Threads about fatalities (was Light Aircraft Down, Today at ...)
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Threads about fatalities (was Light Aircraft Down, Today at ...)
First of all, if this post upsets friends or family of the people who died, I apologise. The following is not about that tragedy: it picks up the general debate on whether it's a good idea for forums like this to discuss specific recent fatalities.
There but for the grace of God go I. And if I die flying:
1. Condolences from people who don't know me will not help me or my loved ones. In fact, they might even cause offence.
2. I would want other pilots to learn from my accident. An informed and comprehensive investigation into what happened might help. Incomplete accounts or speculation will not (and may hinder the investigation). Discussing possible causes without adequate information and analysis does not necessarily save lives – if we're trying to navigate to a place called "safety" what's more helpful: no chart, or a wrong one?
3. There are official protocols for the public identification of accident victims, to prevent the next of kin hearing of their loved one's death through the media. I looked at the original thread, of course, in case it was someone I knew. Natural human tendency. But I would want my loved ones to hear of my death from a friend, club member or the authorities, not to read it on the net. In my experience, if you do know someone who's died, you will hear soon enough, believe me.
PPRUNE Towers suggested that threads about fatalities change pilots' behaviour, while accident reports months later do not do so. I'm not convinced. At the weekend I made a safe decision because of a report I must have read 14 years ago.
Now, a thread on WHAT HAS MADE YOU CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOUR? would be interesting...
If you followed the original thread, you'll have gathered I'm with Monocock and Genghis on this one. In the public interest, or merely of interest to the public?
Birdwatcher
There but for the grace of God go I. And if I die flying:
1. Condolences from people who don't know me will not help me or my loved ones. In fact, they might even cause offence.
2. I would want other pilots to learn from my accident. An informed and comprehensive investigation into what happened might help. Incomplete accounts or speculation will not (and may hinder the investigation). Discussing possible causes without adequate information and analysis does not necessarily save lives – if we're trying to navigate to a place called "safety" what's more helpful: no chart, or a wrong one?
3. There are official protocols for the public identification of accident victims, to prevent the next of kin hearing of their loved one's death through the media. I looked at the original thread, of course, in case it was someone I knew. Natural human tendency. But I would want my loved ones to hear of my death from a friend, club member or the authorities, not to read it on the net. In my experience, if you do know someone who's died, you will hear soon enough, believe me.
PPRUNE Towers suggested that threads about fatalities change pilots' behaviour, while accident reports months later do not do so. I'm not convinced. At the weekend I made a safe decision because of a report I must have read 14 years ago.
Now, a thread on WHAT HAS MADE YOU CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOUR? would be interesting...
If you followed the original thread, you'll have gathered I'm with Monocock and Genghis on this one. In the public interest, or merely of interest to the public?
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Two rules from my point of view regarding threads reporting incidents.
1). No names until they have been released publicly,and,
2) No wild speculation about what happened.
The last year or so has seen a marked attempt at people avoiding this which I am pleased about. Unfortunately, incidents do happen and people will report them on public forums like this but it is the way they are reported, and that is improving, that concerns most of us.
1). No names until they have been released publicly,and,
2) No wild speculation about what happened.
The last year or so has seen a marked attempt at people avoiding this which I am pleased about. Unfortunately, incidents do happen and people will report them on public forums like this but it is the way they are reported, and that is improving, that concerns most of us.
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I should like to start with the fact that, dispite us flying a fleet of globally interchangable aircraft, only domestic incidents are reported. This means, if it wasn't for PPruNe, we would only be aware of those light aeroplane incidents within the scope of our local media.
wrt: specualtion on PPruNe. puhlease, If you are silly enough to be lead astray, perhaps you shouldnt be holding an air crew lisence. What we say on here is in no way going to influence anyone. hello?
"Discussing possible causes without adequate information and analysis does not necessarily save lives "
Discussion relating to causes gives us a focal point but leaves the scope as wide open as possible. It's a way for us to discuss and reflect on similar situations weve been in during past flights. Whilst this may not nessicarily save lives, it can save lives
wrt: families finding about next of kin on PPruNe. Exactly how many incidents have there been where they found about their deaths here? Authorities deal pretty quickly with that sort of thing and if they dont get to 'the relatives' before PPruNe does, might that not say something about their (the relatives) priorities?
