D129 & Kamikaze Pilots
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I've had a chance now to look at the 500k chart, and the AIP.
The AIP entry says:
Activity: Parachute Dropping (Air Force Dept).
No mention of gliders or civilian parachute dropping.
On the chart the restricted area forms an nice concentric circle inside the restricted area, and is referenced to note 1. It's not hidden under anything, and is quite easy to see.
Note one says "Weston on the green is extensively used for military parachute training. [....]". Again no mention of any civilian activity.
I'm assuming the parachute drop you referenced to in your original post were civilian, not military. If it was military this post makes no sense!
So is the following possible?
Pilot: G-xx [....] intending to pass through D129, request Danger Area Activity Information.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.
It would be very easy for someone looking at the chart, and having had that conversation with ATC to believe that nothing was taking place within the Danger Area.
It's clearly not correct to assume that, but it's very easy to see how it would happen. The pilot needs to make the connection that the D129 entry in the AIP, and note one on the chart, only mentions military parachuting, and nothing about civilian activity and nothing about gilders. Otherwise it would be very easy to assume "no military activity" included the gliding site.
Do you notify your gilding activities, to Brize Norton so they can let people requesting DA activity info know that the gilding site is active? Do you let them know before you do a parachute drop?
If not, then I would suggest that that would be a very helpful place to start.
I would also suggest that asking to CAA to amend the wording on note 1 on the chart to indicate that civilian activity also takes place even when military is not.
Again no criticism is intended in this post. I just hope to show you how it is possible for these things to happen. I have to say, that there but for the grace of God go I. If I contacted Brize Norton and had the above conversation with them, I could see how I would make the same mistake. Clearly it would be my fault, but none the less, a very very easy mistake to make.
If you are having 1 or 2 incidents a day, then surely it suggests that there is something more wrong than people not looking at the chart?
Anyway, I hope you find my suggestions useful.
dp
The AIP entry says:
Activity: Parachute Dropping (Air Force Dept).
No mention of gliders or civilian parachute dropping.
On the chart the restricted area forms an nice concentric circle inside the restricted area, and is referenced to note 1. It's not hidden under anything, and is quite easy to see.
Note one says "Weston on the green is extensively used for military parachute training. [....]". Again no mention of any civilian activity.
I'm assuming the parachute drop you referenced to in your original post were civilian, not military. If it was military this post makes no sense!
So is the following possible?
Pilot: G-xx [....] intending to pass through D129, request Danger Area Activity Information.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.
It would be very easy for someone looking at the chart, and having had that conversation with ATC to believe that nothing was taking place within the Danger Area.
It's clearly not correct to assume that, but it's very easy to see how it would happen. The pilot needs to make the connection that the D129 entry in the AIP, and note one on the chart, only mentions military parachuting, and nothing about civilian activity and nothing about gilders. Otherwise it would be very easy to assume "no military activity" included the gliding site.
Do you notify your gilding activities, to Brize Norton so they can let people requesting DA activity info know that the gilding site is active? Do you let them know before you do a parachute drop?
If not, then I would suggest that that would be a very helpful place to start.
I would also suggest that asking to CAA to amend the wording on note 1 on the chart to indicate that civilian activity also takes place even when military is not.
Again no criticism is intended in this post. I just hope to show you how it is possible for these things to happen. I have to say, that there but for the grace of God go I. If I contacted Brize Norton and had the above conversation with them, I could see how I would make the same mistake. Clearly it would be my fault, but none the less, a very very easy mistake to make.
If you are having 1 or 2 incidents a day, then surely it suggests that there is something more wrong than people not looking at the chart?
Anyway, I hope you find my suggestions useful.
dp
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I understand where you are coming from on this, however bear in mind it is marked as a 24 hour hazard.
As others have pointed out, flying straight through the middle of a gliding site marked on the map is pretty daft, but that's not related to any "infringement" of the danger area.
Is there, I wonder, any mileage in getting the DAAIS to say to punters "the danger area is inactive, but that only means there's no military parachuting going on just right now, you are aware that there's a gliding site in the same place aren't you"?
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Pilot: G-xx [....] intending to pass through D129, request Danger Area Activity Information.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.
For an H24 Danger Area there will be a formal agreement as to how the DAAIS unit is advised about the status of the Danger Area. This will also provide authorisation for the DAAIS unit to advise when there is no activity and so allow pilots to transit the airspace.
