Paper Logbook Requirement?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11
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From: UK
Paper Logbook Requirement?
Hi all,
Does anybody know if it's a legal requirement to have a paper logbook.
I current use a paper logbook and an excel spreadsheet - I'm wondering if it's ok to just use the spreadspeed.
Any references to the law would be welcomed.
Many thanks
4Ohm
Does anybody know if it's a legal requirement to have a paper logbook.
I current use a paper logbook and an excel spreadsheet - I'm wondering if it's ok to just use the spreadspeed.
Any references to the law would be welcomed.
Many thanks
4Ohm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Article 28 of the ANO
A printout in a binder might do the trick but I suspect the electronic version would not.
Mike
28 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and
every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:.......etc
every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:.......etc
Mike
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Manual vs Electronic Logbooks
Can anyone explain why they would prefer to keep their flight records in an Excel spreadsheet over a manual, and easily transportable logbook?
Mine has stamps of approvals/revalidations etc and on wet winter evenings I sit and glance through it.
Working as I do with spreadsheets every day, I can appreciate the use of them for analytical purposes, but..........
... and if you do use the spreadsheet, how do you get on when the instructor or owner you want to rent from wants to check out your history - do you fire up a laptop? or are they really happy to look at a binder with a laserjet printout?
Mine has stamps of approvals/revalidations etc and on wet winter evenings I sit and glance through it.
Working as I do with spreadsheets every day, I can appreciate the use of them for analytical purposes, but..........
... and if you do use the spreadsheet, how do you get on when the instructor or owner you want to rent from wants to check out your history - do you fire up a laptop? or are they really happy to look at a binder with a laserjet printout?
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
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From: UK
The CAA FCL division are quite happy with a printout of an electronic logbook -- LASORS A17 refers. Everyone else to whom I've ever had to show my logbook has been just as happy with a printout.
The three reasons I do so are:
1) Our aircraft hours are compiled into a spreadsheet. Using an electronic logbook allows a shared format and saves transcribing the same info twice.
2) It's easier to backup an electronic document on a regular basis than a paper logbook.
3) No need to mess around with registered post etc. for sending it around. The recipient just keeps the printout.
Can anyone explain why they would prefer to keep their flight records in an Excel spreadsheet over a manual, and easily transportable logbook?
1) Our aircraft hours are compiled into a spreadsheet. Using an electronic logbook allows a shared format and saves transcribing the same info twice.
2) It's easier to backup an electronic document on a regular basis than a paper logbook.
3) No need to mess around with registered post etc. for sending it around. The recipient just keeps the printout.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11
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From: UK
Many thanks for the replies.
Think I'll stick with using the spreadsheet only.
I find the current pooleys JAR layout a right pain to fill out - I fly commercially so have quite a few sectors to log - reminds me of doing lines at school...ah those were the days.
Plus the spreadsheet is great for extracting data - how many trips to X, how many hours flying with Y etc. etc.
Once again, thanks for the replies.
4Ohm
Think I'll stick with using the spreadsheet only.
I find the current pooleys JAR layout a right pain to fill out - I fly commercially so have quite a few sectors to log - reminds me of doing lines at school...ah those were the days.
Plus the spreadsheet is great for extracting data - how many trips to X, how many hours flying with Y etc. etc.
Once again, thanks for the replies.
4Ohm
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 265
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From: Belgium
Just a thought ...
If the logbook has to be countersigned by another pilot or an instructor/examiner, how do you do it for an electronic format.
Presumably, you can make a print out, and ask him/her to sign that - but it can't be recorded electronically - and you still have to keep the signed printed copy as proof for the powers-that-be.
Or am I missing something?
GB
If the logbook has to be countersigned by another pilot or an instructor/examiner, how do you do it for an electronic format.
Presumably, you can make a print out, and ask him/her to sign that - but it can't be recorded electronically - and you still have to keep the signed printed copy as proof for the powers-that-be.
Or am I missing something?
GB
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 874
Likes: 13
From: South East.
