IMC rating diary
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Wbryce,
Hi, glad you could join us. I used Trevor Thom vol. 5 and the airquiz tests. The airquiz tests relate quite closely to the real exam in terms of difficulty and makeup so they are a very good indicator.
How true it is I don't know, but an instructor recently told me that the Trevor Thom series is now the baseline that the CAA use to set the exams from.
I'm not a big fan of the confuser series of books, but then I didn't need to use them. The IMC exam is an extension of your visual nav, flight planning, airlaw and met from your existing PPL. However, the joy is that the major bulk of the content relates quite closely to what you need to be able to do.
ie. Plan a flight including logcard and fuel useage.
Awareness of the effects of met on your planned flight
How to read and get information from an approach plate
What the instrument flight rules are and application of them.
Basically if it's not in Thom vol. 5, then it was already in your previous PPL exams. Oh and a lot of the information is easier to remember when you have some training to relate it to. I read Vol. 5 before I got heaviliy into the airborne work and it could have been the history of art in the Falkland Islands I was reading about. I just couldn't remember it that easily. After a few hours in the air it fell into place more easily.
Regards
Obs cop
Hi, glad you could join us. I used Trevor Thom vol. 5 and the airquiz tests. The airquiz tests relate quite closely to the real exam in terms of difficulty and makeup so they are a very good indicator.
How true it is I don't know, but an instructor recently told me that the Trevor Thom series is now the baseline that the CAA use to set the exams from.
I'm not a big fan of the confuser series of books, but then I didn't need to use them. The IMC exam is an extension of your visual nav, flight planning, airlaw and met from your existing PPL. However, the joy is that the major bulk of the content relates quite closely to what you need to be able to do.
ie. Plan a flight including logcard and fuel useage.
Awareness of the effects of met on your planned flight
How to read and get information from an approach plate
What the instrument flight rules are and application of them.
Basically if it's not in Thom vol. 5, then it was already in your previous PPL exams. Oh and a lot of the information is easier to remember when you have some training to relate it to. I read Vol. 5 before I got heaviliy into the airborne work and it could have been the history of art in the Falkland Islands I was reading about. I just couldn't remember it that easily. After a few hours in the air it fell into place more easily.
Regards
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I haven't read the whole thread by a long way, so just a couple of things:
The IMC Confuser is great. Make sure you get at least 90% on it.
I don't like TT Book 5 very much. It is very confusing and (not having looked at it for a few years) I could swear there are (were) some diagrams to do with VOR/NDB tracking which were simply wrong. The book appears to be the work of several different authors. But it will do for the IMCR exam, because the CAA exams are written to fit the content and terminology of the TT books (or perhaps the other way around).
I am positively the last person to knock the IMCR (which is a super privilege to have) and will always have a go at those old farts who say it's a "get into trouble rating" etc, but -
If you are doing the IMCR to go places, rather than just a piece of paper, it helps a lot to have an instructor who actually flies for real. Otherwise, one can get an idea that instrument flight is just a load of NDB holds, more NDB holds, and perhaps an ILS at the end. The reality, even just pottering about the UK, can be substantially different. There is a lot more to know if one is going to use it for real; e.g. navigation using GPS/VOR/DME and how to get decent en-route weather data.
The above isn't a criticism of the Rating or its content; it is a criticism of the way it is generally taught. Every instrument instructor should have a current IR and should be using it, too.
The IMC Confuser is great. Make sure you get at least 90% on it.
I don't like TT Book 5 very much. It is very confusing and (not having looked at it for a few years) I could swear there are (were) some diagrams to do with VOR/NDB tracking which were simply wrong. The book appears to be the work of several different authors. But it will do for the IMCR exam, because the CAA exams are written to fit the content and terminology of the TT books (or perhaps the other way around).
