Floater Fields
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Floater Fields
Bembridge and Compton Abbas to name but two.
Every time I go there I float for ever in my humble PA28.
So, what tips have you got for "getting it down" at such airfields safely?
For all you anti-spamcanners, getting a 'real' plane does not count
Every time I go there I float for ever in my humble PA28.
So, what tips have you got for "getting it down" at such airfields safely?
For all you anti-spamcanners, getting a 'real' plane does not count
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I agree, sounds like your approach speed is too high. The POH should give you some recommended speeds for short field landings, but I would practise slow flying and handling at a safe height first.
Normal rule of thumb is 1.3 x stall speed as a minimum. The problem is that if you drop much below this on approach you usually end up on the back end of the drag curve which means you need height or a lot of power to recover. Practise makes perfect as they say.
Normal rule of thumb is 1.3 x stall speed as a minimum. The problem is that if you drop much below this on approach you usually end up on the back end of the drag curve which means you need height or a lot of power to recover. Practise makes perfect as they say.
Well they do both have a bit of a downslope on the most common runway heading. But...
A lot of people use too high an approach speed in PA28s, many instructors seem to delight in teaching it, for reasons I'll never understand.
63kn for a -161 and 65kn for a -180 are the speeds at MAUW, they should come down a little at lower weights. I flew with one FAA instructor who insisted on 75kn until I nearly shoved the POH up her backside in annoyance (damned american used to 2000m concrete runways all the time.).
Stick with those and you shouldn't hit a problem - I speak as somebody used to landing a -161 at both Bembridge and Compton, which are both favourite lunch stops. (Oh for a Crab and Lobster seafood platter
)
G
A lot of people use too high an approach speed in PA28s, many instructors seem to delight in teaching it, for reasons I'll never understand.
63kn for a -161 and 65kn for a -180 are the speeds at MAUW, they should come down a little at lower weights. I flew with one FAA instructor who insisted on 75kn until I nearly shoved the POH up her backside in annoyance (damned american used to 2000m concrete runways all the time.).
Stick with those and you shouldn't hit a problem - I speak as somebody used to landing a -161 at both Bembridge and Compton, which are both favourite lunch stops. (Oh for a Crab and Lobster seafood platter
)G
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Took a slab wing PA28-180 in/out of Felthorpe a few years back. No problem at all, even in 450m, if the approach speed is right! Landed with room to spare....
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Compton Abbas
I have flown various PA28-181s, into this field over the years. (One of my favourite fields - very good food).
I agree with Genghis - nail the speed at 65kn, or just under if below MAUW, & they land on the numbers every time.
I recall that there used to be a notice on the wall at Compton, put up by the airfield owner. It went something like:-
-----------------------------------------------------
PILOTS
I provide you with 800m of grass runway.
So why do you land on only the last 400m?
------------------------------------------------------
So perhaps a lot of aircraft do float down this runway!
I have flown various PA28-181s, into this field over the years. (One of my favourite fields - very good food).
I agree with Genghis - nail the speed at 65kn, or just under if below MAUW, & they land on the numbers every time.
I recall that there used to be a notice on the wall at Compton, put up by the airfield owner. It went something like:-
-----------------------------------------------------
PILOTS
I provide you with 800m of grass runway.
So why do you land on only the last 400m?
------------------------------------------------------
So perhaps a lot of aircraft do float down this runway!
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I think that part of the 'problem' can be that they are slightly 'unusual' in the aspect they provide when they are approached.
Although 800m is ample it is probably shorter than what most folks are used to and the undershoot of both is a bit different from the average flat fields.
Combined with that you can get more turbulence on short final for both and a lot of people will therefore fly a bit faster over their normal (typically fastish) approach speed.
Hence the extended float.
FD
Although 800m is ample it is probably shorter than what most folks are used to and the undershoot of both is a bit different from the average flat fields.
Combined with that you can get more turbulence on short final for both and a lot of people will therefore fly a bit faster over their normal (typically fastish) approach speed.
