JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Cheers for the feedback, all. Will have to do some thinking. I guess if I decide to go for it (a PPL) a 'JAR Compliant'/FAA one would probably do me fine.
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Originally Posted by englishal
You can fly at night on an FAA ticket by default - even in the UK.
Does the FARs not require a pilot to hold a vadid IR ticket before flying IFR?
Unless one restricts onself to circuits and bumps within a zone where ATC give you Special VFR, then US PPL holders without an IR can not fly enroute in the UK at night.
As for "JAR Compliant PPL". Only licenses with "Issued oin accordance with JAR-FCL" or words to that effect are JAR compliant. Next thing this type of school will be doing is advertising ICAO compliant NPPL Microlight Licenses. After all if you get a microlight licence and do lots of extra training, exams and tests, one can get an ICAO PPL!
Regards,
DFC
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
"Unless one restricts onself to circuits and bumps within a zone where ATC give you Special VFR, then US PPL holders without an IR can not fly enroute in the UK at night."
More fiction, DFC.
More fiction, DFC.
Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Exercising the privileges of a Non-UK
Licence in UK registered aircraft
Article 26, of the ANO 2005, states that a pilot must
hold an appropriate licence granted either by the CAA
or by a foreign authority and rendered valid under the
ANO to fly a UK registered aircraft.
A JAA licence is deemed to be a licence rendered valid
under the ANO unless the CAA in the particular case
gives direction to the contrary. A JAA licence is a
licence issued in accordance with licensing and
medical requirements of JAR-FCL by a full JAA
Member State that has been recommended for mutual
recognition by Central JAA (JAA Headquarters).
A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State
(including a JAA State that has not yet been
recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed
to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a
UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and
medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of
the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the
particular case give direction to the contrary.
However, the ANO2005 Article 26 (4) (a) states that
the holder of such a licence cannot:
1) act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft
flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial
work or on any flight in respect of which he
receives remuneration for his services as a
member of the flight crew; or
2) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as a pilot of
any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in
circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction
in flying.
Licence in UK registered aircraft
Article 26, of the ANO 2005, states that a pilot must
hold an appropriate licence granted either by the CAA
or by a foreign authority and rendered valid under the
ANO to fly a UK registered aircraft.
A JAA licence is deemed to be a licence rendered valid
under the ANO unless the CAA in the particular case
gives direction to the contrary. A JAA licence is a
licence issued in accordance with licensing and
medical requirements of JAR-FCL by a full JAA
Member State that has been recommended for mutual
recognition by Central JAA (JAA Headquarters).
A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State
(including a JAA State that has not yet been
recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed
to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a
UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and
medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of
the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the
particular case give direction to the contrary.
However, the ANO2005 Article 26 (4) (a) states that
the holder of such a licence cannot:
1) act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft
flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial
work or on any flight in respect of which he
receives remuneration for his services as a
member of the flight crew; or
2) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as a pilot of
any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in
circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction
in flying.
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
IO540,
Here is a small but relevant part of BEagles quote;
A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State
(including a JAA State that has not yet been
recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed
to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a
UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and
medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of
the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the
particular case give direction to the contrary.
and for FAA licences, here are the US requirements for holding an IR quoted from 61.3
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
So the CAA say FAA licence holders must comply with FAA requirements and the FAA says you need an IR to fly IFR or when the weather is less than VMC so Special VFR in less than VMC.
Basically, while the CAA rules say you can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, the FAA who issue a licence say you will not. One must comply with the most restrictive requirement.
Same as France allowing VFR over an overcast but the UK CAA not allowing UK PPLs with no IMC or IR to fly out of sight of the surface whenever they exercise the licence.
Regards,
DFC
Here is a small but relevant part of BEagles quote;
A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State
(including a JAA State that has not yet been
recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed
to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a
UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and
medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of
the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the
particular case give direction to the contrary.
and for FAA licences, here are the US requirements for holding an IR quoted from 61.3
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
So the CAA say FAA licence holders must comply with FAA requirements and the FAA says you need an IR to fly IFR or when the weather is less than VMC so Special VFR in less than VMC.
Basically, while the CAA rules say you can fly IFR outside controlled airspace, the FAA who issue a licence say you will not. One must comply with the most restrictive requirement.
