Multi-engine and IMC Rating
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Loughborough Uni
Multi-engine and IMC Rating
Hey all,
Just a quick question
Sometime this year I intend to get my multiengine rating and I'm wondering whether or not any extra training is needed to use my IMC rating in twins. My understanding is that the IMC rating (like the night qualification) is valid in any aircraft which you are intitled to fly, so this would mean no training is required. But I also understand that there is a difference between a IR on single engined and multiengined aircraft and it seems logical that certain instrument proceedures may become very complicated if required to fly asymmetric.
So firstly I'd like to know what the law says?
And secondly if the law says that no training is needed would anyone recommend extra training before attempting to fly in IMC?
Cheers
Owen Mc
Just a quick question
Sometime this year I intend to get my multiengine rating and I'm wondering whether or not any extra training is needed to use my IMC rating in twins. My understanding is that the IMC rating (like the night qualification) is valid in any aircraft which you are intitled to fly, so this would mean no training is required. But I also understand that there is a difference between a IR on single engined and multiengined aircraft and it seems logical that certain instrument proceedures may become very complicated if required to fly asymmetric.
So firstly I'd like to know what the law says?
And secondly if the law says that no training is needed would anyone recommend extra training before attempting to fly in IMC?
Cheers
Owen Mc
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: TL487591
Slightly unclear, this one.
Nothing in the ANO Schedule B says that you are required to undergo any particular certification before you can use your IMC rating in a multi-engined aircraft.
LASORS, which is not the law, says that you should undergo certain specific training on twins before being tested for an IMC rating in a twin.
Where an IMC rating is already held, having been tested in a SEP there appears to be nothing in law to prevent you from exercising those privileges in an MEP.
Should you though? ..... IMHO, absolutely not. Get some training.
Nothing in the ANO Schedule B says that you are required to undergo any particular certification before you can use your IMC rating in a multi-engined aircraft.
LASORS, which is not the law, says that you should undergo certain specific training on twins before being tested for an IMC rating in a twin.
Where an IMC rating is already held, having been tested in a SEP there appears to be nothing in law to prevent you from exercising those privileges in an MEP.
Should you though? ..... IMHO, absolutely not. Get some training.
Moving On
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 211
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From: UK
Lasors states that if you wish to be tested in a twin you must be trained so that in a simluated IMC you can maintain stable flight after an engine failure at climb power then climb at the recommended speed and carry out normal fligth manouevres under assymmetric conditions.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF
As you are already a holder of an IMC rating I believe you are required to complete your next IMC renewal in a twin. Even if it is not a requirement it is certainly highly advisable to undertake some IMC M/E training before exercising the priviledges of it in a twin.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF
As you are already a holder of an IMC rating I believe you are required to complete your next IMC renewal in a twin. Even if it is not a requirement it is certainly highly advisable to undertake some IMC M/E training before exercising the priviledges of it in a twin.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 62
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From: Loughborough Uni
Cheers,
Pretty much confirmed what I thought, no legal requirement but certainly a good idea to get some training. I think i'll budget for it over the summer, 6-8 hours for MEP course and then 2-3 hours asymmetric IMC. And probably a load of practice IMC with an observer or two before disappearing off into clouds solo.
All that I've read about single pilot, multi engine flying in IMC has made it sound like quite a challenge, anyone with experiance care to comment? i'd like to know what i'm in for
Once again, thanks all.
Owen Mc
P.S. Oscar Juliet do I know you?
I obviously do, but just remind me
Pretty much confirmed what I thought, no legal requirement but certainly a good idea to get some training. I think i'll budget for it over the summer, 6-8 hours for MEP course and then 2-3 hours asymmetric IMC. And probably a load of practice IMC with an observer or two before disappearing off into clouds solo.
All that I've read about single pilot, multi engine flying in IMC has made it sound like quite a challenge, anyone with experiance care to comment? i'd like to know what i'm in for
Once again, thanks all.
Owen Mc
P.S. Oscar Juliet do I know you?
I obviously do, but just remind me
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Anywhere
All that I've read about single pilot, multi engine flying in IMC has made it sound like quite a challenge, anyone with experiance care to comment? i'd like to know what i'm in for
1) Plan ahead - especially in the UK where you won't have access to the airways system. You want to do as much on the ground as possible before you set foot near the aircraft
2) Think ahead - If you've planned the route and there's no surprises then you want to start thinking about your arrival as soon as you settle in the cruise.
Descent planning, speed reductions (I don't know what you fly now, but I suspect the operating speed range that you're used to may be doubled or possibly trebled on a twin), type of approach. If you're thinking about that 10 miles from the airfield then you've left it too late.