I am positively the last person to knock the IMCR (which is a super privilege to have) and will always have a go at those old farts who say it's a "get into trouble rating" etc, but -
If you are doing the IMCR to go places, rather than just a piece of paper, it helps a lot to have an instructor who actually flies for real. Otherwise, one can get an idea that instrument flight is just a load of NDB holds, more NDB holds, and perhaps an ILS at the end. The reality, even just pottering about the UK, can be substantially different. There is a lot more to know if one is going to use it for real; e.g. navigation using GPS/VOR/DME and how to get decent en-route weather data.
The above isn't a criticism of the Rating or its content; it is a criticism of the way it is generally taught. Every instrument instructor should have a current IR and should be using it, too.
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IO540,
As ever some very valid points. There will always be the "old farts" who see the IMCR as a get you into trouble rating.
I can see their point. It is not an IR, never will be an IR and should never be used as an IR would be. 15 hours training is very little, but as ever currency is of more use than the impressiveness of a piece of paper.
A current IMCR holder is less of a liability than an IR holder who has not used the skills for some time.
But I started the IMCR for 2 distinct purposes:
1. The get me out of jail card for when the VFR conditions turn a bit cruddy and I really do want to be back on the ground.
2. To get VFR on top or to get somewhere in the UK.
I like flying VFR. I don't enjoy IMC as the view is pants. But as a skill to have, and use correctly it opens a lot of doors up some of which are far safer than boucing around in low level rubbish weather with rubbish visibility and low cloud base.
Obs cop
As ever some very valid points. There will always be the "old farts" who see the IMCR as a get you into trouble rating.
I can see their point. It is not an IR, never will be an IR and should never be used as an IR would be. 15 hours training is very little, but as ever currency is of more use than the impressiveness of a piece of paper.
A current IMCR holder is less of a liability than an IR holder who has not used the skills for some time.
But I started the IMCR for 2 distinct purposes:
1. The get me out of jail card for when the VFR conditions turn a bit cruddy and I really do want to be back on the ground.
2. To get VFR on top or to get somewhere in the UK.
I like flying VFR. I don't enjoy IMC as the view is pants. But as a skill to have, and use correctly it opens a lot of doors up some of which are far safer than boucing around in low level rubbish weather with rubbish visibility and low cloud base.
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I could see the RWY 20nm away
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Obs Cop
The problem with a "get out of jail card" is that it isn't going to get used much, and when you need it you won't have the currency to be able to use it. So one needs to budget for doing more hours than a purely VFR pilot might get away with.
Few people like to fly in IMC, and they can't anyway for long if it's icing. VMC on top is the general idea.
The "15hrs min" isn't really feasible IMHO if one is to be able to use the full privileges. But then very few people do the PPL in 45
How many people do the JAA IR to a useful standard in 50 (or 55 for ME)? Who knows; almost none of those presently doing it end up using it at PPL level because they are working towards a P2 seat on a 737
The problem with a "get out of jail card" is that it isn't going to get used much, and when you need it you won't have the currency to be able to use it. So one needs to budget for doing more hours than a purely VFR pilot might get away with.
Few people like to fly in IMC, and they can't anyway for long if it's icing. VMC on top is the general idea.
The "15hrs min" isn't really feasible IMHO if one is to be able to use the full privileges. But then very few people do the PPL in 45
How many people do the JAA IR to a useful standard in 50 (or 55 for ME)? Who knows; almost none of those presently doing it end up using it at PPL level because they are working towards a P2 seat on a 737
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IO540,
Yep, I agree. As I have hinted earlier in the thread, my expectation is that I will be devoting quite some time to ensuring my IMC skills are maintained. If anything a couple of minor enforced absences have pointed out to me quite clearly how quickly the skills go rusty.
In reality, I feel that 12 hours to remain legal for VFR flying is far below that required to stay "current". Far more is needed to keep your VFR skills fresh, and even more is needed for an IMCR to be of actual use rather than just a nice signature on a piece of paper.
