Aerobatic training
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From: S089
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Horsham
Again thanks all for your replies, lots of good interesting options and info coming in!
Pitts I am going to finish the AOPA as I only have 2 1/2 hours to go. I think I may have been confused by the aerobatic checks listed on www.tigerclub.co.uk, thinking they were some form of signing off, or rating.
I did plan to go and fly with the tigerclub for tailwheel and aerobatics towards the end of the year, has anyone flown there, the website makes it look like a really interesting airfield with alot of events.
Thanks again.
Pitts I am going to finish the AOPA as I only have 2 1/2 hours to go. I think I may have been confused by the aerobatic checks listed on www.tigerclub.co.uk, thinking they were some form of signing off, or rating.
I did plan to go and fly with the tigerclub for tailwheel and aerobatics towards the end of the year, has anyone flown there, the website makes it look like a really interesting airfield with alot of events.
Thanks again.
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Massachusetts Bay Colony
Cos,
Sounds like a good plan if you're that close to finishing the course.
I've flown into Headcorn a couple of times. Very aerobatic-friendly airport and the people I met at the Tigerclub were superb and very welcoming. I'd highy recommend spending a bit of time there and getting to know them and see if you fit in.
Good luck and if you're ever at Popham, come looking for The Magnolia Pitts and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.
Good luck!
Pitts2112
Sounds like a good plan if you're that close to finishing the course.
I've flown into Headcorn a couple of times. Very aerobatic-friendly airport and the people I met at the Tigerclub were superb and very welcoming. I'd highy recommend spending a bit of time there and getting to know them and see if you fit in.
Good luck and if you're ever at Popham, come looking for The Magnolia Pitts and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.
Good luck!
Pitts2112
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Kent
Tiger Club
An interesting and different experience, particularly if you come to it from a Spam Can oriented training environment. You will be flying with "check pilots" rather than instructors, but don't worry about that, as they typically have gazillions of hours, so you really are in competent hands.
You can do tailwheel training on the Cub for about £85 per engine hour.
The check pilot approach does mean that you can get very different views on how to fly, but I believe you come out of the experience a much more flexible, knowledgeable pilot.
As said before, the vast majority of the club are friendly and welcoming, and it has more than it's fair share of interesting oddballs, though one or two were clearly badly beaten in their childhood
.
As an added bonus, there's nothing to beat Headcorn on a hot summers weekend for sheer buzz and interest.
An interesting and different experience, particularly if you come to it from a Spam Can oriented training environment. You will be flying with "check pilots" rather than instructors, but don't worry about that, as they typically have gazillions of hours, so you really are in competent hands.
You can do tailwheel training on the Cub for about £85 per engine hour.
The check pilot approach does mean that you can get very different views on how to fly, but I believe you come out of the experience a much more flexible, knowledgeable pilot.
As said before, the vast majority of the club are friendly and welcoming, and it has more than it's fair share of interesting oddballs, though one or two were clearly badly beaten in their childhood
.As an added bonus, there's nothing to beat Headcorn on a hot summers weekend for sheer buzz and interest.
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From: across the border....
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no aerobatic aircraft should be without one!
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MLS-12D
"I take it that you have no experience with glider aerobatics"
OK, no powered aerobatic aircraft should be without one!
re. the glider aerobatics, I have actually (including a Fox).
7700
no aerobatic aircraft should be without one!
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MLS-12D
"I take it that you have no experience with glider aerobatics"
OK, no powered aerobatic aircraft should be without one!
re. the glider aerobatics, I have actually (including a Fox).
7700
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: The Heart
MLS,
Yes, 'proper' aeros.
Manouvres conducted with the emphasis on accuracy of line, precision and symmetry. Positioning and presentation of manouvres to the judges and exchange of energy for the flow of the sequence.
Competition aeros by their very nature require discipline. Much as a nose wheel aircraft can be landed within a range of attitudes but a tailwheel aircraft can only be three-pointed in one.
Thus 'proper' aeros rather than just the safe completion of aerobatic manouvres.
Cosworth,
I admit to being a member. There is nowhere in the world which can compete with the atmosphere, variety and experience of people and flying at the club.
The Garden Party (8-9 september) may give you an entertaining introduction if you'd care to drop by.
Yes, 'proper' aeros.
Manouvres conducted with the emphasis on accuracy of line, precision and symmetry. Positioning and presentation of manouvres to the judges and exchange of energy for the flow of the sequence.
Competition aeros by their very nature require discipline. Much as a nose wheel aircraft can be landed within a range of attitudes but a tailwheel aircraft can only be three-pointed in one.
Thus 'proper' aeros rather than just the safe completion of aerobatic manouvres.
