Use (abuse!) of strobes
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Somerset England
Dusty
you said "The ICAO Rules of the Air state that at night, aircraft on an apron should have their nav lights on at all times"
might that not run the batteries down when parked overnight
are you sure you haven't missed something out there, my quotes were directed at operations during daylight hours.
Arrived at Exeter this morning during night hours our aircraft was on the apron, didn't have its nav lights on though! were we legal?
you said "The ICAO Rules of the Air state that at night, aircraft on an apron should have their nav lights on at all times"
might that not run the batteries down when parked overnight
are you sure you haven't missed something out there, my quotes were directed at operations during daylight hours.
Arrived at Exeter this morning during night hours our aircraft was on the apron, didn't have its nav lights on though! were we legal?
Last edited by Flying Farmer; 22nd December 2004 at 09:38.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Somerset England
Exactly I in the sky, use them sensibly.
I cannot see the problem here, the ANO says an anti collision beacon must be on if fitted, no probs so far. What do you guys and gals do if either a red or white anti collision beacon is not fitted, three types I fly, larger piston twins, are like this. High intensity strobes off till on the active just leaves the position/nav lights whilst engines running and during the taxi phase.
Any one with experience in aircraft kitted out in this way care to comment?
I cannot see the problem here, the ANO says an anti collision beacon must be on if fitted, no probs so far. What do you guys and gals do if either a red or white anti collision beacon is not fitted, three types I fly, larger piston twins, are like this. High intensity strobes off till on the active just leaves the position/nav lights whilst engines running and during the taxi phase.
Any one with experience in aircraft kitted out in this way care to comment?
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
Maybe I am stupid, but can anyone here explain to me what possible safety factor there is in having nav lights on during daylight hours, especially when there is bright sunlight?
If your eyesight is so poor that you can not see something as big as an airplane in broad daylight is there some little known function of nav lights that makes them visiable to the blind?
Chuck E.
If your eyesight is so poor that you can not see something as big as an airplane in broad daylight is there some little known function of nav lights that makes them visiable to the blind?
Chuck E.
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Some confusion abounds. Kolibear's original comment that Chuck alluded to was about strobes, not navs! The argument has nothing to do with poor eyesight but everything to do with increase the chances of being seen earlier. It is not possible to consider the veritible myriad of daylight conditions and say that strobes make no difference to visibility.
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Ready to Depart
The argument has nothing to do with poor eyesight but everything to do with increase the chances of being seen earlier.
I've spent £40k on my ATPL, and I'd be very pissed off if I lost my Class 1 (or 2) medical because of burnt retinas. I might not be able to see to find you, but my guide dog will be trained to hunt you down and kill you instead
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: UK
Visibility
I very recently had a (fairly) near miss while taxiing and parking up to do the power up checks.
Another aircraft had taxied out a few mins before us, but as I rolled up the very dark (and very wide taxiway) only at the last minute did I spot the left nav light of the other aircraft. He had turned into wind to do his checks, but there was no landing light, no strobes, no beacon only one little red light.
Could have been embarrassing had I continued and planted my wing in his prop.
Surely the whole point is to make yourself visible to prevent such collisions (both on the ground and in the air)?
GQ
Another aircraft had taxied out a few mins before us, but as I rolled up the very dark (and very wide taxiway) only at the last minute did I spot the left nav light of the other aircraft. He had turned into wind to do his checks, but there was no landing light, no strobes, no beacon only one little red light.
Could have been embarrassing had I continued and planted my wing in his prop.
Surely the whole point is to make yourself visible to prevent such collisions (both on the ground and in the air)?
GQ
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: In a good pub (I wish!)
Yes GQ, the point is to make yourself visible, but to also THINK before you do or do not switch on lights, strobes, beacons etc.
As so many have said, the strobes can be dangerously bright. Also, just like the boy racers with their fog lights on, you may be making your own aeroplane/car brighter, but you then spoil the overall picture by decreasing the chance to see beyond you and see what other aeroplanes/cars etc are out there.