Logbook.
40hm.
If you're operating commercially, why bother to log each separate sector ?
Why not enter each days work on a single line ? eg. LHR - GLA - LHR - PMI - LHR.
Groundbound.
My thoughts too.
As an X, how can I properly endorse, on a logbook, checkrides, Skills Tests, renewals and the like ?
Perhaps the licence entries are now considered sufficient.
Although we can't stop progress, I don't think I'll ever get my head around decimal minutes anyway !!!
Sleeve.
If you're operating commercially, why bother to log each separate sector ?
Why not enter each days work on a single line ? eg. LHR - GLA - LHR - PMI - LHR.
Groundbound.
My thoughts too.
As an X, how can I properly endorse, on a logbook, checkrides, Skills Tests, renewals and the like ?
Perhaps the licence entries are now considered sufficient.
Although we can't stop progress, I don't think I'll ever get my head around decimal minutes anyway !!!
Sleeve.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,579
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
No - sorry try as I might, I just don't get this as being progress.
I've lost more data on PCs backed up on floppies and CD-Roms than I care to remember. In all cases I've gone back to the paper records to get the data back.
Each PC I've just over the past 20+ years used a different means of storage and backup- I've a lot of data on 5.25" floppies I can't now read. Same with tape drives etc. Coupled to that, the multiple hard drive failures I've had over the years
In my view stick to the manual logbook -
I've lost more data on PCs backed up on floppies and CD-Roms than I care to remember. In all cases I've gone back to the paper records to get the data back.
Each PC I've just over the past 20+ years used a different means of storage and backup- I've a lot of data on 5.25" floppies I can't now read. Same with tape drives etc. Coupled to that, the multiple hard drive failures I've had over the years
In my view stick to the manual logbook -
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30
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From: London
Article 129(1) of the ANO defines a personal flying log book as something that it is not necessarily a book at all:
‘Log book’ in the case of ... [a] personal flying log book, includes a record kept either in a book, or by any other means approved by the CAA in the particular case;
Depending on what you take "include" to mean, this inclusive definition might not proscribe any form of log book at all. It simply states that two acceptable implementations are (i) books and (ii) CAA-approved means.
‘Log book’ in the case of ... [a] personal flying log book, includes a record kept either in a book, or by any other means approved by the CAA in the particular case;
Depending on what you take "include" to mean, this inclusive definition might not proscribe any form of log book at all. It simply states that two acceptable implementations are (i) books and (ii) CAA-approved means.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,579
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Very true.
A friend said to me the other day that he only ever used electronic gadgetry these days as it was quick neat and easy to interrogate and there was nothing a book could do that he couldn't.
Another friend took out his little (paper) notebook and threw it on the floor, saying bet you can't do that!!
My view remains that a manually entered paper-based logbook is a much more personal and personalised document and I would never consider an Excel spreadsheet output in the same way.
I would certainly never accept one from an unknown pilot wanting to join our group - still, that's luddite for you!
A friend said to me the other day that he only ever used electronic gadgetry these days as it was quick neat and easy to interrogate and there was nothing a book could do that he couldn't.
Another friend took out his little (paper) notebook and threw it on the floor, saying bet you can't do that!!
My view remains that a manually entered paper-based logbook is a much more personal and personalised document and I would never consider an Excel spreadsheet output in the same way.
I would certainly never accept one from an unknown pilot wanting to join our group - still, that's luddite for you!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
I agree with robin... I have a personal logbook with stamps of fields I've flown to (can't put that in a spread sheet), names of passengers that went with me, etc. I additionally put my flights in an excel spreadsheet... aids the mathematics heehee. So, my paper log book is with me on all flights, the spread sheet is kept at home, with occasional back ups.
The personal log book is something you look back on when you stop flying... a spread sheet is just not so nostalgic
If I read our JAR-FCL regs right, a personal log book is necessary.. only in commercial operations can exceptions be made. Have to look it up again...
We should do a poll....