I have no intention of flying to the edge of my, or the aircraft's limits, but I do feel that well maintained, the IMCR is a useful tool and if current is a "get out of jail card". But again, it is not and never will be an IR. Likewise, the full priviledges conferred by an IMCR are really stretching it to get it into 15 hours. We have concentrated on what I intend to use my IMCR for, and so have looked at approaches to varied airfields with significant GA bases. My background includes some military aviation and many of the doctrines have stayed with me ever since. Complacency is not something I aspire to, safety is. It is in this spirit that I wish to develop my flying, and no I'm not after the RHS of a 737
Regards
Obs cop
Yep, I agree. As I have hinted earlier in the thread, my expectation is that I will be devoting quite some time to ensuring my IMC skills are maintained. If anything a couple of minor enforced absences have pointed out to me quite clearly how quickly the skills go rusty.
In reality, I feel that 12 hours to remain legal for VFR flying is far below that required to stay "current". Far more is needed to keep your VFR skills fresh, and even more is needed for an IMCR to be of actual use rather than just a nice signature on a piece of paper.
I have no intention of flying to the edge of my, or the aircraft's limits, but I do feel that well maintained, the IMCR is a useful tool and if current is a "get out of jail card". But again, it is not and never will be an IR. Likewise, the full priviledges conferred by an IMCR are really stretching it to get it into 15 hours. We have concentrated on what I intend to use my IMCR for, and so have looked at approaches to varied airfields with significant GA bases. My background includes some military aviation and many of the doctrines have stayed with me ever since. Complacency is not something I aspire to, safety is. It is in this spirit that I wish to develop my flying, and no I'm not after the RHS of a 737
Regards
Obs cop
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Rating received in the post today!
Received the rating in the post from the CAA today - 2 weeks almost to the day since I posted the application, £70 cheque and my logbook to them, which is pretty good service really - wouldn't complain. Thought you might like to know!
Hopefully, if the weather is not too bad, I might gingerly use it (under foggles in VMC with my mate as safety pilot) to try an instrument approach at airfields I've not approached by instruments before, Exeter and/or Plymouth, this Saturday!
Andy
Hopefully, if the weather is not too bad, I might gingerly use it (under foggles in VMC with my mate as safety pilot) to try an instrument approach at airfields I've not approached by instruments before, Exeter and/or Plymouth, this Saturday!
Andy
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 9th Feb 2005 at 06:38.
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Well don Aussie - great stuff. Hope you enjoy your new rating
Now for a very stupid, newbie style question:
With your IMC rating, can you fly above the cloud, out of sight of the ground and above the wether etc? Obviously if the top of the cloud is low enough, as not to break the ceiling of the aircraft.
Now for a very stupid, newbie style question:
With your IMC rating, can you fly above the cloud, out of sight of the ground and above the wether etc? Obviously if the top of the cloud is low enough, as not to break the ceiling of the aircraft.
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Thanks Mazzy,
The national (UK) IMC rating:
Let me know if any questions mate.
Andy
With your IMC rating, can you fly above the cloud, out of sight of the ground
- Removes ANO restriction of "never out of sight of surface"
- Removes ANO restriction of "never in visibility less than 3km, but imposes "never below 1800m for take-off or landing"
- Where SVFR is allowed, minimum visibility you can fly in is reduced from 10km to 3km
- Allows IFR in any airspace EXCEPT CLASS A (or B for that matter)
- NOT valid outside UK airspace (but "well respected" and can count towards e.g. FAA IR I am told...)
- Valid for 25 months, revalidation by test
- Pre-requisites are PPL, Radio License and 25hrs post-ppl flying before grant of rating (of which 10hrs must be PIC, of which 5hrs must be cross-country)
Let me know if any questions mate.
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Allows IFR in any airspace EXCEPT CLASS A (or B for that matter)
In fact, it's D to G to be as per ANO but I suppose that's sort of the same as not "A to C"!
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I was thinking the same thing the other day, murphy! How is it going Obs? Did you finish it?
We got onto the subject of 'have you actually used it' a couple of weeks back. Well I think I've actually used mine properly now!