It's fun, but it's also a discipline. Approach it in that way and you'll enjoy getting it right every time.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
The extra speed - and often more complicated systems - makes single pilot light twin IFR (or IMC, no great difference to my mind) a very high workload. It's often said that SP IFR is one of the highest workloads in aviation.
Still, as long as they both keep turning it's not much more difficult than doing the same in a high performance single eg C210 or A36. It's when they don't both keep turning that the twin becomes a very real problem that **must** have a trained & recent pilot at the controls.
If you value your life & those of your passengers don't fly a light twin - expecially in IMC or at night - without some training first, whether or not it's mandated by the CAA.
Still, as long as they both keep turning it's not much more difficult than doing the same in a high performance single eg C210 or A36. It's when they don't both keep turning that the twin becomes a very real problem that **must** have a trained & recent pilot at the controls.
If you value your life & those of your passengers don't fly a light twin - expecially in IMC or at night - without some training first, whether or not it's mandated by the CAA.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
I agree 100% with 2D.
I think there's some wording in LASORs that is causing confusion:
But there's no requirement for any IMC flight test on an MEP in order to exercise the privileges on an MEP.
I think there's some wording in LASORs that is causing confusion:
E 3.5 A revalidation Flight Test that is a first multi-engine test must include [Flight With Asymmetric Power]
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Somewhere west of Laramie
Euphemisn of the Day: "2-3 hours of assymetric IFR"
Owen,
I don't think the FAA has any prohibition regarding ME after IR either, but I believe a check ride is required to exercise the privilege.
I never could understand why one would do his/her instrument training in a single then slap a few hours of multiengine time on top of that and feel comfortable smashing off into IMC in a twin. Seems like a death wish. Maybe not - I do tend to catastrophize some.
I was extremely fortunate in that, after passing the private pilot exam (Cherokee 140 - Old Faithful), I was able to hitch rides in an Aztec - scheduled freight flight from CLE to Detroit Metro and back. Every flight was IFR at night, over the lake. The pilot assigned to that trip was a good friend and ATP/CFII so I was able to log a couple hundred hours of multi/inst instruction time without cost. Well, not completely without cost - I had to buy him alot of beers after the flights.
The first time I ever flew a twin in daylight was for the ME checkride (crappy touchdown but I passed). So all of my inst. training and inst. flight test was in the Aztec. From a competency/safety standpoint, I can't imagine one wanting to do it any other way.
Try a SE go-around in a light twin IFR at night - with snow.
Guaranteed you will have your hands (and shorts) full the first few times. Good Luck.
I don't think the FAA has any prohibition regarding ME after IR either, but I believe a check ride is required to exercise the privilege.
I never could understand why one would do his/her instrument training in a single then slap a few hours of multiengine time on top of that and feel comfortable smashing off into IMC in a twin. Seems like a death wish. Maybe not - I do tend to catastrophize some.
I was extremely fortunate in that, after passing the private pilot exam (Cherokee 140 - Old Faithful), I was able to hitch rides in an Aztec - scheduled freight flight from CLE to Detroit Metro and back. Every flight was IFR at night, over the lake. The pilot assigned to that trip was a good friend and ATP/CFII so I was able to log a couple hundred hours of multi/inst instruction time without cost. Well, not completely without cost - I had to buy him alot of beers after the flights.
The first time I ever flew a twin in daylight was for the ME checkride (crappy touchdown but I passed). So all of my inst. training and inst. flight test was in the Aztec. From a competency/safety standpoint, I can't imagine one wanting to do it any other way.Try a SE go-around in a light twin IFR at night - with snow.
Guaranteed you will have your hands (and shorts) full the first few times. Good Luck.
Joined: Dec 1998
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
ASFAIK the US *does* have restrictions w.r.t. single/multi & an IR. A 'check ride' is a flight test.
Do an instrument check ride in a single & you will only be able to fly singles under IFR. Do the check ride in a multi & your IR will cover both singles & multis. No different to the UK (ignoring the JAR multi pilot vs single pilot restrictions)
Do an instrument check ride in a single & you will only be able to fly singles under IFR. Do the check ride in a multi & your IR will cover both singles & multis. No different to the UK (ignoring the JAR multi pilot vs single pilot restrictions)
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Somewhere west of Laramie
Tinstaafl,
Thx for clarifying my comment. This may be further evidence of the ongoing language barrier between the UK and US. Perhaps "Check Ride" ought to be today's euphemism. Certainly every check ride I had was a flight test. It all comes down to being certified as competent in the machine one intends to operate.
Thx for clarifying my comment. This may be further evidence of the ongoing language barrier between the UK and US. Perhaps "Check Ride" ought to be today's euphemism. Certainly every check ride I had was a flight test. It all comes down to being certified as competent in the machine one intends to operate.