Cosworth,
I admit to being a member. There is nowhere in the world which can compete with the atmosphere, variety and experience of people and flying at the club.
The Garden Party (8-9 september) may give you an entertaining introduction if you'd care to drop by.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Horsham
Pitts I will definately pop over and say hi, I am a big fan of the Pitts Special, one of my fave aircraft, love to see what it can do. Did you read the article on the pitts day out to toulouse recently in Pilot?
I'd love to go to the tiger clubs party but I will be at EFT in the states at that point, though upon my return in Dec I will definately be heading over!
I've heard of the "check" pilot scenario at Tiger and it sounds like a mutually beneficial way of flying for check pilot and student alike, while saving instructor fee's! More FTO's should adopt it!
I'd love to go to the tiger clubs party but I will be at EFT in the states at that point, though upon my return in Dec I will definately be heading over!
I've heard of the "check" pilot scenario at Tiger and it sounds like a mutually beneficial way of flying for check pilot and student alike, while saving instructor fee's! More FTO's should adopt it!
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From: Massachusetts Bay Colony
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Did you read the article on the pitts day out to toulouse recently in Pilot?
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Read it? I bloody wrote it!!
We're doing it again in about 2 weeks going to another chateau! We didn't get as far as Toulouse, though. More like Abbeville for a night over in Roune. Great time was had by all, I can assure you, and expectations for the next one are high as well!
The Pitts can do more than I'll ever ask it to. If you get a chance, get some time in one sometime. It'll spoil you forever!
Pitts2112
Did you read the article on the pitts day out to toulouse recently in Pilot?
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Read it? I bloody wrote it!!
We're doing it again in about 2 weeks going to another chateau! We didn't get as far as Toulouse, though. More like Abbeville for a night over in Roune. Great time was had by all, I can assure you, and expectations for the next one are high as well!
The Pitts can do more than I'll ever ask it to. If you get a chance, get some time in one sometime. It'll spoil you forever!
Pitts2112
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,966
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From: Norfolk
??
Read it? I bloody wrote it!!
And what a superb piece it was - we are really looking forward to drinking all the beer that your fee for the article will provide in 3 weeks in Dijon.
Flossie sends love from here in deepest Ireland!!
Stik
And what a superb piece it was - we are really looking forward to drinking all the beer that your fee for the article will provide in 3 weeks in Dijon.
Flossie sends love from here in deepest Ireland!!
Stik
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Horsham
I popped into to see the tiger club today at Headcorn, they were a very friendly bunch, and a good vibe across the whole airfield. Their cap10 is a lovely looking aircraft and seems to be in very good condition.
Pitts I enjoyed that article, especially the story of your run and break at Lydd!
Pitts I enjoyed that article, especially the story of your run and break at Lydd!
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Massachusetts Bay Colony
Thanks, Cos and Stik. The article wouldn't have been half of what it was if Stik hadn't been with us and when I say "I wrote" really it was a collaborative effort of everyone who went - which is part of the reason it appeared in the magazine in May when we did the trip the previous September.
Yeah, the run and break at Lydd seems to have stuck in people's minds for some reason. I'm not sure which was more fun, doing the run and break or watching our intrepid leader contend with the bollocking from the tower.
Stik, is the fee from the article going to be used for drinks in August or for bail this weekend? Let me know if any of you need a character witness!
Pitts2112
Yeah, the run and break at Lydd seems to have stuck in people's minds for some reason. I'm not sure which was more fun, doing the run and break or watching our intrepid leader contend with the bollocking from the tower.
Stik, is the fee from the article going to be used for drinks in August or for bail this weekend? Let me know if any of you need a character witness!
Pitts2112
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
"I've heard of the "check" pilot scenario at Tiger and it sounds like a mutually beneficial way of flying for check pilot and student alike, while saving instructor fee's! More FTO's should adopt it!"
But is it legal? Unless holding at least a CRI Rating, there is no legal way for such instruction to be given unless someone very brave at the CAA has issued some form of exemption. And you should certainly NOT be charged for any such 'check' by a non-CPL holding non-FI/CRI!
To my mind, anyone giving aerobatic instruction to a licence holding pilot must be AT LEAST a CRI(A) - and if charging for such, must of course hold a Professional Licence.
But is it legal? Unless holding at least a CRI Rating, there is no legal way for such instruction to be given unless someone very brave at the CAA has issued some form of exemption. And you should certainly NOT be charged for any such 'check' by a non-CPL holding non-FI/CRI!
To my mind, anyone giving aerobatic instruction to a licence holding pilot must be AT LEAST a CRI(A) - and if charging for such, must of course hold a Professional Licence.