I actually used it on Saturday to take a quick 'local north'. Despite the CAVOK on the METAR the vis was appaling so I elected to make an IFR departure DCT GAM FL50. This, I thought, would put me 'on top' of the haze. After launching into the haze the vis appeared much worse and as I approached FL40 I was climbing through cloud. I managed to get a RIS from EMA Appr and stayed on RIS throughout due to bursting in and out of the cloud tops at FL50 all the way to GAM. At GAM I tracked to SMF then turned due south when the radar range was getting a bit too far for EMA. This final leg had mostly broken contact with the ground and in and out of the clouds. I then flew a (pretty much perfect) ILS to RWY 09 (my first IAP to this RWY) and made visual contact with the RWY at about 5nm.
All in all VERY exciting and the first proper use of my IMCR.
My girlfriend was quite scared as we went into the first few clouds as they do rush up quite rapidly at 110kts. Especially the clearly defined, big white fluffy ones. Most PAX have never been in the cockpit of an a/c when it rams into something that appears solid at over a hundred miles an hour and I can understand why she gasped as we plunged into it. Worth bearing in mind if you take PAX on an IFR flight.
Andy - have you used yours yet?
We got onto the subject of 'have you actually used it' a couple of weeks back. Well I think I've actually used mine properly now!
I actually used it on Saturday to take a quick 'local north'. Despite the CAVOK on the METAR the vis was appaling so I elected to make an IFR departure DCT GAM FL50. This, I thought, would put me 'on top' of the haze. After launching into the haze the vis appeared much worse and as I approached FL40 I was climbing through cloud. I managed to get a RIS from EMA Appr and stayed on RIS throughout due to bursting in and out of the cloud tops at FL50 all the way to GAM. At GAM I tracked to SMF then turned due south when the radar range was getting a bit too far for EMA. This final leg had mostly broken contact with the ground and in and out of the clouds. I then flew a (pretty much perfect) ILS to RWY 09 (my first IAP to this RWY) and made visual contact with the RWY at about 5nm.
All in all VERY exciting and the first proper use of my IMCR.
My girlfriend was quite scared as we went into the first few clouds as they do rush up quite rapidly at 110kts. Especially the clearly defined, big white fluffy ones. Most PAX have never been in the cockpit of an a/c when it rams into something that appears solid at over a hundred miles an hour and I can understand why she gasped as we plunged into it. Worth bearing in mind if you take PAX on an IFR flight.
Andy - have you used yours yet?
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Andy - have you used yours yet?
Andy
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Murphy, Jez,
Thanks for the concern. I have just got back from preventing a small time drugs cartel in brazil from distributing ricin to the greater part of the developing world...................ahhhhhh I wish.
The reality is somewhat dull. My job decided to send me on a course and part way through my second daughter arrived into this world 4 weeks early, just the builders started work on my extension.
As a result I have been somewhat time limited.
The supposed last Lesson
After a lay off of 6 weeks, I went flying again today. Perfect weather for a refresher. After briefing and checking the aircraft, my trusty 152 climbed positively away from Coventry, retracing it's route straight towards Daventry VOR.
Todays wind was a Southwesterly which at the field was 17kts gusting 27. Ohhhhhhh, combined with the scattered cumulus, unstable airmass and rain showers this was going to be interesting. And indeed 1600lbs of Cessna is quite easy for mother nature to disturb and quite awkward to keep straight and level under the hood. But I got it together quite quickly and flew a respectable leg out to Daventry before turning North to track towards Leicester. All was going quite well I felt.
Then came the unusual attitudes,
and they passed uneventfully. Wouldn't you know it though we then had a practice vacuum pump failure and we lost the AI and DI. And again the unseen hands of my instructor ruined the picture. But no real drama's there either. A quick route back to Draycott Water and we were foiled from looking at approaches by Thompsonfly and their inbound 737.
So I asked, what would happen if you had an engine failure and the cloud base was so low as to preclude the chance of descent in IMC to break cloud and conduct a forced landing? To which the response was throttle back to idle, two stages of flaps, trim for 60 kts and take your hands of the yoke, only steering with your feet.