The type of phraseology used will be along the lines of 'Danger Area 129 is not active' although some military units also like to use the term 'Danger Area 129 is cold'. In either case, it only signifies that the notified Danger Area activity is not taking place, it makes no statement about any other aerial activity which might be found in the confines of the airspace.
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WOTG is clearly marked on the chart and very easy to distinguish from the air.
The notion that those who go through it somehow make a conscious decision about the risks/activity gives too much credit to what happens in reality. IMHO it is just ignorance in action.
It is marked as H24 and that is what it means.
Only a fool would fly through it.
In the same vein as that only fools fly over winch sites below 2000odd feet.
The notion that those who go through it somehow make a conscious decision about the risks/activity gives too much credit to what happens in reality. IMHO it is just ignorance in action.
It is marked as H24 and that is what it means.
Only a fool would fly through it.
In the same vein as that only fools fly over winch sites below 2000odd feet.
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That corner of Oxfordshire is a potentially scary piece of airspace. Not only have you got gliders and para dropping at Weston but intense gliding activity at Bicester as well.
I remember coming back once from Gloucester with a friend of mine. We wanted to have a look at Upper Heyford. Being aware of the danger area and also of Bicester, we kept as close to the edge of the Weston zone as we could to give Bicester a wide berth and were at 3500 feet. Despite two of us keeping a sharp lookout we were suddenly surrounded by about ten gliders above, below and to the sides.
Not somewhere I'm going to return to in a hurry, especially on a nice clear day!
Weston is clearly marked as a gliding site on the chart, and is very likely to be operational in that role at weekends. There's no excuse really.
RD
I remember coming back once from Gloucester with a friend of mine. We wanted to have a look at Upper Heyford. Being aware of the danger area and also of Bicester, we kept as close to the edge of the Weston zone as we could to give Bicester a wide berth and were at 3500 feet. Despite two of us keeping a sharp lookout we were suddenly surrounded by about ten gliders above, below and to the sides.
Not somewhere I'm going to return to in a hurry, especially on a nice clear day!
Weston is clearly marked as a gliding site on the chart, and is very likely to be operational in that role at weekends. There's no excuse really.
RD
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In either case, it only signifies that the notified Danger Area activity is not taking place, it makes no statement about any other aerial activity which might be found in the confines of the airspace.
For those that have a chart but aren't familiar with this area, have a look at it. See if your first reaction, (without reading the AIP or note 1) would be that the danger area is to protect the gilding & parachute drop site. Then imagine you are told that the Danger Area is Cold/inactive or whatever phraseology was used. How would you feel about crossing it then?
In my opinion, having seen it on the chart, but never been in the area before, it's crying out for someone to make that mistake. If Go Smoke is having an average or 2 aircraft fly though a day, then it would tend to suggest that this is a mistake that is regularly being made.
I suspect that this more to do with the problem, than lost or dangerous pilots.
Go-smoke, out of curiosity are the busts as common, when military activity is taking place??
dp
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There is pretty much always parachute dropping at Weston.
The sport parachute club is actually military as well.
As far as I am aware, Brize never direct anybody through the zone.
As far as the gliding operation goes - we activate with the Brize controllers at the start of each flying day.
The one or two infringement tend to be on the weekends when aviation activity is busier.
At the end of the day it's a very clearly marked danger zone active 24/7 and unless you're lost (and obviously situationally unaware) it's plain daft to fly through it.
I find it very difficult to believe that Brize Norton would clear anybody to fly through the zone knowing that there is a Dornier kicking out great tranches of free fall parachutists. A helicopter also dropping jumpers and winch launching to 2,000' with gliders local soaring.
The sport parachute club is actually military as well.
As far as I am aware, Brize never direct anybody through the zone.
As far as the gliding operation goes - we activate with the Brize controllers at the start of each flying day.
The one or two infringement tend to be on the weekends when aviation activity is busier.
At the end of the day it's a very clearly marked danger zone active 24/7 and unless you're lost (and obviously situationally unaware) it's plain daft to fly through it.
I find it very difficult to believe that Brize Norton would clear anybody to fly through the zone knowing that there is a Dornier kicking out great tranches of free fall parachutists. A helicopter also dropping jumpers and winch launching to 2,000' with gliders local soaring.