Same as France allowing VFR over an overcast but the UK CAA not allowing UK PPLs with no IMC or IR to fly out of sight of the surface whenever they exercise the licence.
Regards,
DFC
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Interesting point. My FAA PPL is valid at night (they almost all are). Under UK law, I need no IR or IMC rating, but a night qualification, to fly at night. So can I fly at night on my FAA PPL with its inbuilt night qualification?
Or do I need an FAA IR, too?
Can I confuse you with SVFR?
Or do I need an FAA IR, too?
Can I confuse you with SVFR?
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
I believe you can fly at night, as you FAA ticket includes night privileges, something that the JAA or EASA or whoever should include (less money making opportunities then of course).
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
A basic FAA PPL holder is entitled to fly Night VFR.
The FAA require FAA licence holders to hold an IR before flying under IFR (no mention of weather or time of day) or in weather that is less than VMC.
My understanding of that is that since the UK requires all night flights outside a control zone to be IFR, and the FAA require an IR for IFR flight a basic VFR only FAA pilot can not fly visually at night outside a control zone.
As for Special VFR. Well the FAA again require an IR for flights in weather less than VMC. So provided that the basic VMC requirements are complied with, a FAA PPL holder could accept a special VFR clearance. This would only make a Special VFR request necessary for a FAA PPL at night in a zone or in a class A zone at any time.
The FAA are not unique in thie regard. Many European countries require any flight under IFR regardless of weather to be done by the holder of an IR.
Regards,
DFC
The FAA require FAA licence holders to hold an IR before flying under IFR (no mention of weather or time of day) or in weather that is less than VMC.
My understanding of that is that since the UK requires all night flights outside a control zone to be IFR, and the FAA require an IR for IFR flight a basic VFR only FAA pilot can not fly visually at night outside a control zone.
As for Special VFR. Well the FAA again require an IR for flights in weather less than VMC. So provided that the basic VMC requirements are complied with, a FAA PPL holder could accept a special VFR clearance. This would only make a Special VFR request necessary for a FAA PPL at night in a zone or in a class A zone at any time.
The FAA are not unique in thie regard. Many European countries require any flight under IFR regardless of weather to be done by the holder of an IR.
Regards,
DFC
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
This one has been done to death here before.
Superficially, all of the following
a) FAA PPL holder, G-reg, UK airspace
b) FAA PPL holder, N-reg, UK airspace
c) JAA PPL holder, N-reg, UK airspace
are illegal at night.
However, if one contacts the FAA (as I have done) it is quickly established that b) and c) are OK. And a) is probably OK too, but I don't have time now to dig through the stuff. If the "night = IFR" stuff was interpreted in the totally anally retentive manner, lots of non IFR certified aeroplanes would not fly at night, etc, etc.
There is a distinction in the FARs between an aircraft flying IFR requiring a pilot with an IR, and the FAA-licensed pilot flying IFR requiring an IR. Again, no time to look at it now.
Superficially, all of the following
a) FAA PPL holder, G-reg, UK airspace
b) FAA PPL holder, N-reg, UK airspace
c) JAA PPL holder, N-reg, UK airspace
are illegal at night.
However, if one contacts the FAA (as I have done) it is quickly established that b) and c) are OK. And a) is probably OK too, but I don't have time now to dig through the stuff. If the "night = IFR" stuff was interpreted in the totally anally retentive manner, lots of non IFR certified aeroplanes would not fly at night, etc, etc.
There is a distinction in the FARs between an aircraft flying IFR requiring a pilot with an IR, and the FAA-licensed pilot flying IFR requiring an IR. Again, no time to look at it now.
Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
"However, if one contacts the FAA (as I have done) it is quickly established that b) and c) are OK."
And the CAA's view was?
Personally I agree with DFC's interpretation. Still, perhaps it won't be long before all imported UK-based non-CAT aircraft will only be permitted to fly on a non-UK registration for a limited period of time? Clarification of restrictions applicable to non-JAA licensed aircrew flying in JAA airspace would not go amiss, however.
And the CAA's view was?