Lo and behold, we descended at quite a sedate rate. Into wind our ground speed was only about 30 kts and we seesawed along nose rising and falling as the aircraft meandered either side of its trimmed speed by 7 to 8 knots. Keeping straight with the rudder and now looking out of the window the following things struck me (not litterally of course).
We were going quite slowly, in control and not doing too bad a job of being an overweight glider. We still have a lot of countryside not built on which puts the odds a little better than even of not hitting a building etc. Unless the pilot interupts it with poor flying skill this thing doesn't want to fall out of the sky and really is quite stable, it just didn't want to stall or spin in, it just sat there happily nodding and descending. Lastly, in a bad situation as portrayed, good sense and airmanship can still recover some of the odds of making it out in one piece.
In no way do I promote this as a "course of action" for dealing with such a scenario. It was more about looking deeper into the flying characteristics of the aircraft and how a skilled and knowledgable pilot might be able to use them to their advantage when all else fails.
We then made a normal uneventful recovery to Coventry for a debrief. It never ceases to amaze me how much more can be learnt, even about an aircraft we all take for granted, and each gem gets tucked away, improving my confidence in the abilities of both the aircraft and myself.
That was a little pep talk as:
MY IMCR skills test is scheduled for Tuesday 12th April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many many apologies for the poor udating, but my hands have been very full over the last couple of months and an even keel has only just been re-established. Wish me luck,
Obs cop
Thanks for the concern. I have just got back from preventing a small time drugs cartel in brazil from distributing ricin to the greater part of the developing world...................ahhhhhh I wish.
The reality is somewhat dull. My job decided to send me on a course and part way through my second daughter arrived into this world 4 weeks early, just the builders started work on my extension.
As a result I have been somewhat time limited.
The supposed last Lesson
After a lay off of 6 weeks, I went flying again today. Perfect weather for a refresher. After briefing and checking the aircraft, my trusty 152 climbed positively away from Coventry, retracing it's route straight towards Daventry VOR.
Todays wind was a Southwesterly which at the field was 17kts gusting 27. Ohhhhhhh, combined with the scattered cumulus, unstable airmass and rain showers this was going to be interesting. And indeed 1600lbs of Cessna is quite easy for mother nature to disturb and quite awkward to keep straight and level under the hood. But I got it together quite quickly and flew a respectable leg out to Daventry before turning North to track towards Leicester. All was going quite well I felt.
Then came the unusual attitudes,
and they passed uneventfully. Wouldn't you know it though we then had a practice vacuum pump failure and we lost the AI and DI. And again the unseen hands of my instructor ruined the picture. But no real drama's there either. A quick route back to Draycott Water and we were foiled from looking at approaches by Thompsonfly and their inbound 737.
So I asked, what would happen if you had an engine failure and the cloud base was so low as to preclude the chance of descent in IMC to break cloud and conduct a forced landing? To which the response was throttle back to idle, two stages of flaps, trim for 60 kts and take your hands of the yoke, only steering with your feet.
Lo and behold, we descended at quite a sedate rate. Into wind our ground speed was only about 30 kts and we seesawed along nose rising and falling as the aircraft meandered either side of its trimmed speed by 7 to 8 knots. Keeping straight with the rudder and now looking out of the window the following things struck me (not litterally of course).
We were going quite slowly, in control and not doing too bad a job of being an overweight glider. We still have a lot of countryside not built on which puts the odds a little better than even of not hitting a building etc. Unless the pilot interupts it with poor flying skill this thing doesn't want to fall out of the sky and really is quite stable, it just didn't want to stall or spin in, it just sat there happily nodding and descending. Lastly, in a bad situation as portrayed, good sense and airmanship can still recover some of the odds of making it out in one piece.
In no way do I promote this as a "course of action" for dealing with such a scenario. It was more about looking deeper into the flying characteristics of the aircraft and how a skilled and knowledgable pilot might be able to use them to their advantage when all else fails.
We then made a normal uneventful recovery to Coventry for a debrief. It never ceases to amaze me how much more can be learnt, even about an aircraft we all take for granted, and each gem gets tucked away, improving my confidence in the abilities of both the aircraft and myself.