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Go Smoke,
I have some sympathy with you as I being an instructor at another gliding club that operates from within a Danger Area. Despite there being a DAAIS to support the area (and repeating tape annoncements when the DAAIS service is closed) and the area being notified as 24h in the AIP, we often get infrigments into the immediate circuit area, and our site lies significantly inside the Danger Area border.
The AIP states quite clearly that only the most likely dangers to be encountered are notified, (not all of them) and the DAAIS service provider may not be fully aware of the other activities.
The AIP also states that :
The purpose of the DAAIS is to enable pilots to obtain, via a Nominated Service Unit (NSU), an airborne update of the
activity status of a participating Danger Area whose position is relevant to the flight of the aircraft. Such an update will assist pilots in deciding whether it would be prudent, on flight safety grounds, to penetrate the area. It is strongly emphasized that information obtained from an NSU is only pertinent to the ACTIVITY STATUS of a Danger Area and is not a clearance to cross that Danger Area, whether or not it is active.
What I find difficlut to understand is that you either bust a Danger Area deliberately, and in which case you make a concious judgment to fly through this as part of you flight planning, or you bust it by making a mistake in navigation or through poor planing:
I can't conceive of too many occasions when I would make a concious decision to fly though a danger area without first establishing the level of danger present, and that would involve everything from establishing the By-Laws for the Danger Area, contacting the DAAIS or DACS, contacting the primary user of the Danger area etc... etc... etc..
I can't see too many people going through this hassel to try to ascertain the exact nature of the danger for a notified 24H, when it would be soo much easier to fly around it (Especially somewhere like D129)
Any 24H notified area, by definition is a danger 24/7- so why the NEED to fly though it?
This leaves me with the conclusion that these infringements occur as a result of either poor planning, or poor navigation, and the blame for this must lie firmly with the pilot.
I have some sympathy with you as I being an instructor at another gliding club that operates from within a Danger Area. Despite there being a DAAIS to support the area (and repeating tape annoncements when the DAAIS service is closed) and the area being notified as 24h in the AIP, we often get infrigments into the immediate circuit area, and our site lies significantly inside the Danger Area border.
The AIP states quite clearly that only the most likely dangers to be encountered are notified, (not all of them) and the DAAIS service provider may not be fully aware of the other activities.
The AIP also states that :
The purpose of the DAAIS is to enable pilots to obtain, via a Nominated Service Unit (NSU), an airborne update of the
activity status of a participating Danger Area whose position is relevant to the flight of the aircraft. Such an update will assist pilots in deciding whether it would be prudent, on flight safety grounds, to penetrate the area. It is strongly emphasized that information obtained from an NSU is only pertinent to the ACTIVITY STATUS of a Danger Area and is not a clearance to cross that Danger Area, whether or not it is active.
What I find difficlut to understand is that you either bust a Danger Area deliberately, and in which case you make a concious judgment to fly through this as part of you flight planning, or you bust it by making a mistake in navigation or through poor planing:
I can't conceive of too many occasions when I would make a concious decision to fly though a danger area without first establishing the level of danger present, and that would involve everything from establishing the By-Laws for the Danger Area, contacting the DAAIS or DACS, contacting the primary user of the Danger area etc... etc... etc..
I can't see too many people going through this hassel to try to ascertain the exact nature of the danger for a notified 24H, when it would be soo much easier to fly around it (Especially somewhere like D129)
Any 24H notified area, by definition is a danger 24/7- so why the NEED to fly though it?
This leaves me with the conclusion that these infringements occur as a result of either poor planning, or poor navigation, and the blame for this must lie firmly with the pilot.
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Now that the rant has died down we are seeing a little common sense prevail.
1. It is agreed that D129 is H24 and we all understand that that means keep out H24
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.
So what please is the communication channel that permits him to operate in this luxurious environment where he can look for overflying (and I don't mean only through the winch zone) up to FL85 (London TMA above that)any aircraft and report him for D129 infringement.
If he can operate a glider club without fear of military activity why can't we have equal access to this airspace on those occassions
1. It is agreed that D129 is H24 and we all understand that that means keep out H24
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.
So what please is the communication channel that permits him to operate in this luxurious environment where he can look for overflying (and I don't mean only through the winch zone) up to FL85 (London TMA above that)any aircraft and report him for D129 infringement.
