GPS Navigation software PC/PDA

[Ptkay]

Has any of you some experience in GPS navigation software for
PC or PDA. I am going to install some GPS navigation on my plane and found out, that a combination of HH PC or PDA + software + OEM GPS module gives the funcionality of "upper shelf" GPS units for half the price.

Have been testing NavGPS, and it looks great, terain awareness etc., but maybe there is something better on the market.

Any experience, suggestions, which software to use ?


PTKay

[IO540]

This one has been discussed here a lot. My view is that while one can get some great solutions running on a PDA, a PDA isn't rugged enough for use as one's primary GPS. I've played with quite a few.

They have touch screens, and what happens if you touch the screen accidentally? I've seen products where the thing goes off into some unwanted mode and you then have to get the stylus out and fiddle with it.

Another factor is screenbacklight. Most PDAs don't have auto dimming, which (or at least very easily accessible manual dimming) ir essential for day/night flight.

[Mak]

Ptkay,

I'm using a PocketFMS as a backup unit. Can't beat it on value for money: it is free (and so are the database updates!!! but you get better maps if you pay $50). I chose it after trying out a few demos of comercial software packages as I think it is generally superior even if I forget about the cost. It's also evolving and improvements are added quite frequently. So over time it will always be superior to any self-contained GPS unit. It works well with my iPaq2210 + Holux GR230 package.

Would I use it as a main means of navigation? Probably not but I avoid relying on GPS anyway and use it instead to ensure that my pilotage, dead-rec or VOR/NDB tracking are working out ok. I do like the nav bit of flying and moving-map GPS is too easy and takes the fun out of it. And I suspect it is too easy to become dependant on it to the point you can't find your way without it - sometime ago I met a reasonably experienced pilot who seemed unable to find the way from Elstree to Bovingdon and back without GPS!

In summary, as a backup handheld unit I think it can't be beaten.

Mak

[Fuji Abound]

I don’t entirely agree.

PDAs are a robust product and in my experience are every bit as reliable as traditional GPSs. I have used an iPAQ for sometime now very often combined with a Garmin 195. Neither has yet failed which is more than I can say of some of the panel mounted avionics.

That said, PDAs have relatively poor battery life and it is essential to run the PDA with the backlight on making matters worse. The same is true of the GPS be it a Bluetooth or a wired modelled. In short both units should be wired into the ships power if you want to be certain. Whilst I haven’t found the PDA has ever “frozen” the soft reset is easy to use and there is no reason for not doing so even in flight.

PDAs have several advantages. The screens are very clear, the unit exceptionally light so it can be yoked mounted with ease and often the user interface is very good. For example on the software I use a tap on the VOR, airport, or user reference point enables you to route direct as a new flight plan. I also like the ability to display in the same way the extended centre lines of runways to effectively give you a 2D ILS.

I have also been use PocketFMS for a while. The maps are excellent. IMO the user interface could be a little better but the software is improving all the time. I particularly like AnyWhere, however unfortunately the maps are somewhat out of date but the user interface excellent. It is a shame the best of both products is not available.

If you do decide to go this route it is also important to be aware that the software can either be stored on a flash card or within the PDAs built in memory. Unfortunately the built in memory on earlier PDAs is dependant on the PDAs battery not being exhausted and of course you can bet if you leave your PDA on the aircraft they will run down as they slowly discharge. Go for a new model or better still store the software on a flash card.

[chrisN]

I looked at considerable feedback from glider pilots who use PDA's a lot. The best ones for visibility seem to be not the latest generation but the iPAQ 38xx series - so I bought a 3850 and am quite satisfied with it. I use it with backlight on all the time. The internal battery is far too small for long flights, but there are various gismos to link it to a 12v source and step it down to 5v, one of which I use.

