Aerobatic training
 

Hi,

I've nearly completed my AOPA aerobatics certificate in a Robin 2160i, but unfortunatley the very good club I fly with has run into trouble (regarding renewal of leases) and I may be unable to complete my certificate. They have offered to continue my training with a local clubs decathlon but I do not have a tail wheel rating.

I need to complete my training in the next 7 weeks as I am off to EFT to complete the APP. I have completed 5 1/2 hours and have covered everything including emergencies, just combinations and the test to do.

Can anyone recommend any flying clubs that offer the AOPA aerobatics certificate in SE england that operate a reasonalby powerful (ie not 152 cessna) aircraft that isnt tailwheel so I can complete the certificate?

Thanks

So?

There is no such thing as a "tail wheel rating". It's just differences training that an instructor will sign off in your logbook when you are competent.

Why not finish the training in the Decathlon as suggested and get the above signed off at the same time? One way of getting more for your money ;)

In addition to what Chilli said, is there a requirement in the AOPA syllabus that you have to do the take offs and landings, too? I'm sure you've already thought of this, but I can't help myself in suggesting that the instructor to all the "tailwheel" bits of the flying and you do all the aerobatic bits. After all, once the wheels are off the ground, a tailwheel airplane is just another airplane. And a Decathalon is a rather nice one at that!

Pitts2112
Got my tailwheel endorsement in a Super-D after only 10 hours. And, quite frankly, 5 of that was just to make up the time.

try Ultimate High at Kemble.

Out of your way a bit, but they can give you intensive training and get you sorted min fuss.

KMB01

I rather think anything worth aerobatting has a tailwheel anyway.

Get yourself into the Decathlon and complete your basic flying training, ie. the ability to operate aircraft with conventional undercarriage.

As stated above it would be killing two birds with one stone.


Pitts2112,
10 hours for a tailwheel conversion is, as can be read from your post, double what it takes (for most students). How 'bout you name and shame the club who so shamelessly fleeces their customers in this way?

I have a friend who offers a combined tailwheel/aeros course for which the lesson plan is 10 hours. The aeros bit is quite thorough including flat spins, Muller recovery, and inverted spin.

Thanks for the replies, the decathlon looks like a fine plane for aerobatics, plus I do plan to go tailwheel when I get back from the first phase and start the ATPL.

The only downside i can see is that once I have completed the AOPA certificate, lets say on the decathlon, I will not be able to show off my new skills to my friends until I get back from the US and finish the tailwheel conversion!

I've heard of an operator in Shoreham that offers a slingsby, but have also heard it is underpowered like the C152.

Thanks for your help

:ok:

I know a few Yak 52 drivers who would take exception to that statement.

(and probably a few Tucanno pilots, Hawk pilots, PC9 pilots, .......)

Cosworth211,

I think Ulitmate High also have a place at Goodwood, which might by more convenient for you than Kemble.

Western Air at Thruxton have a Slingsby T67M Firefly which is very reasonably priced per hour. I know they do aerobatics training, but I don't know whether they do the AOPA Certificate. Give them a call on 01264 - 773913, (the CFI is Barry Dyke).

I believe there is also a newly arrived specialist aerobatics outfit at Thruxton operating Pittses. Alas, I know nothing about them beyond the fact that they are there. Ask Thruxton's airfield manager; he should know about them.

Good luck!

Broomstick.

Know a very competent and capable instructor in mid Suffolk with a Cap10C.

Stik

pm me for contact details

I really appreciate all the replies, I do plan to move onto caps and ultimately pitts, and cash allowing the extra 300's, however I really would like to finish the AOPA cert on a trike wheel craft. The robin 2160i was fantastic, no vairable pitch, really had to work to make the moves look good, made you a really good pilot. Does anyone operate one in SE? Otherwise I am considering using the decathlon and finishing the tail wheel later, tho I really will miss showing off my new moves before moving to the US!

Cheers again!

SATCO,

I could add a few exceptions myself, the Slingsby, for one, is a lovely aircraft but there are few of the types you mention which are available to the private pilot.

Cosworth,
Just to add, there is no requirement for an AOPA aeros certificate. If your intentions are the more exotic types you mention then you would be better served going to one of the aeros training folk who train to competition standards, even if competition is not your goal.

A competition licence is worth more than the AOPA certificate.

I'd get yourself in the Super Decathlon, VP prop is nothing to worry about - no aerobatic aircraft should be without one!

The Super D should have enough go with 180hp. I fly a Decathlon at Tatenhill - before the prop got changed for a fixed pitch item it was adequate with 150hp.

It took me 3.5hrs to get signed off for tailwheel - I'd try to finish the aeros course on the Decathlon, at least it shouldn't then take more than a couple of hours of dedicated circuit work to get signed off for the tailwheel.

Decathlon preferably over a Firefly, it's a lot more responsive, but
if you do go to Western Air, their Firefly's OK and Barry Dyke is a
good instructor.

7700

Cosworth, I suggest a visit to Goodwood, where Vectair operate G-VECG a Robin 2160i and Goodwood Flying School operate G-IZZZ a Super Decathlon. Both options in one (fairly local to you) place!
Slip

Miserlou,

This was a few years ago and the club (Sherwood at Nottingham) have since moved the Super-D on (to Tatenhill, I believe). I didn't mind too much as I was having fun and it was my only access to a taildragger at the time. Ironically, one day I flew a C152 from Leicester to Nottingham just to do an hour or two in the Super-D. I don't think I've touched a 152 since (and don't miss it a bit!)