I made a decision on the weekend. It was a decision based on 75 years of aviation. To one, the decision would be considered rather arbitrary but it beats your 14 years hands down. The point is, lessons can be learnt from 14 year old reports, they can also be learnt from PPruNe threads that are minutes old.
I would like to think if I ever came to grief in an aeroplane, my thread would last for pages and pages, fake condolences et al.
wrt: specualtion on PPruNe. puhlease, If you are silly enough to be lead astray, perhaps you shouldnt be holding an air crew lisence. What we say on here is in no way going to influence anyone. hello?
"Discussing possible causes without adequate information and analysis does not necessarily save lives "
Discussion relating to causes gives us a focal point but leaves the scope as wide open as possible. It's a way for us to discuss and reflect on similar situations weve been in during past flights. Whilst this may not nessicarily save lives, it can save lives
wrt: families finding about next of kin on PPruNe. Exactly how many incidents have there been where they found about their deaths here? Authorities deal pretty quickly with that sort of thing and if they dont get to 'the relatives' before PPruNe does, might that not say something about their (the relatives) priorities?
I made a decision on the weekend. It was a decision based on 75 years of aviation. To one, the decision would be considered rather arbitrary but it beats your 14 years hands down. The point is, lessons can be learnt from 14 year old reports, they can also be learnt from PPruNe threads that are minutes old.
I would like to think if I ever came to grief in an aeroplane, my thread would last for pages and pages, fake condolences et al.
Last edited by MikeKnight; 31st Mar 2005 at 12:26.
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PPRUNE Towers suggested that threads about fatalities change pilots' behaviour, while accident reports months later do not do so. I'm not convinced. At the weekend I made a safe decision because of a report I must have read 14 years ago.
However, there are number of accident reports that have stuck in my head and non more so than an incident where the pilot failed to ensure his seat was locked down properly. Do I check the mechanism before every flight - yes I do. Is this disproportionate response given what is more likely to go wrong - possibly.
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I think the PpruNe policy is well thought out and spot on.
On the condolences issue, I think it is individual choice. I have no problem with it at all. Please remember if you do not like this sort of thing, you do not have to even open it.
Rod1
On the condolences issue, I think it is individual choice. I have no problem with it at all. Please remember if you do not like this sort of thing, you do not have to even open it.
Rod1
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I do not feel that Genghis' post adds anything, other than to show that this forum is not unique in discussing air accidents.
Where the whole thing gets interesting is when we consider not what we post here, as generally the posts are constructive and unassuming, but what the press publish.
As a topical example: Do NOT read if connected with the Staffs incident and likely to be influenced by a press report, published on the internet
If there is genuine concern that internet postings about aviation incidents can influence the outcome of AAIB reports (and I seriously doubt there is), then surely banning press reports is the first step.
As Timothy said elsewhere, if he had discussed his TBM700 incident, it is possible that it may have been read by the French pilot that did exactly the same shortly afterwards, preventing the terrible ensuing incident at Oxford.
Lets stop the supposition and guessing (there has been none, anyway), but by all means discuss incidents and lets all learn, or at least remind ourselves that we must always be thinking ahead when flying.
Where the whole thing gets interesting is when we consider not what we post here, as generally the posts are constructive and unassuming, but what the press publish.
As a topical example: Do NOT read if connected with the Staffs incident and likely to be influenced by a press report, published on the internet
If there is genuine concern that internet postings about aviation incidents can influence the outcome of AAIB reports (and I seriously doubt there is), then surely banning press reports is the first step.
As Timothy said elsewhere, if he had discussed his TBM700 incident, it is possible that it may have been read by the French pilot that did exactly the same shortly afterwards, preventing the terrible ensuing incident at Oxford.
Lets stop the supposition and guessing (there has been none, anyway), but by all means discuss incidents and lets all learn, or at least remind ourselves that we must always be thinking ahead when flying.
I do not feel that Genghis' post adds anything, other than to show that this forum is not unique in discussing air accidents.
G