Personally I agree with DFC's interpretation. Still, perhaps it won't be long before all imported UK-based non-CAT aircraft will only be permitted to fly on a non-UK registration for a limited period of time? Clarification of restrictions applicable to non-JAA licensed aircrew flying in JAA airspace would not go amiss, however.
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Beagle
That one has been done to death, too. I know Pprune runs on a fast server nowadays; just as well
An example of case c) might be flying an N-reg on a UK PPL with the IMC Rating, and asking the CAA if the license+rating privileges work on an N-reg. I did this, and their reply was that the IMC Rating is not restricted to any particular reg, and that it is for the FAA to decide. So I wrote to the FAA and they said it's equivalent to their IR (implicitly, this is within the limits which the ANO puts on the IMCR). The FARs also enable foreign license privileges to apply. People may disagree but one can't really get much beyond asking and getting an official reply.
Case b) concerns the CAA even less.
Case a) is much more CAA territory. There just happens to be an awful lot of "common practice" stuff. Night flight in the UK, which is supposedly IFR, is actually treated as VFR. You can night depart from a Class D field in the UK and ask for a VFR departure (or just a "departure") and IME they won't bat an eyelid. I've done it in error myself. The departure you get is a VFR one (i.e. take off and bye, see you again) not an IFR departure with the extra protection that involves. You could probably file a VFR flight plan during official night and the mistake is unlikely to be spotted. And take a plain PPL with the night qual - how much IFR navigation training does he get? Practically zilch. I also never knew I was supposed to fly under some sort of IFR rules at night, and I wonder if the instructor knew it. You just fly a hopeful heading, looking for clusters of street lights and hope to start/stop the stopwatch at the right time (which of course doesn't really work at night, you'd use a GPS, but that's another story).
If there was a whole load of prosecutions in this area (and there certainly could be, if anybody cared, just in the plain UK G-reg scene) then we might have something concrete to talk about.
That one has been done to death, too. I know Pprune runs on a fast server nowadays; just as well
An example of case c) might be flying an N-reg on a UK PPL with the IMC Rating, and asking the CAA if the license+rating privileges work on an N-reg. I did this, and their reply was that the IMC Rating is not restricted to any particular reg, and that it is for the FAA to decide. So I wrote to the FAA and they said it's equivalent to their IR (implicitly, this is within the limits which the ANO puts on the IMCR). The FARs also enable foreign license privileges to apply. People may disagree but one can't really get much beyond asking and getting an official reply.
Case b) concerns the CAA even less.
Case a) is much more CAA territory. There just happens to be an awful lot of "common practice" stuff. Night flight in the UK, which is supposedly IFR, is actually treated as VFR. You can night depart from a Class D field in the UK and ask for a VFR departure (or just a "departure") and IME they won't bat an eyelid. I've done it in error myself. The departure you get is a VFR one (i.e. take off and bye, see you again) not an IFR departure with the extra protection that involves. You could probably file a VFR flight plan during official night and the mistake is unlikely to be spotted. And take a plain PPL with the night qual - how much IFR navigation training does he get? Practically zilch. I also never knew I was supposed to fly under some sort of IFR rules at night, and I wonder if the instructor knew it. You just fly a hopeful heading, looking for clusters of street lights and hope to start/stop the stopwatch at the right time (which of course doesn't really work at night, you'd use a GPS, but that's another story).
If there was a whole load of prosecutions in this area (and there certainly could be, if anybody cared, just in the plain UK G-reg scene) then we might have something concrete to talk about.
Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
All 3 cases require the CAA's consideration far more than the FAA's. Because they all refer to operation within UK airspace.
Perhaps when EASA comes along, all this nonsense of 'interpretation' rather than clear regulation will be cleared up.
How many US-registered cars are there in the UK driven by UK residents who don't have UK driving licences? So why should there be US-registered aircraft flown by UK residents who don't have UK (or JAR-FCL) pilots licences?
Perhaps when EASA comes along, all this nonsense of 'interpretation' rather than clear regulation will be cleared up.
How many US-registered cars are there in the UK driven by UK residents who don't have UK driving licences? So why should there be US-registered aircraft flown by UK residents who don't have UK (or JAR-FCL) pilots licences?
