Mid air over Hertfordshire
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valenii, who is going to pay for this protection? Nothing in life is free, well apart from obtaining an ATC servive in the FIR?
If you want radar coverage someone will have to provide it for you, so are you and all other private flyers prepared to pay for such a service?
Probably no? Anyway, there are not enough validated radar ATCO's available in the UK to provide airport radar, let alone LARS and if you expect the MOD/Smiler Blair/You & I as tax payers to foot the bill, think again.
10/20 years ago life was different. Sadly today, airports and ATC units are there to maximise profits for airport operators and until such time TCAS is mandatory for ALL flyers, Mark 1 eyeball is all that can be relied upon.
I was totally gutted when I was told about this today, but would ATC actually see a microlight on their radar? Depending upon the range from the head and the radar frequency, possibly? Would one or both flights be in R/T communication with the same ATSU outside CAS? Would that controller have offered a LARS service due to his/hers workload?
Sadly, who knows. I offer my deepest thoughts for those that have perished as I know a few barmy micro pilots. For them this a cheap way to enjoy flying for fun.....just as it should be, fun!
If you want radar coverage someone will have to provide it for you, so are you and all other private flyers prepared to pay for such a service?
Probably no? Anyway, there are not enough validated radar ATCO's available in the UK to provide airport radar, let alone LARS and if you expect the MOD/Smiler Blair/You & I as tax payers to foot the bill, think again.
10/20 years ago life was different. Sadly today, airports and ATC units are there to maximise profits for airport operators and until such time TCAS is mandatory for ALL flyers, Mark 1 eyeball is all that can be relied upon.
I was totally gutted when I was told about this today, but would ATC actually see a microlight on their radar? Depending upon the range from the head and the radar frequency, possibly? Would one or both flights be in R/T communication with the same ATSU outside CAS? Would that controller have offered a LARS service due to his/hers workload?
Sadly, who knows. I offer my deepest thoughts for those that have perished as I know a few barmy micro pilots. For them this a cheap way to enjoy flying for fun.....just as it should be, fun!
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I wasn't working today but I can tell you that the chances of seeing microlights are virtually impossible, with todays digitally enhanced processed radars. Not always possible to see all non squawking light aircraft.
God Bless
God Bless
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First of all my sympathies go out to the families and friends of the victims of this tragic accident.
Having spent many an hour jammed between Luton and London and squashed down by the TMA above, I am not surprised this has happened. It was only a matter of time before something like this or more tragic happened. I have personnally witnessed a couple of prats doing aeros close the one of the entry points to Luton's VFR lane, in another instance, a pilot hidden deep in thought behind a charts. It never ceases to amaze me what poor airmanship some people demonstrate.
It is an extremely busy bit of airspace, with a huge variety of aircraft, from microlites to private jets. Only goes to show the importance of a proper look out and good airmanship.
Safe flying everyone.
Having spent many an hour jammed between Luton and London and squashed down by the TMA above, I am not surprised this has happened. It was only a matter of time before something like this or more tragic happened. I have personnally witnessed a couple of prats doing aeros close the one of the entry points to Luton's VFR lane, in another instance, a pilot hidden deep in thought behind a charts. It never ceases to amaze me what poor airmanship some people demonstrate.
It is an extremely busy bit of airspace, with a huge variety of aircraft, from microlites to private jets. Only goes to show the importance of a proper look out and good airmanship.
Safe flying everyone.
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I was working, and although not microlights (which, as AlanM says, hardly show in radar) I was treated to two streams of gliders stretching from just outside of Lyneham to the Malverns and the other from the same point up to the East side of Gloucester. 30 or 40 in each stream, the streams stretching 20 miles from front to back.
Avoiding action - fat chance! All you can do is call it out and hope for the best
Avoiding action - fat chance! All you can do is call it out and hope for the best
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As QDM says, Kemble will be busy - let's not forget the British Grand Prix weekend at Silverstone. Not sure how many helis will going in on Sunday but it's bound to be around 150 with many more flights than that from all the feeder sights around there. Be a good place to steer clear of.