I vote for both: personal log book with spread sheet as back up
Westy
The personal log book is something you look back on when you stop flying... a spread sheet is just not so nostalgic
If I read our JAR-FCL regs right, a personal log book is necessary.. only in commercial operations can exceptions be made. Have to look it up again...
We should do a poll....
I vote for both: personal log book with spread sheet as back up
Westy
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: England
Oh no! Please, please, please, not another poll clogging up pprune.
I can't imagine not having "proper" logbooks to fall back on, but I find my Excel version useful so that I can just send printouts to the CAA and don't have to risk my "proper" logbooks in the post. I agree that having to sign every page of the printout is tedious, but I'm happy to do it to keep my logbooks safe from the post office's version of a black hole.
I can't imagine not having "proper" logbooks to fall back on, but I find my Excel version useful so that I can just send printouts to the CAA and don't have to risk my "proper" logbooks in the post. I agree that having to sign every page of the printout is tedious, but I'm happy to do it to keep my logbooks safe from the post office's version of a black hole.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
I'd echo the comment on Excel. A database program it and when used as one the potential for screw-ups is high.
A proper database consists of records which are comprised of fields. In your logbook each line is a record (of a flight) and each item written on the line is a field. A proper database keeps the fields together in records.
Try highlighting a column on your spreadsheet and then using data/sort on it. Bingo! all of the fields in that column now belong to the wrong records. Easy to do and practically impossible to undo unless you realise immediately and click the undo button.
A proper database consists of records which are comprised of fields. In your logbook each line is a record (of a flight) and each item written on the line is a field. A proper database keeps the fields together in records.
Try highlighting a column on your spreadsheet and then using data/sort on it. Bingo! all of the fields in that column now belong to the wrong records. Easy to do and practically impossible to undo unless you realise immediately and click the undo button.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,579
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Flying Geek
I'd echo the issues with the use of Excel, in particular, and am an advocate for well-structured databases.
My issue, as it has always been, is that electronic media is useful but has had a short history. It hasn't had time to prove itself over decades of use, and given the radical changes in the past 10-20 years in IT, I would be careful about over-reliance on any IT system still being available or usable in a year's time.
My long-time email account was scrapped with a month's notice last year because of a merger of companies. My favourite weather forecasting service was suspended last year and there are many other examples - look at the number of 'dead' links around on the web. These are due to either financial pressures or because the developers get bored and wander off elesewhere.
Pilotlog may well become one of them in due course.
Conversely, I had hours of fun looking through a wartime pilot's logbook written in neat handwriting and telling stories of great courage. To see that in an electronic output is just not the same.
So - call me a luddite, but for me it is paper-based everytime.
I'd echo the issues with the use of Excel, in particular, and am an advocate for well-structured databases.
My issue, as it has always been, is that electronic media is useful but has had a short history. It hasn't had time to prove itself over decades of use, and given the radical changes in the past 10-20 years in IT, I would be careful about over-reliance on any IT system still being available or usable in a year's time.
My long-time email account was scrapped with a month's notice last year because of a merger of companies. My favourite weather forecasting service was suspended last year and there are many other examples - look at the number of 'dead' links around on the web. These are due to either financial pressures or because the developers get bored and wander off elesewhere.
Pilotlog may well become one of them in due course.
Conversely, I had hours of fun looking through a wartime pilot's logbook written in neat handwriting and telling stories of great courage. To see that in an electronic output is just not the same.
So - call me a luddite, but for me it is paper-based everytime.
Red On, Green On
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,490
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From: Between the woods and the water
back up procedures
How many of those using PC-based (not web-based) log-books do a back up with an off-site copy?
I back up my really essential data onto two CDs - and keep one in each car.
I back up my really essential data onto two CDs - and keep one in each car.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 54
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From: Nowhere in particular
Just quickly... on backups etc - I had an Excel file that I was using for a logbook (backup only - the physical 'book' is still the primary one) on my laptop... which got stolen.
No, the file wasn't backed up anywhere else.
No, the file wasn't backed up anywhere else.