That was a little pep talk as:
MY IMCR skills test is scheduled for Tuesday 12th April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many many apologies for the poor udating, but my hands have been very full over the last couple of months and an even keel has only just been re-established. Wish me luck,
Obs cop
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and they passed uneventfully
(1) high air speed - "aha, he's hoping to trick me into closing the throttle, so I must be pointing straight up" - sure enough, pointing straight up, airspeed decreasing rapidly, stick forwards, full throttle
(2) low air speed - "aha, he's hoping to trick me into opening the throttle, so I must be pointing straight down" - you can guess the answer
(3) er, spiral dive, bit obvious really.
What else do they do?
How do they get you out of the mindset of gaming the instructor and into the mindset you'd need to be in if you'd upset the aircraft for real, and didn't have an instructor's mind to read to work out what was going on?
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OBS Cop, welcome back - sounds like you have your hands full! Welcome to the little one!! Good luck for Tuesday, sounds to me like you're going to kill it mate!
Gertrude (are you really a wombat?): my instructor didn't ever try to trick me as you describe - it was always kind of obvious which one was coming (i.e. a/s decreasing, nose rising, heading for the stall , and so forth). You must have just had someone who wanted a bit of entertainment as well
Andy
Gertrude (are you really a wombat?): my instructor didn't ever try to trick me as you describe - it was always kind of obvious which one was coming (i.e. a/s decreasing, nose rising, heading for the stall , and so forth). You must have just had someone who wanted a bit of entertainment as well
Andy
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Oh no, one of them was:
I heard no change to the engine note. I felt not change in attitude (he did it slowly).
I deduced that the only thing he could have done without giving me any cues was put us into a spiral dive, so when I opened my eyes I just looked to see in which direction we were turning and that was that.
Which was why it was an unrealistic test: in real life I wouldn't have known before I started that it was guaranteed to be a spiral dive and that all I had to do was spot the direction of turn. Comments fron instructors would be welcome at this point ...
(Re the name: I have always used my real name on internet fora, but when I joined PPRuNe absolutely nobody but nobody was using their real name and I'd have looked completely out of place. So I reckoned that if I was required to have a silly alias I'd take the trouble to make it really silly, that's all.)
I heard no change to the engine note. I felt not change in attitude (he did it slowly).
I deduced that the only thing he could have done without giving me any cues was put us into a spiral dive, so when I opened my eyes I just looked to see in which direction we were turning and that was that.
Which was why it was an unrealistic test: in real life I wouldn't have known before I started that it was guaranteed to be a spiral dive and that all I had to do was spot the direction of turn. Comments fron instructors would be welcome at this point ...
(Re the name: I have always used my real name on internet fora, but when I joined PPRuNe absolutely nobody but nobody was using their real name and I'd have looked completely out of place. So I reckoned that if I was required to have a silly alias I'd take the trouble to make it really silly, that's all.)
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The sadist I flew with didn't do anything. He just told me to close my eyes and fly S&L. Then, after a while, he'd say "open them and recover." That prevented any guessing about what might or might not have happened.
Means you do it properly - look at the instruments, decide the situation, and react appropriately.
Means you do it properly - look at the instruments, decide the situation, and react appropriately.
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AA,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Can anyone give me a heads up as to how their tests went or any pointers? Just trying to get the whole picture of what I can expect.
Many thanks
Obs cop
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Can anyone give me a heads up as to how their tests went or any pointers? Just trying to get the whole picture of what I can expect.
Many thanks
Obs cop
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Mine was totally no surprises and was exactly what I was told by my instructor it would be... flew a planned route from homebase over to Cranfield where I did one approach of my choice (direct to NDB, no hold, then ILS), then direct for homebase and on the way back did partial panel, unusual attitudes, and position fix. I think that's it - if you scroll back a few pages I think I writ it up at the time.
Cheers!
Andy
Found the note I writ: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...st#post1708157
Cheers!
Andy
Found the note I writ: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...st#post1708157