Picking up what ChilliM says, there can be quite high concentrations of gliders on competition weekends which are quite popular at this time of year. While the Notams I think usually declare the comps. there isn't an easy way of communicating the tasks which are always set immediately before the comp starts, to the general GA fraternity who are likely to be passing and it can lead to 20 or 30 gliders all in the same general area.
My thoughts and sympathies are with the families of those who died today.
2Sticks
Picking up what ChilliM says, there can be quite high concentrations of gliders on competition weekends which are quite popular at this time of year. While the Notams I think usually declare the comps. there isn't an easy way of communicating the tasks which are always set immediately before the comp starts, to the general GA fraternity who are likely to be passing and it can lead to 20 or 30 gliders all in the same general area.
My thoughts and sympathies are with the families of those who died today.
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Firstly my sympathies to those related in todays accident.
Secondly, regarding the statements here about the density of traffic below/around controlled airspace. Has anyone got any figures to support the view that traffic density is getting any worse?
In my opinion things that are difficult to see in flight are:-
1 microlights
2 gliders
3 small helicopters
4 any aircraft on a fixed straight and level for long periods.
It is partly down to pilots to make themselves as visible as possible as well as looking and avoiding others. Gentle turns will display a bigger profile than someone sticking to a dead straight line on a GPS !!
Secondly, regarding the statements here about the density of traffic below/around controlled airspace. Has anyone got any figures to support the view that traffic density is getting any worse?
In my opinion things that are difficult to see in flight are:-
1 microlights
2 gliders
3 small helicopters
4 any aircraft on a fixed straight and level for long periods.
It is partly down to pilots to make themselves as visible as possible as well as looking and avoiding others. Gentle turns will display a bigger profile than someone sticking to a dead straight line on a GPS !!
With regard to traffic density, the one thing that has changed markedly in recent years is the popularity of light aviation. Microlights, for example, seem to make up a significant proportion of the new registrations published in the mags every month.
The other key issue is the "honeypot effect" around VORs, VRPs, bottlenecks between controlled airspace etc. How many people routinely plot a VFR route using convenient VRPs on the chart?
If we were to get into the habit of using other features as TPs or waypoints, then I'm sure could reduce the concentration of traffic in some areas. I routinely fly into an airfield where on weekdays the joining and leaving procedure is via one VRP to the South. You need a dozen pairs of eyes on occassion, as aircraft travelling in opposite directions, some non-radio, all converge over one small village.
Plaistows is a busy microlight strip, complete with a thriving school, yet also happens to be in an area where low level traffic will be routing around the gap between London CTR and Luton CTA. As the strip is close to a very prominent motorway junction, often used as a waypoint when routing around that way, it's almost inevitable that traffic densities there will be higher than average.
Add in the fact that en-route VFR traffic may be concentrating on checking where they are at that waypoint, and microlight traffic heading into Plaistows will be concentrating on their join and approach to the strip, and you have some of the ingredients for a terrible tragedy like this.
The other key issue is the "honeypot effect" around VORs, VRPs, bottlenecks between controlled airspace etc. How many people routinely plot a VFR route using convenient VRPs on the chart?
If we were to get into the habit of using other features as TPs or waypoints, then I'm sure could reduce the concentration of traffic in some areas. I routinely fly into an airfield where on weekdays the joining and leaving procedure is via one VRP to the South. You need a dozen pairs of eyes on occassion, as aircraft travelling in opposite directions, some non-radio, all converge over one small village.
Plaistows is a busy microlight strip, complete with a thriving school, yet also happens to be in an area where low level traffic will be routing around the gap between London CTR and Luton CTA. As the strip is close to a very prominent motorway junction, often used as a waypoint when routing around that way, it's almost inevitable that traffic densities there will be higher than average.