(In fact mine is linked to a PCEFIS, which gives a solid-state artificial horizon, and a GPS readout when coupled to a Garmin, all displayed on the PDA. Works for me. It is possible to switch off the PCEFIS and boot up nav software instead, still driving the PDA from the PCEFIS electrical source.)

Chris N.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote :

" but I avoid relying on GPS anyway and use it instead to ensure that my pilotage, dead-rec or VOR/NDB tracking are working out ok. I do like the nav bit of flying and moving-map GPS is too easy and takes the fun out of it. "

............................................

However there is the other side of this issue, and that is would you feel the same if you were not within receiving range of a VOR ? and as far as tracking using an ADF who in todays world uses an ADF for tracking when GPS is there for your use?

I just can not understand the reluctance of some pilots to use a modern reliable and extreemly accurate nav aid like GPS in favour of the stone age stuff like ADF, VOR and dead - rec.

Chuck E.

[shortstripper]

Most of my Nav over the years has been non nav-aid as most of my flying has been in PFA types with no electrikery.

So far (gulp!... "tempting fate") I've never actually got lost, although I have experienced the occassional "temporarily unsure of position" bit When I did an IMC I was pretty impressed with the VOR and rather less so of ADF but still thought they were OK ... (not that I ever put them to great use as I've not flown an IFR equipped a/c since).

GPS is something I really haven't got into. I did buy one of those little cheapo handhelds quite early on, but it kept losing signal so did nothing to instill much confidence. However, I've just got an Ipaq 1945 for work and I so wish to drag myself into the 21st century at last. So I'm in the same boat as ptkay in seeking info on the best way forward, so here's a couple of questions.

1. I've seen plenty of TomTom gps units for PDA's on ebay. The type with cable connections go for around £60 and the bluetooth ones £80-£90. Are these TomTom gps units any good? and other than having no cables are bluetooth ones any better? ... I'm thinking I can live with cables if power consumption is a lot less and advantages limited.

2. When it comes to memory map software, will any MM software designed for PDA's work? or do you have to buy it bundled with the correct maps? In other words if I buy the CAA charts for PDA do I have to buy dedicated MM software or will another cheaper ebay sourced one work?

Thanks for any answers

SS

[hekokimushi]

i think memory map would be best. as you can also purchased the CAA maps with the software as well as OS maps for road navigation.

works with laptop and PDA

[IO540]

TomTom is a great product. I never used to believe in GPS road navigation until I saw it. It is really great. Not relevant to aviation though.

Chuck is 100% right of course. It is silly to chuck out the best nav device known to man. By all means don't use it if you don't feel like using it (on a Private Flight one is legal if navigating by tossing a coin, 10deg left v. 10deg right) but one can't make an argument against GPS on technical grounds. Some of the original (10 year old) GPS receivers were indeed cr*p but that's not relevant these days.

I would avoid a bluetooth connection between the GPS receiver and the PDA. It does work a lot of the time but some combinations are not reliable. Especially if one powers the PDA down and powers it back up again, expecting the PDA to recover the protocol. For best reliability, get a GPS receiver with a USB or RS232 cable.

[shortstripper]

TomTom is a great product. I never used to believe in GPS road navigation until I saw it. It is really great. Not relevant to aviation though.

What does that mean? Can it not be used with memory map for aviation? When is a GPS not a GPS? Surely the TomTom reciever is no different to any other? or is it too slow for use in flying? If it's no good for aviation, what gps reciever would you recommend?

SS

[dublinpilot]

" but I avoid relying on GPS anyway and use it instead to ensure that my pilotage, dead-rec or VOR/NDB tracking are working out ok. I do like the nav bit of flying and moving-map GPS is too easy and takes the fun out of it. "

............................................

However there is the other side of this issue, and that is would you feel the same if you were not within receiving range of a VOR ? and as far as tracking using an ADF who in todays world uses an ADF for tracking when GPS is there for your use?

I just can not understand the reluctance of some pilots to use a modern reliable and extreemly accurate nav aid like GPS in favour of the stone age stuff like ADF, VOR and dead - rec.

