PPL once you have the FAA PPL.

Although schools like these are not entitled to carry out an initial JAA PPL skills test by virtue of not being certified, they can carry out licence conversions. So, you guessed it, when you have the FAA PPL + exams, you could in theory do another flight test with the resident UK examiner, and you walk away with (well 2 months later) a full blown JAA PPL.

I have no connection by the way, though I have talked with these people about this subject, and to be honest it does seem a cost effective way of getting a ticket.

[leonbrumsack]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Well, I have emailed the flying school who kindly sent me various PDF brochures and the following explanation:

Both Licenses are accepted and thee is no conversion needed on return. The JAR Compliant PPL is a FAA PPL with UK aviation law and RT procedures ground school and knowledge test. The JAA PPL is a PPL issued from the CAA. The only difference is that the JAR Compliant PPL is easy to maintain.

So - would going down the 'JAR Compliant Route' (AKA FAA PPL + extras) be a bad move? I do like the fact that it works out cheaper, being a poor student!

[englishal]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

Swings and roundabouts. Once you have the FAA ticket, you essentially can't loose it. With a JAA ticket, you must keep it up, or do a test every few years.

You cannot add national ratings to an FAA ticket in the UK, so no chance of an IMC. You can of course get an FAA IR and fly an N reg plane in IMC though.

You can fly at night on an FAA ticket by default - even in the UK.

FAA ratings (like ME) can be used in the UK no problem, even on G reg aircraft.

You can always convert to a full JAA PPL later on if you wanted.

[BEagle]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

"The JAR Compliant PPL is a FAA PPL with UK aviation law and RT procedures ground school and knowledge test."

That means you have a FAA PPL only. However, when you finally achieve 100 hours total time, you will also have covered some of the conversion requirements towards the JAR-FCL PPL. You will still need to take the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test, however, as well as the Human Performance exam which the flying school seems to have forgotten about.

I cannot find any reference to the validity period of the Air Law, Human Perfomrnace and Communications (PPL) exams in this context; normally you have to pass them all within an 18 month period and they will then be valid for 2 years for licence application.

So, if you think that you'll achieve 100 hours fairly quickly, then it might be worth paying the extra to do the FRTOL training and Air Law exams with that school, before (presumably) finding a JAR-FCL approved Flight Examiner to conduct your JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test. And guess what, there happens to be one at that school....

To me it looks like a simple business opportunity - particularly for the Examiner, of course. Get a JAA Class 2 medical, then go to the US for a FAA PPL course. Then do the Air Law, Human Performance, Communications (PPL) and RT practical. Then top up to 100 hours, before taking the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test. In addition to paying for the FAA PPL, you would thus also be paying for:

1. 3 JAR-FCL PPL exams.
2. The FRTOL practical test.
3. Additional flight time to achieve 100 hours on aeroplanes.
4. The JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test

If you wish to 'convert' with less than 100 hours, the difference is that you will additionally need both to take the other 4 JAR-FCL PPL exams and to meet the relevant JAR-FCL 1.125(b) experience requirements. These are:

'(b) Flight instruction. An applicant for a PPL(A) shall have completed on aeroplanes, having a certificate of airworthiness issued or accepted by a JAA Member State, at least 25 hours dual instruction and at least 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least five hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least one cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made. When the applicant has been credited for pilot-in-command flight time on other aircraft in accordance with JAR–FCL 1.120, the requirement for dual instruction on aeroplanes may be reduced to not less than 20 hours.'

If I were you, I would ask the flying school (and the CAA) to confirm whether the JAR-FCL 1.125(b) requirements can be carried out at the school to which you refer. If not, then you'll need obviously 100 hours on aeroplanes before you can convert.

But wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler just to do the FAA PPL in the US, then build up your hours wherever before doing the 3 exams, RT practical and JAR-FCL PPL(A)Skill Test when you're back in the UK?

[2Donkeys]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

All a bit silly really isn't it. The School concerned is using confusing language to market its product and the frequency with which this question arises demonstrates the confusion created.

With an FAA PPL and an FAA Medical, you are fully entitled to fly G-reg aircraft all over the world thanks to the ANO rendering all ICAO PPLs valid.

Why would you bother going through the subsequent rigmarole of getting a JAA licence unless you had a particular need to add later JAA ratings to it? And if that is the case, then why not simply go to a JAA school (in the UK or US) and get your JAA licence directly.

[Keygrip]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

<<Once you have the FAA ticket, you essentially can't loose it. With a JAA ticket, you must keep it up, or do a test every few years.>>

JAA requires a test every two years - unless you have the relevant currency experience. FAA requires a test every two years no matter how much experience you have. Tell me again why you think it's easier to maintain an FAA licence?

[BEagle]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

JAA licences now have to be re-issued every 5 years, whereas the old UK PPls were for life. All that is needed for that process is a valid JAA medical and Type or Class Rating - and a cheque to the CAA, of course. Currently, for a PPL, that's £63

[englishal]

Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?

FAA requires a test every two years no matter how much experience you have. Tell me again why you think it's easier to maintain an FAA licence?

Ok,

The FAA does not require a test at all. Once you have passed the PPL check ride, you never need to fly with an examiner again, unless the FAA dictates you need to for some reason. The FAA requires a BFR every 2 years more or less, and that is all. A BFR is roughly translated to an hours ground school, and a 1 hour flight with an instructor. You need not have logged any time at all in the previous 2 years, if you were a natural.In fact, you need not fly for 10 years, then turn up, do a bit of practice, do the BFR and off you go.

If you maintain currency under JAR then you also do not need to fly with an examiner either but if you don't get that piece of paper signed by an examiner by the due date, thats it, you now require a "skills test". Orf if you don't meet the currency requirements.

Regarding ME currency - the same BFR will maintain your ME rating. It does not need to be tested annually, you do not need to complete any route sectors etc.

I agree the wording of "JAR Complient" is misleading in order to drum up business and I don't agree with it.