If he can operate a glider club without fear of military activity why can't we have equal access to this airspace on those occassions
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Err... because he can??????
He probably has an airfield license from the CAA, the same as the one my club has, which tells him he can!
He probably has close liasion with the military traffic through radio/ telephone or personal contact... they may operate a joint control...who knows?
It doesn't 'just happen'.... unlike Danger Area infringements!
Fly around D129... you know it makes sense!
He probably has an airfield license from the CAA, the same as the one my club has, which tells him he can!
He probably has close liasion with the military traffic through radio/ telephone or personal contact... they may operate a joint control...who knows?
It doesn't 'just happen'.... unlike Danger Area infringements!
Fly around D129... you know it makes sense!
Presumably if D129 wasn't there, an active glider launch site would be shown on the chart and/or NOTAMed and we'd still all be doing our best to avoid it. It would appear to me that they leave D129 H24 simply to avoid issuing any extra paperwork - technically incorrect, but it works so why not?
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This is a related question, Rallye Driver wrote:
This sort of configuration is something that most power pilots would avoid - are gliders much more manoeuverable than powered aeroplanes, and is the visibility much better?
Or is it just that the "gaggle" of gliders are all used to flying with each other so are comfortable with that level of proximity?
Despite two of us keeping a sharp lookout we were suddenly surrounded by about ten gliders above, below and to the sides.
Or is it just that the "gaggle" of gliders are all used to flying with each other so are comfortable with that level of proximity?
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That’s an interesting question, JP59
The average roll rate for a 15m glider is about 4-4.5 seconds from 45 degrees left to 45 degrees right at about 50kts.
The average thermalling speed is about 50kts, and most competent glider pilots thermal with somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees angle of bank.
As regards to manoeuvrability and proximity in thermals, gliders established in a thermal will generally all be ascending in the same parcel of rising air, and therefore vertical separation would remain reasonably constant assuming that they are all climbing at the same rate and same efficiency. In practice there are slight variations and some pilots can climb faster than others while maintaining horizontal separation.
Horizontal separation is slightly different and requires an understanding of the convergace/divergace speeds and what to do if one or the other speeds up or slows down.
An overarching principle of constant lookout, situational awareness and airmanship ensures safe flying in a thermal, and gliders are sufficiently agile/ manoeuvrable at these speeds to ensure separation is relatively easily maintained.
There are well defined principles for joining, flying in and leaving a thermal to ensure that everybody can (in most cases) anticipate another gliders actions.
What really screws this up, if somebody, be it a glider or powered aircraft, does not adhere to these principles.
It takes significant concentration to fly in a tightly formed gaggle, especially in a competition where there could be upwards of 30 gliders in the same thermal. The levels of concentration tend to be focused on maintaining safe levels of separation... perhaps in this situation there is less focus on the PA-28 cruising in towards the gaggle at 90kts from the southeast!!
Does this help?
The average roll rate for a 15m glider is about 4-4.5 seconds from 45 degrees left to 45 degrees right at about 50kts.
The average thermalling speed is about 50kts, and most competent glider pilots thermal with somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees angle of bank.
As regards to manoeuvrability and proximity in thermals, gliders established in a thermal will generally all be ascending in the same parcel of rising air, and therefore vertical separation would remain reasonably constant assuming that they are all climbing at the same rate and same efficiency. In practice there are slight variations and some pilots can climb faster than others while maintaining horizontal separation.
Horizontal separation is slightly different and requires an understanding of the convergace/divergace speeds and what to do if one or the other speeds up or slows down.
An overarching principle of constant lookout, situational awareness and airmanship ensures safe flying in a thermal, and gliders are sufficiently agile/ manoeuvrable at these speeds to ensure separation is relatively easily maintained.
There are well defined principles for joining, flying in and leaving a thermal to ensure that everybody can (in most cases) anticipate another gliders actions.
What really screws this up, if somebody, be it a glider or powered aircraft, does not adhere to these principles.
It takes significant concentration to fly in a tightly formed gaggle, especially in a competition where there could be upwards of 30 gliders in the same thermal. The levels of concentration tend to be focused on maintaining safe levels of separation... perhaps in this situation there is less focus on the PA-28 cruising in towards the gaggle at 90kts from the southeast!!