Chuck E.

Chuck, I understand where you are comming from, but I think you might be being a little unfair to Mak with that comment.

I too plan each flight with a plog, headings, times etc, and use my GPS as a back up to this. Ie, when I think I should be somewhere, I try to confirm my position with regard to ground features, and then check with my gps, that I am correct.

In fairness, you have much more experience than most of us here. For many of us, we need to keep practicing our DR skills or we will lose them. You might ask why would we be botherd losing them if we have such a great things as GPS? Well, to put it simply, many of us fly with handheld gps's. I am one of them. I use a gps, connected to my pda, running pocket fms. Somethings I find that the gps will lose signal, and a quick movement of the antenna will fix it. However two occasions come to mind. One when the the pda crashed when I tried to change the flight plan, in flight, and one when for the first hour of the flight, it totally refused to pick up any satalites at all. Because I practice my dr stills, this wasn't a problem, and I still felt comfortable. However if I did not practice these skills, I imagine I would have been much more stressed.

You must remember that as a PPL without a IR nor IMC, I am forced to fly at relatively low levels most of the time, which severly restricts the range of the VOR's. It's not at all uncommon to be out of range of a VOR here, at 2000ft.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I love my gps to bits! I think it's the best piece of equipment that I ever bought, and would hate the idea of going flying without it. More than anything else I have, it reduces the workload and stress levels, and give me more time to enjoy the flight. But experience has thought me that it has failed me in the past, and it probably will again in the future. That's probably just the nature of hand held equipment. I want to make sure I have another system that I can rely on when that happens. That means I must practice my DR skills. For someone with as much experience as you do, you probably don't need to practice them......but for many of us who fly much less, we do.

dp

[englishal]

What does that mean?

Probably that although it has nice road maps on which will show a position on the street, its not really geared up to be used for aviation.

I used memory map and iPaq with BT GPS, and its exellent. The IPAQ has a great screen which actually gives good visibility in direct sunlight (can't remember the technical name) which means you just set the screen backlight to a lower setting and can still use it just fine.

From my observations the BT GPS unit will run about 10 hours on a couple of AA's and the IPAQ about 3, so it is worth powering the IPAQ from the aircraft, or getting an additional high capacity external battery.

Its fantastic when flying across high desert regions at night, last time I flew from Sedona to Laughlin at night and it was nice to have the GPS info. Also makes interesting reading when you downwload the track to the desktop after the flight (looking at my speed profile, I crossed the departure end of Laughlins runway during my "std overhead join" at 160 knots GS while trying to descend to circuit height after clearing the mountains)

[shortstripper]

Probably that although it has nice road maps on which will show a position on the street, its not really geared up to be used for aviation.

I might be confusing everyone here? I was talking about using a tomtom gps reciever, not the tomtom roadmap software. Of course I could be confusing myself, which is not at all unusual but I can't see how the gps reciever knows the difference between roads and any other track (ie a line on a nav chart) Don't all gps recievers just cross ref from sattalites to give position? ... So tomtom gps reciever, and ipaq PDA + what memory map software to use with CAA chart?

Thanks ..... SS

[englishal]

Ah yea, see what you mean. All GPS's work the same and if they can output the data to say an IPAQ then yes, TT+IPAQ+MM would work.

There are a number of dedicated street map boxes which have the road map dB built in which cannot be used for anything other than the software installed on them.......

Cheers

[IO540]

TomTom is primarily a software product for road navigation. They also bundle various hardware with it. If the hardware is a normal pocket/pc PDA then there should be no reason why that PDA could not be used to run some aviation-related software, e.g. MemoryMap or Oziexplorer (the latter with self-scanned aviation charts). But I don't think TomTom software itself is any good for aviation.