Add in the fact that en-route VFR traffic may be concentrating on checking where they are at that waypoint, and microlight traffic heading into Plaistows will be concentrating on their join and approach to the strip, and you have some of the ingredients for a terrible tragedy like this.
Only goes to show the importance of a proper look out and good airmanship
The history of human factors in most areas of aviation progresses along a similar path. It starts with the pilot getting blamed for not being good enough. Gradually, as science and medicine advances, and particularly as those well known to the guys who make the rules turn out not to be good enough either, we realise that the human animal is not capable of reliably performing the task that some of us have been proven not good enough to do. So then we take a rather more practical approach, and start to make some real progress by teaching pilots about their limitations and associated risks, as well as using technology to supplement the frail human.
For some reason, probably related to the fact that all the money is in commerical aviation conducted under IFR in controlled airspace, we're a long way behind in this process with regard to see and avoid in GA.
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Buster the Bear said "
posted 6th July 2004 20:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
valenii, who is going to pay for this protection? Nothing in life is free, well apart from obtaining an ATC servive in the FIR?
If you want radar coverage someone will have to provide it for you, so are you and all other private flyers prepared to pay for such a service?
Probably no? Anyway, there are not enough validated radar ATCO's available in the UK to provide airport radar, let alone LARS and if you expect the MOD/Smiler Blair/You & I as tax payers to foot the bill, think again.
10/20 years ago life was different. Sadly today, airports and ATC units are there to maximise profits for airport operators and until such time TCAS is mandatory for ALL flyers, Mark 1 eyeball is all that can be relied upon."
Well Buster ALL airplane users pay a significant amount in taxation (duty as well as VAT). As we dont yet have hypothecation here then we must assume those taxes may be used for services to GA and CAT alike. There are many many arguments about this of course and one major problem is the extent of controlled airspace that may or may not be used except on occasions. If we are going to all have to pay for that which we use then perhaps we should be looking at the airports paying a "rent" on the VOLUME of airspace they wish to control. I bet that would reduce the amount of controlled airspace where one can be told on first contact "keep clear"
posted 6th July 2004 20:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
valenii, who is going to pay for this protection? Nothing in life is free, well apart from obtaining an ATC servive in the FIR?
If you want radar coverage someone will have to provide it for you, so are you and all other private flyers prepared to pay for such a service?
Probably no? Anyway, there are not enough validated radar ATCO's available in the UK to provide airport radar, let alone LARS and if you expect the MOD/Smiler Blair/You & I as tax payers to foot the bill, think again.
10/20 years ago life was different. Sadly today, airports and ATC units are there to maximise profits for airport operators and until such time TCAS is mandatory for ALL flyers, Mark 1 eyeball is all that can be relied upon."
Well Buster ALL airplane users pay a significant amount in taxation (duty as well as VAT). As we dont yet have hypothecation here then we must assume those taxes may be used for services to GA and CAT alike. There are many many arguments about this of course and one major problem is the extent of controlled airspace that may or may not be used except on occasions. If we are going to all have to pay for that which we use then perhaps we should be looking at the airports paying a "rent" on the VOLUME of airspace they wish to control. I bet that would reduce the amount of controlled airspace where one can be told on first contact "keep clear"
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I'm with bookworm on this. How often have you been given very precise traffic information when under an RIS, but totally failed to see the traffic -- even when you know where to look. Personally, I fail to see more than half the radar contacts called. See and avoid does not work well alone.
RIS works because you are given a 'heads-up,' you are looking out, and you will (almost always) see the contact if it's going to become a real collision hazard.
Most of us complain about compulsory Mode S for VFR in the future. However, compulsory squawking will greatly reduce the chance of collisions such as this Herfordshire one, either through better visibility to radar services or through better technology in the cockpit, such as the mini-TCAS systems which are now coming on the market.
AA.
RIS works because you are given a 'heads-up,' you are looking out, and you will (almost always) see the contact if it's going to become a real collision hazard.