Hence the extended float.
FD
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Does anyone agree with one of my little theories about this?
That is (and I am generalising about renting aircraft or flying fairly infrequently):-
When new to an aircraft type one really concentrates on nailling the speeds but with time on type, confidence builds, standards erode slightly as one appreciates how much lee-way some of these specifics have and approach speeds begin to get faster. Climb outs begin to get a little faster, too! Slow speed has a perception of being dangerous.
Overall, the flying is fine but it could all be just a little more accurate. Slow flight and practicing stalls probably aren't done enough?
Just an opinion - which I generally keep to myself! But I also despair when people seem tend o neglect the first half of the strip.
My strip is 600yds long and I won't tell you how many folk have bounced into the neighbouring field or ended up sideways in a desperate attempt to ground loop. Thankfully, to date, no damage and no injury. All of the above scenarios have occurred to people on their fourth of fifth visit!
Stik
That is (and I am generalising about renting aircraft or flying fairly infrequently):-
When new to an aircraft type one really concentrates on nailling the speeds but with time on type, confidence builds, standards erode slightly as one appreciates how much lee-way some of these specifics have and approach speeds begin to get faster. Climb outs begin to get a little faster, too! Slow speed has a perception of being dangerous.
Overall, the flying is fine but it could all be just a little more accurate. Slow flight and practicing stalls probably aren't done enough?
Just an opinion - which I generally keep to myself! But I also despair when people seem tend o neglect the first half of the strip.
My strip is 600yds long and I won't tell you how many folk have bounced into the neighbouring field or ended up sideways in a desperate attempt to ground loop. Thankfully, to date, no damage and no injury. All of the above scenarios have occurred to people on their fourth of fifth visit!
Stik
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I prescribe some tailwheel flying.
The aircraft is descending to land. When its descent is arrested by the mainwheels touching down it will continue trying to descend. A nosewheel a/c will pitch nose down because the C of G is forward of the mains, a tailwheel a/c will pitch up because it is behind.
Land too fast in a nosewheel and not a lot happens. The AoA and hence the lift both decrease and you stay on the ground. With a tailwheel AoA and lift increase and you soar back into the sky. Hence flying tailwheels is a great way to get your speeds nailed. Too fast in a tailwheel and you look a twassock.
The other issue is with the slope. 08/26 at both Popham and Compton have dips in the middle which means you are landing on a downslope. The faster you are travelling when you cross the numbers the faster the ground is going to fall away beneath you!
Low wing a/c such as the PA28 also experience more ground effect than a high wing type like a Cessna.
You can also have a problem with an upslope. You are looking forward at a part of the runway that is higher than the part you are on top of. Everything looks good through the windscreen but the runway is still 20 feet below you. Landing 20 feet above the runway is not recommended and results in the aircraft being taken away on a lorry. (I was the operator not the pilot
)
The aircraft is descending to land. When its descent is arrested by the mainwheels touching down it will continue trying to descend. A nosewheel a/c will pitch nose down because the C of G is forward of the mains, a tailwheel a/c will pitch up because it is behind.
Land too fast in a nosewheel and not a lot happens. The AoA and hence the lift both decrease and you stay on the ground. With a tailwheel AoA and lift increase and you soar back into the sky. Hence flying tailwheels is a great way to get your speeds nailed. Too fast in a tailwheel and you look a twassock.
The other issue is with the slope. 08/26 at both Popham and Compton have dips in the middle which means you are landing on a downslope. The faster you are travelling when you cross the numbers the faster the ground is going to fall away beneath you!
Low wing a/c such as the PA28 also experience more ground effect than a high wing type like a Cessna.