In general leave strobes off unless you have a very good reason to put them on. I.E. when lining up to take off or when crossing the active. If you plan to put them on at other times consider the effect on others, and turn them off again.
Cheers and happy thoughtful flying
As so many have said, the strobes can be dangerously bright. Also, just like the boy racers with their fog lights on, you may be making your own aeroplane/car brighter, but you then spoil the overall picture by decreasing the chance to see beyond you and see what other aeroplanes/cars etc are out there.
In general leave strobes off unless you have a very good reason to put them on. I.E. when lining up to take off or when crossing the active. If you plan to put them on at other times consider the effect on others, and turn them off again.
Cheers and happy thoughtful flying
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Anywhere
GQ
I'm guessing it was at your base airfield, and the other aircraft was a similar type to the one you were flying?
In which case strobes would have dazzled - but he should have had his landing lamp (which on that type doubles as a taxy lamp) switched on.
Another aircraft had taxied out a few mins before us, but as I rolled up the very dark (and very wide taxiway) only at the last minute did I spot the left nav light of the other aircraft. He had turned into wind to do his checks, but there was no landing light, no strobes, no beacon only one little red light.
In which case strobes would have dazzled - but he should have had his landing lamp (which on that type doubles as a taxy lamp) switched on.
Joined: May 2001
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From: A very Dark Place
I am surprised noone has mentioned the veritable POH... at least for those of you who fly Cessnas.
In a POH I have by Mr Cessna, it says, in bold type, and preceded by a triangle with an exclamation mark in it:
WARNING
Strobe lights should be turned off when taxying. Ground operation of the high intensity anti-collision lights can be of considerable annoyance to ground personnel and other pilots. .......................
In the front of the POH, a WARNING is described as 'an operating procedure, technique, or maintenance practice which may result in personal injury or loss of life if not carefully followed.
It seems clear to me that if you have a ground accident involving another aeroplane when you have your strobes on, it is more than likely that the other pilot will blame your strobes somewhere along the line. The insurers are not going to look too kindly on your use of aforesaid lights if the POH says otherwise. In fact, not complying with the instructions in a POH would probably be construed as negligence and you would end up personally liable.
Worse still, someone walks into your aeroplane and a witness tells the relatives, and their lawyers, that you had your strobes on.
Not a bad idea to check your POH and see if it has any instruction like this in relation to strobes!!
In a POH I have by Mr Cessna, it says, in bold type, and preceded by a triangle with an exclamation mark in it:
WARNING
Strobe lights should be turned off when taxying. Ground operation of the high intensity anti-collision lights can be of considerable annoyance to ground personnel and other pilots. .......................
In the front of the POH, a WARNING is described as 'an operating procedure, technique, or maintenance practice which may result in personal injury or loss of life if not carefully followed.
It seems clear to me that if you have a ground accident involving another aeroplane when you have your strobes on, it is more than likely that the other pilot will blame your strobes somewhere along the line. The insurers are not going to look too kindly on your use of aforesaid lights if the POH says otherwise. In fact, not complying with the instructions in a POH would probably be construed as negligence and you would end up personally liable.
Worse still, someone walks into your aeroplane and a witness tells the relatives, and their lawyers, that you had your strobes on.
Not a bad idea to check your POH and see if it has any instruction like this in relation to strobes!!
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Up there somewhere
My checklist has strobe beacon 'on' before engine start!
On the aircraft type i have recently started flying, there is the 'red' strobe for engine start, taxy etc. and you switch it to white on pre-take off cx.
I think it's very sensible to fly with strobes on all the time as often it is the first thing you see especially with white a/c which can be particularly hard to spot sometimes!
On the aircraft type i have recently started flying, there is the 'red' strobe for engine start, taxy etc. and you switch it to white on pre-take off cx.