Most of us complain about compulsory Mode S for VFR in the future. However, compulsory squawking will greatly reduce the chance of collisions such as this Herfordshire one, either through better visibility to radar services or through better technology in the cockpit, such as the mini-TCAS systems which are now coming on the market.
AA.
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There has been an increase in VLA and Microlights (perhaps we should ban them)JOKE and with the lower skill level involved in pilot trainning, combined with a cockpit full of stuff to look at, many pilots don't look outside.
I have flown with pilots who just continaully fiddle with their GPS etc, and fail to see any other traffic.
VFR means LOOK OUT THE WINDOW
Tony
I have flown with pilots who just continaully fiddle with their GPS etc, and fail to see any other traffic.
VFR means LOOK OUT THE WINDOW
Tony
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If you want radar coverage someone will have to provide it for you, so are you and all other private flyers prepared to pay for such a service?
I think this kind of thing shows the fallacy in arguing for continuing to have aircraft/balloons/microlights etc flying around without a transponder. Whether its Mode S or Mode C is possibly a different argument.
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Bookworm,
My point exactly. We as humans are not very good at it, so we should spend proportionately more time doing it. I, like TonyR, have experienced pilots to whom looking out is secondary to other less important tasks.
Alphalpha,
As has already been pointed out on this thread (I assume by ATCOs) radars are not reliable for picking up light aircraft. If everyone in that area was receiving a RIS, there would be bedlam. No one would be able to get a word in edgeways.
As for Mode S. Yes it would be a good idea, but the affordable GA versions of TCAS (as far as I know) do not give an azimuth for contacts. It would be worse than a RIS. Also will microlights be required to carry a mode s Transponder?
My point exactly. We as humans are not very good at it, so we should spend proportionately more time doing it. I, like TonyR, have experienced pilots to whom looking out is secondary to other less important tasks.
Alphalpha,
As has already been pointed out on this thread (I assume by ATCOs) radars are not reliable for picking up light aircraft. If everyone in that area was receiving a RIS, there would be bedlam. No one would be able to get a word in edgeways.
As for Mode S. Yes it would be a good idea, but the affordable GA versions of TCAS (as far as I know) do not give an azimuth for contacts. It would be worse than a RIS. Also will microlights be required to carry a mode s Transponder?
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QDM,
the problem with 1000' and below is the military boys - how many times have you been directly underflown by helicopters, transporters etc....... I know I have been spooked a couple of times because of how late you sometimes see these things.
A
the problem with 1000' and below is the military boys - how many times have you been directly underflown by helicopters, transporters etc....... I know I have been spooked a couple of times because of how late you sometimes see these things.
A
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the problem with 1000' and below is the military boys - how many times have you been directly underflown by helicopters, transporters etc....... I know I have been spooked a couple of times because of how late you sometimes see these things.
Most VFR traffic seems to try and stick at 2000 feet on the nail. Most unwise.
QDM
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Tony R
<<There has been an increase in VLA and Microlights (perhaps we should ban them)JOKE and with the lower skill level involved in pilot trainning, combined with a cockpit full of stuff to look at, many pilots don't look outside.>>
Not sure about your comments re micro / VLA pilots and a lower skill level - presumably you refer to NPPL.
Just the sort of divisive comment to split the flying community. To be frank, most micro pilots I know achieve 100+ hours a year rely totally on VFR and are exceptional pilots displaying great airmanship. More than can be said for Club renters who stay current with 10/12 hours a year and are distracted with electronic nav aids and other 'in cockpit' toys.
The crash yesterday sickened me to the stomach as it would any individual and the thought of rotor blades and flex wing pilots is enough to give anyone nightmares. Praise the heli pilot for getting down safely and deepest sympathy for the micro pilot and passenger. But please don't start suggesting that the fault is at the door of the NPPL or perceived poor skills of the micro pilot.
Maybe an unfortunate choice of words, but Tony - that didn't come across too well to me and smacked of laying the blame before an investigation has even started
Tony (H)
<<There has been an increase in VLA and Microlights (perhaps we should ban them)JOKE and with the lower skill level involved in pilot trainning, combined with a cockpit full of stuff to look at, many pilots don't look outside.>>
Not sure about your comments re micro / VLA pilots and a lower skill level - presumably you refer to NPPL.