Does this help?
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Whenever I have been speaking to Brize, and they think you are routing anywhere near WOTG, they make sure you are aware of Weston, and expect you to tell them you are routing clear of the zone. So in my experience Brize are acutely aware of the problem at Weston, and make sure you also know, but of course you need to be speaking to Brize in the first place.
I went to an evening session at Sibson, and aircraft bumbling through the drop zone is not uncommon. Some guilty parties have been tracked, and when spoken to, were totally unaware of the zone bust.
The video they have of a Chipmunk flying through, and the parachutist with a helmet camera filming how close he was to a collision is frightening.
I went to an evening session at Sibson, and aircraft bumbling through the drop zone is not uncommon. Some guilty parties have been tracked, and when spoken to, were totally unaware of the zone bust.
The video they have of a Chipmunk flying through, and the parachutist with a helmet camera filming how close he was to a collision is frightening.
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Given the slow advance of the Flexible Use of Airspace concept in Europe, whereby Danger Areas are being curtailed to only being active when they are actually hosting 'dangerous' activities, it might come to pass that D129 H24 status is removed in time. This will of course involve the Danger Area authority having to do some donkey work and issue NOTAMs, but it works for 99% of the other Danger Areas in the country, some of which arguably see a lot more actual dangerous activity.
If that did happen then I think it would be kind of hard to justify the area being notified as active purely because civil gliding and/or parachuting is taking place when the rest of the country has no such protection.
Regardless of the Danger Area activity however, airmanship dictates you should give notified gliding and paradrop sites a wide berth
so there should always be a common sense balance applied between the needs of all airspace users and the availability of unrestricted airspace.
If that did happen then I think it would be kind of hard to justify the area being notified as active purely because civil gliding and/or parachuting is taking place when the rest of the country has no such protection.
Regardless of the Danger Area activity however, airmanship dictates you should give notified gliding and paradrop sites a wide berth
so there should always be a common sense balance applied between the needs of all airspace users and the availability of unrestricted airspace.
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1. It is agreed that D129 is H24 and we all understand that that means keep out H24
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.
We operate together on the airfield. We have a very clear and pre arranged set up for each and every day with very clearly defined areas apportioned to each activity with buffer zones.
We are in constant radio contact with the jump aircraft and the DZ controller. We do not launch when they are 2 mins to live drop, in free fall or under canopy.
Assuming none of the above are happening we call for launch and assuming a 'clear launch' is given then we do so.
If the Squaddies or Special Forces wish to drop then we all have to pack up whilst they do so.
There is no down time or quiet period - the jump aircraft are up and down all day like the proverbial women of the nights draws.
If they're not actually dropping then we will be launching.
If neither RAFSPA or us are operating it's because they are mil dropping.
We speak to the jump aircraft, brize zone, DZ controller. If they are mil dropping they inform us and we all vacate the field whilst they do so. Any and all of the above hapens SEVEN DAYS A WEEK 24 HOURS A DAY.
p.s. They are not toys - please acept my offer to come gliding with us sometime (you maybe pleasantly suprised)
pm me if you wish to do this.
So what please is the communication channel that permits him to operate in this luxurious environment where he can look for overflying (and I don't mean only through the winch zone) up to FL85 (London TMA above that)any aircraft and report him for D129 infringement.
You try being stuck on the floor as hour after hour of military meat bombing goes on and the sky is looking like a 750k day. Almost physically painful!
Please bear in mind that on any day that is soarable most gliders will be taking off and then flying cross country so will be away from the airfield for anything other than take off and landing.
The training fleet stay local - usual circuits,landings, take offs.
If he can operate a glider club without fear of military activity why can't we have equal access to this airspace on those occassions
Come and visit, it will help you understand the operation.
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We speak to the jump aircraft, brize zone, DZ controller.
That answers a great deal of what I was interested in. If Brize is aware that you are gliding on that particular day, and I called them up for a DAAIS, and they told me that no military activity was taking place, but failed to mention your gilding (that had been notified to them), I'd be rather put out. They would be technically correct, but it would be rather poor form on their behalf.
I still think that asking the CAA to amend the wording on note one on the 500k chart so that is indicated that gilding/parachuting took place even when the "Danger Activity" was not taking place, would be helpful to your cause.
dp