D129 & Kamikaze Pilots

[Miserlou]

I have operated the jump aircraft at Weston and was most impressed by the operation on all sides, gliders, RAFSPA, military and the brize controllers. And what a model this could be if the military opened all of their playgrounds at the weekends.
It is to be remembered that this is RAF Weston on the Green!

So if some lazy, negligent, stupid, ignorant (tick as applicable) pilot wants to go trolleying through the Danger Area, then be prepared to lose the airspace.

It is nothing but poor airmanship to be busting through an area like Weston.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So if some lazy, negligent, stupid, ignorant (tick as applicable) pilot wants to go trolleying through the Danger Area

Sorry, but this is bollocks. There's nothing lazy or ignorant about looking up the danger area in the AIP, finding out that it has a DAAIS, calling up the DAAIS, being told that the DA in inactive, then flying through it. That is perfectly normal practice and is what the DAAIS is there for.

There might, as several people have suggested, be something ignorant about failing to realise that the co-located danger area and gliding site have nothing to do with each other, so that an inactive danger area does not necessarily actually imply an inactive gliding site.

But that's different. If there were no co-located gliding site to cause confusion it would be perfectly in order to fly right through the middle of the danger area after being told by the correct authority that it was inactive.

[Send Clowns]

Gertrude

I cannot see any ATSU telling you you were allowed through Weston without reminding you that it is a damned stupid thing to do at below 2,500 ft aal, as there might be civilian gliding. My housemate is a former gliding instructor, from a certain school near a popular GA airport. They had a lot of problems of idiots blundering over their launching area, legally but with no regard at all for good airmanship!

Go Smoke

Yeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeah! would love to go gliding!

[Miserlou]

Please Gertrude,

!. Lazy. Pilot couldn't be bothered to allow a safe margin around the area or couldn't be bothered to check route.

2. Negligent. Didn't notice the symbols on the chart or spot the gliders on the field. (And it's not a little, hard to find place but a big three runway triangle.)

3. Stupid. Knew it was there and busted straight through anyway.

4. Ignorant. Didn't know it was there for whatever reason. Or didn't know of the intensity of the various activities.

You will find that any excuse you can come up with will fit into one of those categories.

The correct authority would never not advise a transitting pilot of the intense activity. Not knowing (ignorance) that there are several activities in progress does not stop you looking out the window. The field does make a good waypoint but having found it and seeing there are gliders unpacked, it would be a good idea to avoid overflying it. That's just daft.

Let's face it, Weston is not the biggest danger area in the world and isn't difficult to avoid.

The work invovled in finding out whether it is active or not is much greater than that of just not flying through it.

[dublinpilot]

Miserlou,

Go Smoke told us that there are an average of 2 aircraft a day that fly through this danger area.

Now we can either accept that this will continue for ever and ever, because pilots will always be lazy, ignorant, stupid and negligent and people involved at WOG can come on here and have their rant and feel better, or alternatively they can try to understand why it is happening and do something to reduce the chances of it happening again.

Some of us have attempted to give reasons for why it might happen. Should you choose to ignore that, you can continue with your own rant, but WOG will continue to have it's 2 aircraft a day fly though.

Not much achieved there then.

It would be so much better if something could be learnt from this instead.

dp

[GroundBound]

Dublin

So nice to see a well reasoned and politley explained argument.



GB

[Miserlou]

There seems to be plenty of ifs and buts from people who obviously don't know Weston and Brize. On the other hand, the people who DO have experience of the area are being ignored or put down.

It would seem that laziness, negligence, stupidity or ignorance are acceptable traits in a pilot; I disagree.

AOPA, mentioned in last month's Pilot magazine, appear also to be of the same mind in respect of airspace infringements (a similar case to this debate).
Airmanship Neglected.

GoSmoke's rant is perfectly valid because people appear not to be aware of what is happening outside of the aircraft. As I said Weston is not a hard to find place.

DP, Gertruse, Groundbound,
If you can come up with something constructive, please do so; I haven't seen anything thus far. Please don't accept poor airmanship as an acceptable excuse.

[dublinpilot]

Miserlou wrote:

DP, Gertruse, Groundbound,
If you can come up with something constructive, please do so; I haven't seen anything thus far. Please don't accept poor airmanship as an acceptable excuse.