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Because the UK is allegedly one of those countries where legal residents are free to go about their lawful business without being hassled by the Gov'mint. If you cannot demonstrate an overwhelming safety based case why decent people shouldn't be able to spend their own money in the way they see fit then you should leave them alone.
(Doubt the FAA care about whether it's IFR at night in the UK, it's not in the US when VMC and that's what counts to them, IMO)
(Doubt the FAA care about whether it's IFR at night in the UK, it's not in the US when VMC and that's what counts to them, IMO)
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Someone posted on the flyer web site about this, and it appears you can indeed fly at night on an FAA ticket. I just can't be bothered to find it ot the reasons behind it. Anyway I can, and I have no JAA NQ, because I hold an FAA IR and AM allowed to fly at night and IAW IFR....
In fact, my mate is picking me up in his N reg, and we're going to fly the good old European airways, without holding a JAA IR between us. We may even do it at night, just because we can......
In fact, my mate is picking me up in his N reg, and we're going to fly the good old European airways, without holding a JAA IR between us. We may even do it at night, just because we can......
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Beagle
You are forgetting a small detail: ICAO.
There is NO safety issue with foreign reg planes operating in UK airspace. Lots of people have looked, looked hard because it would suit their agendas, and none was found. I sincerely hope that you are not one of those.
Cars don't come into it. Why don't bikes pay road tax? They use the same road, and they have wheels. Why don't you pay road tax when crossing a road with a pram? It has 4 wheels, so should pay the same road tax as a car.
You actually can drive a foreign reg car in the UK, indefinitely. Just change it every few months
You are forgetting a small detail: ICAO.
There is NO safety issue with foreign reg planes operating in UK airspace. Lots of people have looked, looked hard because it would suit their agendas, and none was found. I sincerely hope that you are not one of those.
Cars don't come into it. Why don't bikes pay road tax? They use the same road, and they have wheels. Why don't you pay road tax when crossing a road with a pram? It has 4 wheels, so should pay the same road tax as a car.
You actually can drive a foreign reg car in the UK, indefinitely. Just change it every few months
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
IO540,
You are correct. ICAO does come into the argument. If everyone did everything according to ICAO we would not be having this debate because the system could be consistent and regardless of country of registration, country of operation or country of licence issue the rules would be the same. That unfortunately is not the case but it sounds very like what EASA is trying to acheive.
The fact that questions like these arrise and while we all can quote the rule books, no one including the CAA or the FAA can it seems put in writing exactly what the real situation is. While that and oher similar situations do not have any real effect on the safe, careful and competent pilot, it can leave a hole open for the unscrupulous pilot, operation or school to do things which can lead to dangerous situation or general confusion.
It all comes down to adequate supervision (other wise known as money!). If the FAA are happy to state that they at their own expense will provide adequate supervision of N reg operators based in Europe and FAA pilots in Europe then everyone is happy. If they are not then it will fall on the CAA to provide the supervision. That is going to cost money. Why should European operators pay more so that American Operators can continue to operate despite the FAA washing it's hands of them?
When a question arrises about what an FAA licence holder can do, that question should be addressed to the FAA and the FAA after making whatever checks it needs to do can tell the FAA licence holder what to do. That is their responsibility alone because it is an FAA licence. FAA licence holders asking the CAA what they can do with an FAA licence is simply increasing the costs of the CAA which are paid by G reg/UK licence holders and operators.
Regards,
DFC
You are correct. ICAO does come into the argument. If everyone did everything according to ICAO we would not be having this debate because the system could be consistent and regardless of country of registration, country of operation or country of licence issue the rules would be the same. That unfortunately is not the case but it sounds very like what EASA is trying to acheive.
The fact that questions like these arrise and while we all can quote the rule books, no one including the CAA or the FAA can it seems put in writing exactly what the real situation is. While that and oher similar situations do not have any real effect on the safe, careful and competent pilot, it can leave a hole open for the unscrupulous pilot, operation or school to do things which can lead to dangerous situation or general confusion.
It all comes down to adequate supervision (other wise known as money!). If the FAA are happy to state that they at their own expense will provide adequate supervision of N reg operators based in Europe and FAA pilots in Europe then everyone is happy. If they are not then it will fall on the CAA to provide the supervision. That is going to cost money. Why should European operators pay more so that American Operators can continue to operate despite the FAA washing it's hands of them?