I think it's very sensible to fly with strobes on all the time as often it is the first thing you see especially with white a/c which can be particularly hard to spot sometimes!
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Ready to Depart
There is a subtle difference between a Beacon and a HI Strobe. Most aircraft have a rotating (low intensity) red beacon. Electronic flashing lights (low intensity strobes) are lighter, so have begun replacing the old rotating beacons.
Another thought for y'all to consider. The venerable bullgod has red and white strobes. The SOPs for ground ops are RED only, night ops RED only, and formation flying RED only on all but the trailing aircraft. I wonder why?
Another thought for y'all to consider. The venerable bullgod has red and white strobes. The SOPs for ground ops are RED only, night ops RED only, and formation flying RED only on all but the trailing aircraft. I wonder why?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Dusty,
The white HISL on the Bulldog (and other aircraft) was capable of damaging the eyes. I instructed on these aircraft (UAS & EFTS) for a while during the time when the HISLs were being fitted. A colleague of mine was grounded for a couple of days by the RAF doc after a careless student gave him a blast at short range, an examination showed his retina was temporarily damaged.
The white HISL on the Bulldog (and other aircraft) was capable of damaging the eyes. I instructed on these aircraft (UAS & EFTS) for a while during the time when the HISLs were being fitted. A colleague of mine was grounded for a couple of days by the RAF doc after a careless student gave him a blast at short range, an examination showed his retina was temporarily damaged.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Up there somewhere
Dusty_B
The beacon is a Hi-intenstiy white strobe.
IMHO, i would rather be seen and be able to see others. It's like driving - when it rains it gets darker yet so many people fail to put on their headlights.
The aircraft I'm flying at the moment has a switch to change strobes from red to white. Most sensible answer I have seen. I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying.
Replacing a bulb more often is a small price to pay for safety and peace of mind, especially with some of the dodgy aircraft colour schemes out there which are just impossible to see!
The beacon is a Hi-intenstiy white strobe.
IMHO, i would rather be seen and be able to see others. It's like driving - when it rains it gets darker yet so many people fail to put on their headlights.
The aircraft I'm flying at the moment has a switch to change strobes from red to white. Most sensible answer I have seen. I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying.
Replacing a bulb more often is a small price to pay for safety and peace of mind, especially with some of the dodgy aircraft colour schemes out there which are just impossible to see!
Last edited by Flik Roll; 29th December 2004 at 12:45.
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
Quote :
" I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying. "
Nav lights on an airplane in flight are impossible to see in broad daylight, unless you are flying very close to the airplane that has them on. If you can't see the airplane in broad daylight what good would nav lights be?
Do you drive your car with the horn blowing at all times?
Remember the other people can see your car long before they hear the horn.
Why wear out your nav lights for no increase in safety?
Chuck E.
" I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying. "
Nav lights on an airplane in flight are impossible to see in broad daylight, unless you are flying very close to the airplane that has them on. If you can't see the airplane in broad daylight what good would nav lights be?
Do you drive your car with the horn blowing at all times?
Remember the other people can see your car long before they hear the horn.
Why wear out your nav lights for no increase in safety?
Chuck E.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Up there somewhere
why...because often it helps, you have been informed that theres an aircraft in your 1o'clock, heading and height unknown, you can't see it but against a darker cloud the nav lights may stand out.
It's just sensible really. You don't have to fly with yours on if you don't want to. I always fly with mine on. Especially when it's part of the FRC's to fly with Navs, Landing Light and Strobes on. When flying GA I always stick my navs on especially if i'm in the circuit and going upside down
It's just sensible really. You don't have to fly with yours on if you don't want to. I always fly with mine on. Especially when it's part of the FRC's to fly with Navs, Landing Light and Strobes on. When flying GA I always stick my navs on especially if i'm in the circuit and going upside down
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
Help me out here flick roll. what are FRC's ?
There are just to many acronymns in aviation and I am not familiar with that one.