You can also have a problem with an upslope. You are looking forward at a part of the runway that is higher than the part you are on top of. Everything looks good through the windscreen but the runway is still 20 feet below you. Landing 20 feet above the runway is not recommended and results in the aircraft being taken away on a lorry. (I was the operator not the pilot
)
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Landed on Popham's rwy 24 for the first time the other day. This involves an offset approach and a sharp right turn over the numbers at, I guess, about 30ft, and then landing on a down sloping grass strip. This was the most interesting low level manoevre I can recall doing and I was most impressed by the PA-28-161's ability to make this turn almost 'on a dime'. Having the speed nailed at the advertised 63kt must make a difference - faster would mean a wider turn and the dreaded float, already some way down the runway.
Does this Popham approach cause problems? It didn't seem to for numerous other pilots landing while I was sipping tea at their excellent cafe. If it can be flown day after day without incident, I wonder why we bother with straight in approaches or square circuits at all?
Does this Popham approach cause problems? It didn't seem to for numerous other pilots landing while I was sipping tea at their excellent cafe. If it can be flown day after day without incident, I wonder why we bother with straight in approaches or square circuits at all?
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Hey Stik!
Shouldn't that be "my new Pitts!"
With regard to floating the 3 P's apply
Piss poor planning leads to a bad landing. The Pa28 in all its versions requires correct handling in order to arrive at the right end of the RWY
Perhaps a couple of trips with an experienced club member (not an instructor) might help
Sir George Caley
Shouldn't that be "my new Pitts!"
With regard to floating the 3 P's apply
Piss poor planning leads to a bad landing. The Pa28 in all its versions requires correct handling in order to arrive at the right end of the RWY
Perhaps a couple of trips with an experienced club member (not an instructor) might help
Sir George Caley
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Perhaps a couple of trips with an experienced club member (not an instructor) might help
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Ahh Sir George - you may have caught me out.
In my darker coloured Pitts - initially I would arrive at a flare speed before the threshold and grease her on within 150yards. It then transpired that after a year or two I could arrive at the threshold with speeds between x and y and still flare and not worry about using brakes to stop.
Then on a couple of occasions I totally got the wind wrong and landed downwind but with judicious use of controls and brakes had her stopped well within the strip boundary and was always prepared to hit the noise lever.
Sunday gone, I brought new toy home - had never landed this particular one before so worked real hard at nailing the speed (tadge above 80) and funny old thing, nil wind was stopped within 150yds again!
Flew her for her permit renewal later the same day and yet again at 80 she was down and stoped in no distance.
This obviously brings on the next bit - WHEN DO I START MY FLARE or rather where do I decide that I want my flare to start!
I aim to flare so that I will touchdown on the threshold.
However at a short strip this is important, it may have lesse r consequences if done elsewhere.
STik
In my darker coloured Pitts - initially I would arrive at a flare speed before the threshold and grease her on within 150yards. It then transpired that after a year or two I could arrive at the threshold with speeds between x and y and still flare and not worry about using brakes to stop.
Then on a couple of occasions I totally got the wind wrong and landed downwind but with judicious use of controls and brakes had her stopped well within the strip boundary and was always prepared to hit the noise lever.
Sunday gone, I brought new toy home - had never landed this particular one before so worked real hard at nailing the speed (tadge above 80) and funny old thing, nil wind was stopped within 150yds again!
Flew her for her permit renewal later the same day and yet again at 80 she was down and stoped in no distance.
This obviously brings on the next bit - WHEN DO I START MY FLARE or rather where do I decide that I want my flare to start!
I aim to flare so that I will touchdown on the threshold.
However at a short strip this is important, it may have lesse r consequences if done elsewhere.
STik
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genghis the Engineer .................
"I flew with one FAA instructor who insisted on 75kn until I nearly shoved the POH up her backside in annoyance"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did a checkout to hire a PA 28-180 recently, and the airline pilot instructor insisted on 79kts to the flare..............any advance?
Genghis the Engineer .................
"I flew with one FAA instructor who insisted on 75kn until I nearly shoved the POH up her backside in annoyance"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did a checkout to hire a PA 28-180 recently, and the airline pilot instructor insisted on 79kts to the flare..............any advance?
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Foxmouth
I think you've not got my point.