When a question arrises about what an FAA licence holder can do, that question should be addressed to the FAA and the FAA after making whatever checks it needs to do can tell the FAA licence holder what to do. That is their responsibility alone because it is an FAA licence. FAA licence holders asking the CAA what they can do with an FAA licence is simply increasing the costs of the CAA which are paid by G reg/UK licence holders and operators.
Regards,
DFC
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
DFC
"can leave a hole open for the unscrupulous pilot"
Did you draft the DfT consultation document by any chance?
Basically, it said "we have no evidence of any problems, we have no evidence of any loss of safety, we see a theoretical problem due to the lower oversight, so we propose to ban it just in case this became a problem". A really good way to form govt policy...
There are far far more poorly maintained planes on G than there are on N. Just pop along to your local flying school for a pleasure flight (called a "trial lesson" due to another quirk in the regs, or a "loophole" if somebody wants to grind an axe) and see what piece of wreckage, maintained by a JAR145 company of course, you go up in.
If I was based on a farm strip, and flying between farm strips (i.e. generally avoiding plane spotters) I could fly a completely fictitious G-reg (the number obviously identical to a real one, in case anyone checks it on G-INFO), running on petrol out of the farm tank, and with oil changes every year. Oversight??? People don't do this because they value their life.
The oversight argument doesn't wash at all.
"can leave a hole open for the unscrupulous pilot"
Did you draft the DfT consultation document by any chance?
Basically, it said "we have no evidence of any problems, we have no evidence of any loss of safety, we see a theoretical problem due to the lower oversight, so we propose to ban it just in case this became a problem". A really good way to form govt policy...
There are far far more poorly maintained planes on G than there are on N. Just pop along to your local flying school for a pleasure flight (called a "trial lesson" due to another quirk in the regs, or a "loophole" if somebody wants to grind an axe) and see what piece of wreckage, maintained by a JAR145 company of course, you go up in.
If I was based on a farm strip, and flying between farm strips (i.e. generally avoiding plane spotters) I could fly a completely fictitious G-reg (the number obviously identical to a real one, in case anyone checks it on G-INFO), running on petrol out of the farm tank, and with oil changes every year. Oversight??? People don't do this because they value their life.
The oversight argument doesn't wash at all.
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
I asked a similar last Oct http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194158wondering if my Irish issued JAA PPL would allow me to fly at night in the UK, given that I (or anyone else) was not allowed fly an Irish registered aircraft under IFR, unless they held an instrument rating, according to Irish Regulations.
No one was able to quote anything that made me think that I would be allowed fly at night in the UK, in an Irish registered aircraft.
Interestingly, I sent the CAA an email (as someone suggested I should do), and the only reply I got, was an email acknowledging my query.
On the face of it, it seems a similar enough position to the FAA licence holder + N reg aircraft, in the UK at night (although I know very little about the FARs).
While I'm sure that no one could care less, so long as there was no incident, I'm not so sure people wouldn't mind, if there was some sort of incident.
dp
No one was able to quote anything that made me think that I would be allowed fly at night in the UK, in an Irish registered aircraft.
Interestingly, I sent the CAA an email (as someone suggested I should do), and the only reply I got, was an email acknowledging my query.
On the face of it, it seems a similar enough position to the FAA licence holder + N reg aircraft, in the UK at night (although I know very little about the FARs).
While I'm sure that no one could care less, so long as there was no incident, I'm not so sure people wouldn't mind, if there was some sort of incident.
dp
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Re: JAR Compliant PPL vs JAA PPL - Difference?
Originally Posted by DFC
It all comes down to adequate supervision (other wise known as money!). If the FAA are happy to state that they at their own expense will provide adequate supervision of N reg operators based in Europe and FAA pilots in Europe then everyone is happy.
Ask somebody who has to get his N-reg through an annual given by a mechanic who has his own ticket to consider, or get through a BFR given by a CFI who also has his ticket to protect. That's at the pilot's expense, not the FAA's. The FAA provides the framework for more than adequate supervision. Sure you can break the law but that's possible in CAA-lland as well. I also would suspect you are more likely to be ramp checked by the authorities in Europe if flying an N-reg than a G-reg, but that's a guess.