From there to Super Cub, then Taylorcraft, and now in Pitts. Not a bad progression, I think. :-)

Cosworth, I'm not really sure what the AOPA aerobatics certificate really gives you, so I'm not sure of the benefits of "completing" it, other than to say you have a piece of paper. I've flown aerobatics for 4 years, competed for one, had some dual training, lots of hangar flying and trying things out myself. Never took the AOPA course. I guess what I'm saying is, if finishing the certificate is causing you some stress and hard work, don't sweat it because you can't really do anything with it once you have it. May as well take the training you've had and apply it to a taildragger and just get on with it. Have fun and consider forgetting about a "qualification" that doesn't actually qualify you for anything.

Pitts2112

As much as it pains me to publically concur with 2112, a Septic, I fear that I have to!

Miserlou's "competition licence" post sums it up.

2112 was a v succesful competitor, he just couldn't stand all the tea drinking required!


Stik

Vectair in Goodwood is where I am doing the AOPA using the 2160i, that is the club that unfortunately is closing down. I wanted to do the AOPA as an introduction to see if its for me, and if after the course it wasn't at least I had a certificate to show the achievement. And now I am totally hooked and plan to move onto the more advanced licenses etc once the AOPA is completed.

Pitts if you have the time please could you give me more of an insight into how you progressed to competition level, the number of hours before you could compete/get signed off for lower altitudes etc, the craft you use etc, by PM if you prefer.

PS received good news, the 2160i's owner has agreed to let me use it for another 3 weeks to complete the certificate.

Cosworth,

You may well find it well worthwhile going to the Tiger Club at Headcorn. They'll give you a taildragger checkout and teach you 'proper' aeros, and you can take part in the monthly competitions throughout the summer to get a feel for it.

As a side benefit you've got Nick Onn and Richard Pickin practicing unlimited level in the overhead and other former international level competitors and display pilots available to teach you.
There is simply no better value for money than that.

Cos,

Well, I think you may be looking for something that doesn't exist. In the UK there is no aerobatic qualification or license or anything like that. You can do anything you like within the limits of the airplane, the airspace, the ANO, and your abilities. No one signs you off to fly at a lower altitude (however you define that) but you do need to get a signoff from the British Aerobatic Association to fly in their competitions at anything higher than Beginner. But that sign off doesn't allow you to do anything other than participate in their competitions. Rule 5 always applies, unless it's specifically exempted like for an air display or a competition.

Your training and abilities notwithstanding, as long as you don't bust Rule 5, you can fly any way you like at any altitude you like, but it may not be smart to do so. For myself, I never practice aerobatics lower than a 1000 foot floor. That's because I competed in that range of airspace so I know what my airplane will do relative to that floor. Most often, though, I'm much higher than that, especially if trying something new.

You may be confusing aerobatics with a Display Authorisation (DA). A DA is given by the CAA after a pilot has passed an oral and flying exam and will be given with specific limitations, usually not flying aerobatics lower than 500 feet AGL for a new display pilot. for more advanced pilots, the clearances will be much lower, as low as 30 feet in some cases. A guy like Will Curtis probably has an Unlimited DA which will allow him to go down to 30 feet. This allows you to fly at whatever altitude your DA clears you for at official air displays in front of a crowd. It doesn't allow you to do anything else anywhere else, but if you want to, say, perform at the Goodwood festival, you would have to have a DA from the CAA. If Will Curtis wants to go perform aerobatics over his buddy's backyard BBQ, he can do that as long as he obeys Rule 5, but having a DA doesn't mean he can go do a display over his BBQ at 30 feet. Am I explaining this very well?

As for how I got to competition standard (a phrase that will have the likes of Sticknruda in stitches!), I took a couple of informal lessons with guys on some basics, had lots of long conversations on the ground with guys who really knew how to fly Pitts Specials, went up to about 6,000 feet and tried things out. I've always been very honest with myself about my own limitations (and when I wasn't, the judges sure as hell were!) and I only push them in small increments in order to learn. I'm at the point now where I wouldn't want to do too much else without some good formal instruction.

Hope that helps. If it was me spending the money, I'd ditch the nosewheel airplane and the AOPA thing, go find an instructor and tell him what you want to do, and just go fly to achieve whatever your goal is. But that's just my .02 worth. In any case, keep your enthusiasm up, have great fun, and fly safely!

Pitts2112

If you want to try competition have a word with Ultimate High, they are doing a beginners comp at Kemble on 20th, you could probably use either the Robin or one of UHs Bulldogs, though with either you might want one of their instructors along as safety pilot considering your current aeros experience. Have a look at the UH website ( http://www.ultimatehigh.co.uk/ for more or give Mark a ring there and see if he thinks you might be up to it.;)

Cosworth211,

I run an AOPA aerobatics course at Cambridge on our Slingsby T67 260M Firefly. I'm sure you know that it's a tricycle undercarriage and has pleanty of power, so it's easy and quick to get on with the training, and easy to convert to.

Availability is good at the moment and I'd be more than happy to pick up where you left off and finish your certificate.

If you're interested give me a call on (01223) 373717 and ask to speak to Luke. Ask for my mobile number if I'm not in the office.

Take a look here for more info: http://www.cambridgeaeroclub.com

Best wishes,

Luke