Many newish PPL's are more than competant but, exceptionally good instructors, average instructors and frankly appalling instructors all induce a similar strange reaction in some pilots.
If you have never felt this then you are either -
a) an instructor or
b) far better than the average type PPL
the reaction is a combination of clumsiness, gaucheness, forgertfulness and general lack of slickness.
This reaction can affect even lofty high time pompous pilots like me. The wierd thing is; put them with someone who doesn't purport to have some measure of God like authority and they settle down and fly naturally. The ones that don't show their short comings and can be referred back to the school.
Strangely, some PPL's with a tad of experience, have been found to have more competance than Instructors. Just as there are some very important high time PPL's who shouldn't be allowed near hangar doors in comparison with instructors.
In other words one can learn to finess ones game by demonstration by one peers as opposed to constant reference back to the training organisation. Horses for courses perhaps.
Sir George Cayley
Many newish PPL's are more than competant but, exceptionally good instructors, average instructors and frankly appalling instructors all induce a similar strange reaction in some pilots.
If you have never felt this then you are either -
a) an instructor or
b) far better than the average type PPL
the reaction is a combination of clumsiness, gaucheness, forgertfulness and general lack of slickness.
This reaction can affect even lofty high time pompous pilots like me. The wierd thing is; put them with someone who doesn't purport to have some measure of God like authority and they settle down and fly naturally. The ones that don't show their short comings and can be referred back to the school.
Strangely, some PPL's with a tad of experience, have been found to have more competance than Instructors. Just as there are some very important high time PPL's who shouldn't be allowed near hangar doors in comparison with instructors.
In other words one can learn to finess ones game by demonstration by one peers as opposed to constant reference back to the training organisation. Horses for courses perhaps.
Sir George Cayley
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Sir G,
First, PLEASE get my screen name right - you would think on an AVIATION site a name such as mine would not be a problem.
Secondly, yes, I can now see what you are getting at, but the way you put it I think left it a bit to open to many who would be susceptable to the nearest "Bar Ace" comming out with "of course I can show you how to do that."
I quite agree though that there ARE experienced PPLs who will be right in these situations - the problem can be finding them
First, PLEASE get my screen name right - you would think on an AVIATION site a name such as mine would not be a problem.
Secondly, yes, I can now see what you are getting at, but the way you put it I think left it a bit to open to many who would be susceptable to the nearest "Bar Ace" comming out with "of course I can show you how to do that."
I quite agree though that there ARE experienced PPLs who will be right in these situations - the problem can be finding them
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Foxmouth or foxmoth if you insist
Sir George Cayley (b1773 - d 1857) is our very own "ghost of aviation past"
So, you should forgive his spelling, as I feel that he is coping very well with modern technology, for someone who has been dead for nearly 150 years!
Sir George Cayley (b1773 - d 1857) is our very own "ghost of aviation past"
So, you should forgive his spelling, as I feel that he is coping very well with modern technology, for someone who has been dead for nearly 150 years!
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Hey,
No need to shout at foxmoth.
He made a valid point, as did Sir G.
The quality of instructors can vary wildly but not as much as that of PPLs.
You only have to read about people's antics on here, other forums or have a few drinks on the terrace of an airfield to see that for yourself.
No need to shout at foxmoth.
He made a valid point, as did Sir G.
The quality of instructors can vary wildly but not as much as that of PPLs.
You only have to read about people's antics on here, other forums or have a few drinks on the terrace of an airfield to see that for yourself.
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distaff_beancounter & Final 3 Greens
I am sure I could be rude and bugger your screen names about but most here try to keep things a little more civilised - I do not believe I was being rude to Sir G, just asking politely (I thought) for my right name - and you may notice that I did basically agree with his comment once understood properly.
I am sure I could be rude and bugger your screen names about but most here try to keep things a little more civilised - I do not believe I was being rude to Sir G, just asking politely (I thought) for my right name - and you may notice that I did basically agree with his comment once understood properly.
Last edited by foxmoth; 4th Oct 2004 at 16:48.