Wrong-way downwind joins
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My dear Send Clowns, I have worked an aerodrome in Class D airspace for many years and, whilst you may not see any point in using an overhead join, I can assure you I have instructed many an aircraft to do one because it's the safest way to integrate it into the traffic flow. Granted it's not always a good idea, for example, if there's a jet rolling I don't want a light aircraft crossing the climb out at circuit height - and there are many other good reasons why an overhead join may be more trouble than it's worth. But that's my job as a controller - to look at the big picture. I mean no disrespect to any light aircraft pilots (I am one myself at times) but there have been too many occasions when passing traffic information has not been enough to prevent a potentially hazardous situation arising which I, as controller, then have to help to resolve.
In Class D in nice wx, yes the controller only has to pass traffic and not separate VFR aircraft but he or she also has to manage the overall flow of traffic within the airspace. This is why many controllers (although not all) provide more specific clearances than are necessary.
Slightly off topic I know but this perspective may well help to understand why joining instructions are issued the way they are. Why would the controller want an aircraft to go opposite direction to the downwind traffic I still don't know - the ony person who can tell is likely to be the controller.
So, FF, even if you're bored, if you want the answer, give the controller a call. Perhaps your controller simply believes that VFR flights get traffic and then sort themselves out!
vancouv, CAP 413 (Chapter 4 Page 32) now includes a description of the standard overhead join.
Speaking as a controller \'deadside\' join is not a term I\'m familiar with.
I think I would call what you describe a crosswind join.
Using the CAP 413 diagram, a crosswid join would be appropriate if you were approaching from the \'South\'. This would enable you to descend to circuit height as you near the field and to join the crosswind leg directly. By contrast, an overhead join would require you to stay at 2000ft or whatever, come to the overhead, fly to the North of the field and then to make a 180° turn starting your descent to circuit height around position 1 on the diagram.
Hope that helps!
In Class D in nice wx, yes the controller only has to pass traffic and not separate VFR aircraft but he or she also has to manage the overall flow of traffic within the airspace. This is why many controllers (although not all) provide more specific clearances than are necessary.
Slightly off topic I know but this perspective may well help to understand why joining instructions are issued the way they are. Why would the controller want an aircraft to go opposite direction to the downwind traffic I still don't know - the ony person who can tell is likely to be the controller.
So, FF, even if you're bored, if you want the answer, give the controller a call. Perhaps your controller simply believes that VFR flights get traffic and then sort themselves out!
vancouv, CAP 413 (Chapter 4 Page 32) now includes a description of the standard overhead join.
Speaking as a controller \'deadside\' join is not a term I\'m familiar with.
I think I would call what you describe a crosswind join.
Using the CAP 413 diagram, a crosswid join would be appropriate if you were approaching from the \'South\'. This would enable you to descend to circuit height as you near the field and to join the crosswind leg directly. By contrast, an overhead join would require you to stay at 2000ft or whatever, come to the overhead, fly to the North of the field and then to make a 180° turn starting your descent to circuit height around position 1 on the diagram.
Hope that helps!
Last edited by Spitoon; 28th Jun 2005 at 10:57.
Jet Blast Rat
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Ah, maybe I over-generalise. Certainly here at Bournemouth it would lead to awful confusion, as there is no dead side, and I have never known them to give overhead joins, I doubt they would allow it. It is an extremely busy airport, and GA operations are only kept smooth by tight control with very few aircraft ever crossing the extended centreline within the zone. They are very successful, few delays even for us puddle jumpers!
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quite a few airfield have say a left hand circuit for f/w and a r/h for rotary
sherburn is one of them it makes you hair on the back of your neck stand on end when a f/w pilot calls desending deadside when you are downwind in a rotary on the same side i often wonder if deadside means thats what going to happen to me or other rotarys
steve
sherburn is one of them it makes you hair on the back of your neck stand on end when a f/w pilot calls desending deadside when you are downwind in a rotary on the same side i often wonder if deadside means thats what going to happen to me or other rotarys
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Can I put in a good word for the standard military circuit pattern? You join at (and call) Initials (2nm from the threshold, slightly to the deadside of the extended centreline) and descend to hit circuit height abeam the threshold, still slightly to the deadside. This keeps you 1000ft above the traffic on finals at all points. Then you call deadside, track alongside the runway just on the deadside (giving you a grandstand view of what's going on on the runway); at the upwind end you turn crosswind (you won't hit someone just taking off, because you've been able to see the runway throughout this manoeuvre); then call downwind as usual. I'm not massively attached to the long curved finals - a square base and final would do fine - but up to that point I think it's unbeatable.
Tim
Tim
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My reaction to such a clearance would be to remind the controller of my position.
I don't know of any controller who would require a VFR flight to fly past the airport and make a 180 degree turn to come back to almost where they were in the first place before turning base. Most ATC units use holding to delay traffic and everyone previously pointed out the dangers of going against the flow downwind.
If the traffic situation precluded a base leg join then I would expect to be given a zone entry clearance via a position that was appropriate to a downwind join. Anything else and then I expect that either I have made an error i.e. joined via the wrong VRP fro example or ATC have made an error and think I am somwhere else. Bothe situations require clarification rather than blind obedience.
Regards,
DFC
I don't know of any controller who would require a VFR flight to fly past the airport and make a 180 degree turn to come back to almost where they were in the first place before turning base. Most ATC units use holding to delay traffic and everyone previously pointed out the dangers of going against the flow downwind.
If the traffic situation precluded a base leg join then I would expect to be given a zone entry clearance via a position that was appropriate to a downwind join. Anything else and then I expect that either I have made an error i.e. joined via the wrong VRP fro example or ATC have made an error and think I am somwhere else. Bothe situations require clarification rather than blind obedience.
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 28th Jun 2005 at 21:54.
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When the rotary circuit is active at Wolverhampton, deadside joins are perfectly ok, but fixed wing are given a minimum height limit of 1300' QFE on deadside to avoid them! only after you've passed through the extended cetreline when turning crosswind can you descend to circuit height. I found this to work pretty well both when EGBO had ATC and in it's current AFIS state.
JW
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DFC,
Excuse me - are you implying that I'm making this up ?
I can assure you I'm not the sort to "blindly obey" anyone - and that includes those who abusively pontificate on forums such as this. My intention in asking the question was to see if I have any gaps in my knowledge before I discuss this with the (extremely professional) ATCOs at this field.
Being able to write constructively without implied criticism is a skill which some have obviously yet to learn ....
FF
I don't know of any controller who would require a VFR flight to fly past the airport and make a 180 degree turn to come back to almost where they were in the first place before turning base.
Bothe situations require clarification rather than blind obedience.
Being able to write constructively without implied criticism is a skill which some have obviously yet to learn ....
FF
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I think the best thing to do is, next time you find yourself at this airport, go to the control tower, knock on the door and ask them. Nothing is really standard in this country as we have a space issue.
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FF
I'm sure you're right, but so is DFC. I wouldn't dream of doing what is happening to you. If it is happening it sounds like there's pretty poor co-ordination going on between the radar and the tower controllers and it needs sorting out.
Definitely get in touch and ask why it's happening? They're not ogres who bite, and it's a reasonable question.
I'm sure you're right, but so is DFC. I wouldn't dream of doing what is happening to you. If it is happening it sounds like there's pretty poor co-ordination going on between the radar and the tower controllers and it needs sorting out.
Definitely get in touch and ask why it's happening? They're not ogres who bite, and it's a reasonable question.