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From: Kent
BEagle, Foxmoth,
Probably need someone in the know from the club to comment.
However, note I didn't say they were not FIs, they may well be - its just that they don't call themselves that. The key difference (and main benefit) is that they don't charge
.
Probably need someone in the know from the club to comment.
However, note I didn't say they were not FIs, they may well be - its just that they don't call themselves that. The key difference (and main benefit) is that they don't charge
.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
But is it legal? Unless holding at least a CRI Rating, there is no legal way for such instruction to be given unless someone very brave at the CAA has issued some form of exemption.
To my mind, anyone giving aerobatic instruction to a licence holding pilot must be AT LEAST a CRI(A) - and if charging for such, must of course hold a Professional Licence.
IIRC, Duane Cole lost his medical about ten years before his death, but continued to give informal aerobatic instruction ... and his services were sought-after by those in a position to know.
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From: The Heart
BEagle,
If I may address your last post, what a load of twoddle!!!
I believe the check pilots, quite coincidentally, do hold instructors ratings or higher. The system has been in place for, oh, nearly fifty years and has worked well, the Tiger Club having been a breeding ground for aerobatic, racing and display pilots for most of this time. You'll want to check your history books to see the role of the Tiger Club in UK GA.
The Club has a system which imposes a higher standard than the law requires.
Type specific training, aerobatics and formation flying require no special qualification of the teacher, there being no specific qualification to receive. You 'could' teach yourself.
Whilst the check pilots hold professional licences none of them charge for their time or experience. Put rather romantically you could say that they are 'giving' back to a club which has been so generous to give them those skills in the first place.
Perhaps, in this cynical world, it is hard to believe that there are people who just love flying old aeroplanes.
As for "To my mind, anyone giving aerobatic instruction to a licence holding pilot must be AT LEAST a CRI(A)"...I nearly fell of my chair at such blind nonsense!
Instructors building hours to get their careers started seems to me like the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
If I may address your last post, what a load of twoddle!!!
I believe the check pilots, quite coincidentally, do hold instructors ratings or higher. The system has been in place for, oh, nearly fifty years and has worked well, the Tiger Club having been a breeding ground for aerobatic, racing and display pilots for most of this time. You'll want to check your history books to see the role of the Tiger Club in UK GA.
The Club has a system which imposes a higher standard than the law requires.
Type specific training, aerobatics and formation flying require no special qualification of the teacher, there being no specific qualification to receive. You 'could' teach yourself.
Whilst the check pilots hold professional licences none of them charge for their time or experience. Put rather romantically you could say that they are 'giving' back to a club which has been so generous to give them those skills in the first place.
Perhaps, in this cynical world, it is hard to believe that there are people who just love flying old aeroplanes.
As for "To my mind, anyone giving aerobatic instruction to a licence holding pilot must be AT LEAST a CRI(A)"...I nearly fell of my chair at such blind nonsense!
Instructors building hours to get their careers started seems to me like the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Miserlou, firstly there is no need to be so rude.
Since the advent of JAR-FCL, any instruction, of whatever kind, has to be given (at SEP Class SPA level) by either a FI(A) (for ab-initio) or by FI(A)/CRI(A) (for licence holders).
So the statement made by one poster "You will be flying with "check pilots" rather than instructors, but don't worry about that" cannot be legally correct. There is nothing to prevent suitably qualified people, including well-qualified aerobatic pilots, from becoming bona fide CRI(A)s (as all PFA coaches now are) in order to conduct properly regulated training.
Requirements for CRI(A) Ratings and their revalidation and/or renewal are far simpler than for FI(A) Ratings.
As for "Type specific training, aerobatics and formation flying require no special qualification of the teacher, there being no specific qualification to receive. You 'could' teach yourself."; that my friend is truly 'twaddle'.
Since the advent of JAR-FCL, any instruction, of whatever kind, has to be given (at SEP Class SPA level) by either a FI(A) (for ab-initio) or by FI(A)/CRI(A) (for licence holders).
So the statement made by one poster "You will be flying with "check pilots" rather than instructors, but don't worry about that" cannot be legally correct. There is nothing to prevent suitably qualified people, including well-qualified aerobatic pilots, from becoming bona fide CRI(A)s (as all PFA coaches now are) in order to conduct properly regulated training.
Requirements for CRI(A) Ratings and their revalidation and/or renewal are far simpler than for FI(A) Ratings.
As for "Type specific training, aerobatics and formation flying require no special qualification of the teacher, there being no specific qualification to receive. You 'could' teach yourself."; that my friend is truly 'twaddle'.
Last edited by BEagle; 19th July 2005 at 05:53.