Dublinpilot previously wrote:

I still think that asking the CAA to amend the wording on note one on the 500k chart so that is indicated that gilding/parachuting took place even when the "Danger Activity" was not taking place, would be helpful to your cause.

[Go Smoke]

I have to agree with Miserlou on this.
It's about decent airmanship at the end of the day.
Sure, we all make mistakes - usually we realise them and learn from them - however, I'm not at all sure that the pilots in question probably even realised their potentially fatal error.

Now we can either accept that this will continue for ever and ever, because pilots will always be lazy, ignorant, stupid and negligent and people involved at WOG can come on here and have their rant and feel better, or alternatively they can try to understand why it is happening and do something to reduce the chances of it happening again.

The gist of a lot of the comments seems to be along the lines of "So what are you going to do about it then Go Smoke"

Well, I'm not all together sure that I should be personally doing anything about it - though it's always good to be proactive.

One aspect that people don't seem to like is the reporting of infringing aircrafts registration numbers.
Why?
If the pilot has, for whatever reason, navigated his aircraft into a dangerous situation, jeopardising his and others lives, then surely it can only help if he is informed of such and has a chance to perhaps realise his mistake and to learn from it.

Now, I could potentially visit/contact every flying club in the country and talk about D129, but I have a life, family, job and flying to get on with.
All the information that a safe and responsible pilot needs to recognise, understand and avoid D129 is contained on his aeronautical chart.
Surely this is enough?

Local clubs all pretty much seem to be aware of D129 and the dangers it poses so I'm not sure a local crusade will do much.

Whichever way I look at this it just comes back to a basic issue of good airmanship.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Keeping your brain active should stop people from flying into places they shouldn't be, but if this is a significant problem, then the sensible thing would be to find the root cause of why it is happening and then address this. Not to just whinge about how crap everyone else is. I think Dublinpilot has made some very valid points.

You mention you have a life so can't be bothered to do anything about it since you have better things to do. So if someone blunders into a stick or launching glider, you'll have done everything possible will you? How much effort does it take to start a dialogue with the CAA or send a letter to ALL clubs. Maybe Brize could track every infraction and then a 'chat' could take place with the offending muppet. The key is to find out who's doing it and why it's happening, when you've done that and people continue to be idiots, then you can whinge to your hearts content.

If the info contained on the chart was enough, then you wouldn't have this problem would you?

There is nothing wrong with getting reg. no's (if done safely from a distance) and maybe reporting them, but remember without corroberating evidence there is little the CAA can do. I for one would feel very uncomfortable about prosecutions going ahead on the say so of one person. It certainly wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

[Miserlou]

DP,
That suggestion IS relevant but only as far as Weston is concerned and only on paper. The explanation I received for this is that where a gliding site or para centre may or may not be operating, they may still be overflown with varying degrees of risk. The operations at Weston are such that the risk is higher and therefore the danger area has been established to further discourage intrusion. To be made aware of the type of traffic one is likely to encounter is the only relevant reason for the other (lesser) symbols to be displayed. Not having the chart at hand I cannot be sure but, if memory serves, I believe there is a parachute symbol just to the east of the area, misplaced to allow for written information. Awaiting correction or confirmation of that.

Though my comments are of a more general nature, I find it difficult to believe that any pilot who has gone to the trouble of trying to ascertain whether there are actually any military ops in progress, wouldn't also talk to Brize Norton and be advised of the other activity.

That said, it is still the responsibility of the pilot to avoid things which aren't, or aren't properly, marked on a chart. There is such general disregard for other gliding and para sites around the country that I am firmly of the opinion, as AOPA says,"...pilots have missed out on the basics of good airmanship...".

Getting a registration is a good start to getting at the offenders. Whilst a single witness will not stand in the courts, it should provoke a letter which may just be the wake-up call which said offender needs. At least one can make contact informally.

[Go Smoke]

Keeping your brain active should stop people from flying into places they shouldn't be, but if this is a significant problem, then the sensible thing would be to find the root cause of why it is happening and then address this. Not to just whinge about how crap everyone else is. I think Dublinpilot has made some very valid points.

Erm.......you seem to be speaking in a very emotive fashion.
Firstly, I'm not whinging. Secondly, I'm not saying how crap everyone else is.