Just the sort of divisive comment to split the flying community. To be frank, most micro pilots I know achieve 100+ hours a year rely totally on VFR and are exceptional pilots displaying great airmanship. More than can be said for Club renters who stay current with 10/12 hours a year and are distracted with electronic nav aids and other 'in cockpit' toys.
The crash yesterday sickened me to the stomach as it would any individual and the thought of rotor blades and flex wing pilots is enough to give anyone nightmares. Praise the heli pilot for getting down safely and deepest sympathy for the micro pilot and passenger. But please don't start suggesting that the fault is at the door of the NPPL or perceived poor skills of the micro pilot.
Maybe an unfortunate choice of words, but Tony - that didn't come across too well to me and smacked of laying the blame before an investigation has even started
Tony (H)
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I think you're misinterpreting TonyR's comment.
In essence he is saying that we now have licenses that are less demanding to acquire.
At the same time we have more cockpit gadgets to distract us.
This is general and not aimed at any particular group as the gadgets tend to be in SEP rather than microlights.
I would add to his comments:-
We have a wider disparity between speeds. There are a lot of hot-ship SEP's both production and homebuilt and we also have a large increase in the population of low'n'slow types, including powered parachutes and flexwings.
There is, rightly, more emhasis on airspace busts. Maybe everyone knows about the prosecutions and is spending too much time heads-down checking their nav.
With conventional radio nav you set the OBS and keep the needle centred. There ain't much to look at down there so you are looking out of the window most of the time. Many people do not seem to take the same approach to GPS nav, i.e. enter a route before getting airborne and follow the HSI.
We as pilots do not seem to be coping well. I wonder whether "invisible motorbike syndrome" also has a part to play.
Mike
In essence he is saying that we now have licenses that are less demanding to acquire.
At the same time we have more cockpit gadgets to distract us.
This is general and not aimed at any particular group as the gadgets tend to be in SEP rather than microlights.
I would add to his comments:-
We have a wider disparity between speeds. There are a lot of hot-ship SEP's both production and homebuilt and we also have a large increase in the population of low'n'slow types, including powered parachutes and flexwings.
There is, rightly, more emhasis on airspace busts. Maybe everyone knows about the prosecutions and is spending too much time heads-down checking their nav.
With conventional radio nav you set the OBS and keep the needle centred. There ain't much to look at down there so you are looking out of the window most of the time. Many people do not seem to take the same approach to GPS nav, i.e. enter a route before getting airborne and follow the HSI.
We as pilots do not seem to be coping well. I wonder whether "invisible motorbike syndrome" also has a part to play.
Mike
My point exactly. We as humans are not very good at it, so we should spend proportionately more time doing it.
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Boomerangben:
The point that I was trying to make was (a) see and avoid in general does not work well; (b) squawking makes you more visible both to radar units and to mini-TCAS devices -- both of these will give you a 'heads-up' on potential conflicts and increase the chance of see-and-avoid working. Hope this is now clearer.
QDMQDMQDM:
The advice from the military (when discussing the military low flying system at the CAA safety evenings) was to avoid the height band below 2000 feet and especially below 1000 feet. This was, I guess, to minimise the chance of conflict with low-flying military traffic, rather than other GA traffic.
AA.
The point that I was trying to make was (a) see and avoid in general does not work well; (b) squawking makes you more visible both to radar units and to mini-TCAS devices -- both of these will give you a 'heads-up' on potential conflicts and increase the chance of see-and-avoid working. Hope this is now clearer.
QDMQDMQDM:
The advice from the military (when discussing the military low flying system at the CAA safety evenings) was to avoid the height band below 2000 feet and especially below 1000 feet. This was, I guess, to minimise the chance of conflict with low-flying military traffic, rather than other GA traffic.
AA.