If you are going inverted in the circuit do you have a switch to reverse the red / green lights so the other traffic has a normal picture of what they are looking at?
"Sensible, " I guess is in the eye of the beholder, I use items like lights and pitot heats based on the necessity for same. For instance I do not see any need of pitot heat on a hot summer day, should I be climbing into possible freezing levels I use pitot heat predicated on need for same, in severe clear bright sunshine I save my nav light bulbs for when I may need them.
All that being said we all are free to configure our aircraft in any manner that is suitable to each of us.
Chuck E.
There are just to many acronymns in aviation and I am not familiar with that one.
If you are going inverted in the circuit do you have a switch to reverse the red / green lights so the other traffic has a normal picture of what they are looking at?
"Sensible, " I guess is in the eye of the beholder, I use items like lights and pitot heats based on the necessity for same. For instance I do not see any need of pitot heat on a hot summer day, should I be climbing into possible freezing levels I use pitot heat predicated on need for same, in severe clear bright sunshine I save my nav light bulbs for when I may need them.
All that being said we all are free to configure our aircraft in any manner that is suitable to each of us.
Chuck E.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Canada
What's a Check A ?
With respect to light usage the generally accepted large aircraft SOP is as follows
1) Nav lights on when ac has power
2) red fusalage beacon/stobe on before start
3) taxi light on as taxi starts
4) wing/tail white strobes on when entering runway
5) landing and recog lights on when cleared for takeoff
The process is reversed for landing. I brief this to all my students and then explain that I have slightly modified this protocol to address the realities of light aircraft.
Therefore I teach
1) Nav lights on at power up only at night
2) red beacon on prior to start
3) white strobes on when entering runway
4) landing light on when cleared for takeoff
I do not turn on nav lights during the day because they are so dim I do not feel they contribute anything and I do not turn on taxi/landing light on for the taxi because they cost lots and seem to have a life span measured in nanoseconds.
One of my pet peeves is the generally poor use of lights by GA aircraft at night. Usual sins are as follows
- taxing with strobes on at night
- not turning off landing light when passing head on, on taxiway
- not turning off landing light when at hold short line
- fogetting to turn on nav lights when flight starts in daylight but ends in darkness. To get around this problem which in the interest of fairness I have been guilty of, I teach my students that the cockpit light knob is always paired with the nav light switch. That is if you need to turn on the panel lights to see the instruments it is always time to turn on the nav lights. As a final note if the aircraft has a cowl mounted landing light it should never be on for the runup as the vibration will sibnificantly shorten bulb life.
With respect to light usage the generally accepted large aircraft SOP is as follows
1) Nav lights on when ac has power
2) red fusalage beacon/stobe on before start
3) taxi light on as taxi starts
4) wing/tail white strobes on when entering runway
5) landing and recog lights on when cleared for takeoff
The process is reversed for landing. I brief this to all my students and then explain that I have slightly modified this protocol to address the realities of light aircraft.
Therefore I teach
1) Nav lights on at power up only at night
2) red beacon on prior to start
3) white strobes on when entering runway
4) landing light on when cleared for takeoff
I do not turn on nav lights during the day because they are so dim I do not feel they contribute anything and I do not turn on taxi/landing light on for the taxi because they cost lots and seem to have a life span measured in nanoseconds.
One of my pet peeves is the generally poor use of lights by GA aircraft at night. Usual sins are as follows
- taxing with strobes on at night
- not turning off landing light when passing head on, on taxiway
- not turning off landing light when at hold short line
- fogetting to turn on nav lights when flight starts in daylight but ends in darkness. To get around this problem which in the interest of fairness I have been guilty of, I teach my students that the cockpit light knob is always paired with the nav light switch. That is if you need to turn on the panel lights to see the instruments it is always time to turn on the nav lights. As a final note if the aircraft has a cowl mounted landing light it should never be on for the runup as the vibration will sibnificantly shorten bulb life.