Re dodgy GPS reception, nobody should use a GPS unless they have a rooftop aerial (antenna). I know the current Garmins with their integral aerials do tend to work, in an all-metal aircraft, 99% of the time... This is not an argument against GPS; it is an argument against the owner of an aircraft who is not willing to spend say £300 to get a proper GPS aerial fitted.

[dublinpilot]

IO,

Unfortunately some of us don't own our own aircraft, and thus have little choice but use handheld equipment, with their internal antennas or winscreen placed antennas. It works fine, as long as you have an alternative plan for when you lose the signal. Usually the signal loss isn't very long, but you have to be prepared for the times you don't get it back, and for the times it goes at a very inconvient moment!

dp

[Ptkay]

Thanks

Thanks everybody for your comments.

I tested recently PocketFMS, it's really great, I think I will go for it.

I also will get a USB GPS, probably from Garmin, no cheap stuff.
And certainly no Bloutooth, I have also heard stories of losing connection PDA-GPS on that hardware.

I have just one other daubt:

are the PDA screens not to small ?

I have a Socata Rallye (no yoke) so the only place I can put my
GPS is my knee-pad or central avionics bay, both in quite a distance from my old eyes.
And when I try to put closer using
one of those window mounted car holders, I have to fight
in flight with my reading glasses...

When I make a Flight Plan on paper for my kneepad I just write it in BIG letters and use BIG maps.

Therefore I was considering using something like sub-notebook
or tablet PC for my GPS application. There are some 8-10" screen
units avalable recently on the market.

Have any of you tried to use such configuration.

PTKay

[IO540]

dublinpilot

A windscreen attached aerial should be fine too, if the aircraft has a windscreen which is almost horizontal near the top edge - like a PA28 I used to rent.

The key is to give it a good view of the sky.

Not as good as one on the top of a metal roof.

If I was renting out a plane, at say £100/hour, and getting a gross income of some £10k-£50k a year, I would spend £300 to reduce the chance of a renter getting lost, because if one of them does get lost then *he* might get done by the CAA (or better still the DGAC) but financially the buck will stop with *me*. If the plane gets confiscated in some 3rd world country the renter will just jump on Ryanair to get back but I will have to retrieve it. In fact, if I was renting out a plane, I would fit a really good panel mounted GPS in it, and I would make sure everybody who flies it knows exactly how to work it.

You might try making that point to the owner.

I accept that some people prefer to use a stopwatch etc and they can just turn the brightness right down so they can't see it, and turn it back up if they are "temporarily uncertain of position"

[drauk]

Some modern PDAs have good enough battery life to do most flights - 4 hours plus. Look for one that is physically larger as it will likely have a bigger battery. Examples include the iPAQ 4300 series with the built in keyboard, or slightly less so the iPAQ 4700 series.

I wouldn't shy away from Bluetooth. I've used it with half a dozen different PDAs, a similar number of mobile phones, laptops and a couple of GPS receivers, all without problems. Thousands of people use AnywhereMap with it regularly. Of course, a cable is going to be more reliable I suppose, provided it has a good connection (the sockets on the bottom of many PDAs are pretty flimsy) and provided that using it doesn't stop you using external power if you want to.

I also wouldn't let the suggested need for an external (to the plane) antenna put you off either. Of course it will be better and is desirable, but an external one at the bottom of the windscreen is pretty good. That you can drive through central London with the GPS receiver on the passenger seat of the car without it losing a signal shows just how good modern units are.

Screen size - the new VGA models (such as the iPAQ 4700) are a big improvement in this area, though older models are perfectly workable. Make sure that whatever software you're using supports VGA, unless you're just interested in everything appearing bigger on the screen (as opposed to seeing more information) which is what will happen if it doesn't.

[hekokimushi]

anyone got the CAA memory maps whom would like to trade with any of my OS maps for the UK R1-12, Aerial maps (all Englands aerial). a share of the qct file?? all adds up to the cost if buying it all. and all i am missing are the CAA ones.