Getting an Airways clearance
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: The Heart
Just an anecdotal story.
I had an IFR flight plan rejected 3 times by Eurocontrol so I filed a VFR plan due to crossing national boundaries. Then I got airborne and filed and flew the original plan.
My experience has been that Eurocontrol only allow what is theoretically possible within the slots of airspace when filing flight plans. Airborne clearances are accepted on the actual situation at time of request.
I had an IFR flight plan rejected 3 times by Eurocontrol so I filed a VFR plan due to crossing national boundaries. Then I got airborne and filed and flew the original plan.
My experience has been that Eurocontrol only allow what is theoretically possible within the slots of airspace when filing flight plans. Airborne clearances are accepted on the actual situation at time of request.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
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From: UK
I had an IFR flight plan rejected 3 times by Eurocontrol so I filed a VFR plan due to crossing national boundaries. Then I got airborne and filed and flew the original plan.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
Miserlou,
I have come across the exact same problem a number of times in the UK when filing IFR in class G.
The important thing is thet we made a report after the flight and highlighted the problem. Have you made a report? If not then don't expect anyone to do anything about it.
In our case we were only flying internal so we cancelled the flight plan and simply used the UK procedure to "book out" IFR.
The majority of countries expect IFR flights to operate to/from aerodromes that permitt IFR flights according to AIP entry and to fly on the airways that are provided for that purpose. Thus the system is not set up for a departure from a farmer's field on an IFR flight to another farmer's field.
Our problem was not with the airfields but the route was rejected and an on-airways route proposed..........very nice but then we would need a slot and would have a delay!!
As long as the UK has it's own system different from the rest, then it will have unique problems for pilots which will not be resolved simply for the minority.
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Bookworm,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the procedure Miserlou used and it is in no way "jumping the que".
If there was a flow restriction on the chosen route that was filed in flight then the flight would have been issued with a slot and would have been required to hold outside the system (outside the airway) until that time. Thus the que would have been intact but Miserlou may have found that he did not have enough fuel to hold for 3 hours
The procedures for joining airways require ATC to ensure that slot times are complied with.
In essence to me this is the one time when I love to have a slot because having got airbourne with a slot, ATC have to do whatever necessary to meet the slot time............without a slot, a joiner is low on the pecking order and could be held for some time.
Regards,
DFC
I have come across the exact same problem a number of times in the UK when filing IFR in class G.
The important thing is thet we made a report after the flight and highlighted the problem. Have you made a report? If not then don't expect anyone to do anything about it.
In our case we were only flying internal so we cancelled the flight plan and simply used the UK procedure to "book out" IFR.
The majority of countries expect IFR flights to operate to/from aerodromes that permitt IFR flights according to AIP entry and to fly on the airways that are provided for that purpose. Thus the system is not set up for a departure from a farmer's field on an IFR flight to another farmer's field.
Our problem was not with the airfields but the route was rejected and an on-airways route proposed..........very nice but then we would need a slot and would have a delay!!
As long as the UK has it's own system different from the rest, then it will have unique problems for pilots which will not be resolved simply for the minority.
---
Bookworm,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the procedure Miserlou used and it is in no way "jumping the que".
If there was a flow restriction on the chosen route that was filed in flight then the flight would have been issued with a slot and would have been required to hold outside the system (outside the airway) until that time. Thus the que would have been intact but Miserlou may have found that he did not have enough fuel to hold for 3 hours
The procedures for joining airways require ATC to ensure that slot times are complied with.
In essence to me this is the one time when I love to have a slot because having got airbourne with a slot, ATC have to do whatever necessary to meet the slot time............without a slot, a joiner is low on the pecking order and could be held for some time.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
IO540,
Can't say exactly what the penalities are in France for flying illegally.
Before flying IFR in controlled airspace a clearance is required.
You may have to hold and remain in VMC while a clearance is obtained.
Thus overall, the option of doing the UK system of going from VFR to IFR and then asking for an approach to somewhere is not available in France (or most other places). However ATC will always do their best.
Continued VFR into IFR counts for a large number of fatalities each year.
In France and many other countries, there is considerable interest in pilots who are on VFR flights who suddenly decide that it is impossible to continue VFR.........everyone immediately thinks poor airmanship especially when the weather was never good VFR in the first place!!
Of course this is totally different from the pilot who files a flight plan with flight rules Y or Z as appropriate.
Regards,
DFC
Can't say exactly what the penalities are in France for flying illegally.
Before flying IFR in controlled airspace a clearance is required.
You may have to hold and remain in VMC while a clearance is obtained.
Thus overall, the option of doing the UK system of going from VFR to IFR and then asking for an approach to somewhere is not available in France (or most other places). However ATC will always do their best.
Continued VFR into IFR counts for a large number of fatalities each year.
In France and many other countries, there is considerable interest in pilots who are on VFR flights who suddenly decide that it is impossible to continue VFR.........everyone immediately thinks poor airmanship especially when the weather was never good VFR in the first place!!
Of course this is totally different from the pilot who files a flight plan with flight rules Y or Z as appropriate.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Indeed, and I don't know why my question was interpreted by DFC as something illegal. I was hoping that somebody would actually know the answer, rather than pontificate.
Incidentally, fatalities (in the context of flight into IMC) occur only when somebody hits the ground
edit: I asked somebody who does flies around Europe a lot and his reply was:
"Yes, its not a problem. Just say - "unable to maintain VFR - request IFR clearance". Or "unable to maintain VFR - request vectors for your ILS runway". They will make you climb to the MEA first if you are low."
So, no big deal.
Incidentally, fatalities (in the context of flight into IMC) occur only when somebody hits the ground
edit: I asked somebody who does flies around Europe a lot and his reply was:
"Yes, its not a problem. Just say - "unable to maintain VFR - request IFR clearance". Or "unable to maintain VFR - request vectors for your ILS runway". They will make you climb to the MEA first if you are low."
So, no big deal.
Last edited by IO540; 8th December 2004 at 14:39.