You mention you have a life so can't be bothered to do anything about it since you have better things to do. So if someone blunders into a stick or launching glider, you'll have done everything possible will you? How much effort does it take to start a dialogue with the CAA or send a letter to ALL clubs.

So, by default, if a negligent, stupid, lazy or indifferent pilot blunders into the zone and causes an accident then that would be my fault?

Maybe Brize could track every infraction and then a 'chat' could take place with the offending muppet. The key is to find out who's doing it and why it's happening, when you've done that and people continue to be idiots, then you can whinge to your hearts content.

See point one above, I'm not whinging.
I am pointing out what I consider to be a handful of pilots who seem to be displaying a jaw droppingly cavalier attitude towards D129.

If the info contained on the chart was enough, then you wouldn't have this problem would you?

Wouldn't we?
The information displayed on the chart all seems fairly unambiguous to me.
I would proffer an alternative view. With some pilots perhaps over relying on a gps system there may be an increased danger of complacency towards the fundamentals of map reading and as a consequence an increased risk of infringements.

There is nothing wrong with getting reg. no's (if done safely from a distance) and maybe reporting them, but remember without corroberating evidence there is little the CAA can do.

Thank you - it seems this is no longer considered beyond the pale.

I for one would feel very uncomfortable about prosecutions going ahead on the say so of one person. It certainly wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

It's very unlikely that a prosecution would go ahead if it wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Therefore, if a prosecution were to go ahead, this would assume sufficient information would it not?

[Say again s l o w l y]

It wouldn't be one persons fault, but as we all know, accidents rarely have a single cause. Rather they are a combination of factors.

In the case of Weston, if I had heard that someone had flown through the middle of a glider launch and had walloped into someone else, then I would be thinking "what an idiot, putting themselves and others at danger." BUT if I later heard that this was a problem that had been happening on a regular basis, but this was the first accident that had happened, then it would seem sensible to start questioning other factors ontop of the stupidity of one individual.

As someone far smarter than I said once "safety is no accident" and we ALL have a responsibility to try and minimise any potential problems.

So in a way, if an accident does occur because of an issue you've highlighted, but done nothing about, then yes you do have to take some responsibility.

One last thing, the vast majority of airborne GPS recievers don't just take you along a line with no thought to what's around. All that I've used (pretty much all of the available makes) tell you what airspace and whether there are restricted areas or danger areas around you, so in theory, if you are following the GPS only and not looking out of the window, it should show you and usually tell you when you are close to somewhere like D129, so I don't think your problem lies with over reliance on GPS, rather the opposite in fact.
If you use a something like a colour moving map display, then you would be amazed by the amount of information available to you, including the location of danger areas.

One point about whinging. if you are grumping on about someone's actions, but not prepared to do anything about it, then you are whinging. If however you intend to try and resolve the situation somehow, then you are passing on information and not being a whinge bag!

[Go Smoke]

One last thing, the vast majority of airborne GPS recievers don't just take you along a line with no thought to what's around. All that I've used (pretty much all of the available makes) tell you what airspace and whether there are restricted areas or danger areas around you, so in theory, if you are following the GPS only and not looking out of the window, it should show you and usually tell you when you are close to somewhere like D129, so I don't think your problem lies with over reliance on GPS, rather the opposite in fact.
If you use a something like a colour moving map display, then you would be amazed by the amount of information available to you, including the location of danger areas.

I do use a colour moving map display when flying and am very familiar with current gps systems.
It's all too easy to ignore the 'airspace ahead' warnings, and don't forget these are dependant on the parameters you have set, but also, if the pilot is relying solely on gps when he programmes his waypoints/flight rather than also plotting his route on a chart he is allot less likely to pick up any possible conflict between route and restricted zones. Potentially any particular conflict may only become apparent when en-route and possibly (dependant on settings) when only a few miles out from the problem area.
Now, if the pilot is having a bit of a chin wag, gazing into the middle distance, etc, etc he may be less likely to pick up this conflict.

One point about whinging. if you are grumping on about someone's actions, but not prepared to do anything about it, then you are whinging. If however you intend to try and resolve the situation somehow, then you are passing on information and not being a whinge bag!

Well, with 1,500 topic views it could well be argued that a significant amount of pilots might now be a little more conscious of D129 than they were before. The intention of the thread was to bring about a discussion on D129 and by doing so maybe nudge a few awareness’s.