Parachute when aerobatting?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Following on from the 'Chipmunk seat' thread, how many on here wear a 'chute when aerobatting? I used to in the Yak, mainly because it was there and formed the seat base. We dont in the Chippy, but I wonder if we should? (We only do simple aeros in the Chippy, so unlikely to overstress it).

Thoughts please?

SSD

[FNG]

Parachute always

I have taken to wearing my parachute (a lightweight National backpack) all the time (OK, not in the bath). It's not just the wings falling off that I'm thinking of, but also midairs (glider pilots in glider vs glider collisions often bail-out successfully). Given that aerobatic aircraft would be easier to jump out of than most tourers, it seems to me a good idea to wear a chute whilst flying, although if the engine failed I'd still try to land the thing. Could be a lot of clobber if also life-jacketed whilst crossing water.

PS: Evo: tomorrow, I'm bringing a spare for you, but it's a 200 year old seat parachute that makes you walk like a spavined baboon.

[yakker]

I agree with FNG, if you have a mid-air or aircraft break up you can at least bail out. The military wear them all the time, and not just while aerobatting. I think it makes sense, no matter what others say. But have a bail out height if it all goes wrong, the military was 'if we havent recovered by 3000' bail out'.

[Evo]

PS: Evo: tomorrow, I'm bringing a spare for you, but it's a 200 year old seat parachute that makes you walk like a spavined baboon.

Parachutes? You're obviously thinking of letting me have a go. A "one careful owner" parachute is fine, even if the careful owner was Lavoisier.

Anyway, that's the way the ex-RAF hotshots all walk, isn't it?

[TonyR]

I think its a good idea, but it is important to be very comfortable when flying aeros.

Also it would be difficult to exit from some aircraft type.

I used to wear a chute when flying a jump aircraft but it never worked really well with the cessna seats.

I think it was last year when a Skydiver hit the tail of a Cessana Caravan after leaving the aircraft, the pilot lost control and had to "jump" the pilot got down safely but the guy who hit the tail died.

[Rallye Driver]

Like FNG, I wear one where practical - in the Yak and Bulldog - and also a bone dome.

I had a very close shave with a C152 last year, which hadn't seen me (I recognised the aircraft and spoke to the instructor later in the day), and despite my best efforts to avoid it came very close indeed. At least I would have had a chance to get out if the worst had happened.

RD

[englishal]

Hmm...interesting post. I would when doing Aero's, without a doubt. You've got me thining now, what about on "normal" trips? Doesn't sound like a bad idea, you never know when you're going to have your wings clipped by someone else at FL60 while in IMC.

Whether you'd get out or not is another matter. Maybe something like a TB10/TB20 you'd be ok, or even a 172. Doubtful in a PA28, but its got to be better than nothing.....Although I'd only ever use it in anger during a structural failure (flying into a CB might do that as well, one of my biggest fears, embedded thunderstorms).

EA

[Croqueteer]

When things go wrong, it happens very quickly. I was practicing for a comp in my pitts 1000ft above comp height when I entered an inverted spin off a stall turn, because I was trying to keep a ballsed up figure "looking right". and I still don't know what I was doing wrong during the attempted recovery, because I was thinking all the time, but when I bailed out at about 1200ft I had the wrong rudder on, as shown by the gash on my left leg as it hit the panel on the way out. If you are going earthward at about 4000ft/min in an upside down spin, with only a wood in sight, it is difficult to explain to the bar-room experts why you did not try this or that. I thought I was a fairly experienced areobatic pilot, but after years of reading flight safety mags like "Air Clues" when in the RAF, and civil accident reports, I was conditioned to jump out if things went wrong. How many spinning fatalities have you read about when a parachute was worn and not used? Please wear a chute for aeros, and also if the aircraft seat is designed for them like the Stampe or the Chipmunk, and especially as the Chipmunk has not got the best of spinning records. Before anyone brings height into the discussion, my american ex airforce seat pack chute is reckoned to work from about 200ft if you have airspeed. It is also essential to keep in training, usually done by the guy that packs you chute at your local parachute centre, and by this I mean training done at ground level. Don't turn an insurance write-off into a wake!

[stiknruda]

I wear one in my Pitts at all times but you just have to look at the quality of my welding to realise why!

Croq - I know who you are!

Stik

[Flyin'Dutch']

SSD,

I would like to ask the question: 'Why not?'

It's a bit like crossing the Channel without a lifejacket/raft.

I would just hate ever to be in the position having the time to reflect and think I wish I had!

It may well be that you do 'gentle' aerobatics but your predecessor's activities may have pushed the limit.

Ciao

FD

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Never used to wear one when flying aeros in the UK. In France you have to wear one by law, and I find it quite reassuring.

To re-affirm what Croqueteer said, things which seem easy sometimes aren't when you don't know what's happening to the aeroplane. I learnt inverted spin recoveries to the point where I could do them safely (didn't like them), but when I entered an incipient inverted spin in a Pitts S2A, it was a good thing there was an instructor in front to recover. It was very disorienting.

[FNG]

Parachutes for ordinary tourers

Reading the thread about engines falling off leads me to wonder when private pilots generally stopped wearing parachutes. Did this come with the advent of the metal trainer/tourers of the 50s, with their car-like interiors and doors, or a little earlier?

[bcfc]

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Can't argue with that, but one has to make a value judgement here. Otherwise you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?

So it comes down to:
Does aerobatting a Chippie (loops, rolls, stall turns only) increase the risk of loss of the aeroplane sufficiently to justify the cost and inconvienience of supplying, maintaining, and wearing 'chutes?

Also, I often carry an inexperienced passenger. Here's a moral dilemma for you: you get into an inadvertant spin that seems not to want to recover following standard recovery procedure. You throw open the canopy, and shout to your (well briefed) passsenger to jump. They freeze (I can almost guarantee they will). You still have 3000 feet, and it's still spinning. But there a few more things you know you could try to un-spin it.

Do you stay to try something to save the situation, or do you jump. If you jump, survive, and the passenger dies in the crash of the aeroplane, how will you feel?

SSD

[Rod1]

So, mid air collisions and loosing control in aerobatics have been given as reasons, what about fire?

Do you all wear flying suits and boots too?

Rod1

[FNG]

That's a legitimate question. Alex Henshaw bailed out of his first aeroplane because it was on fire. We've often discussed the flying suit thing, inconclusively. On one view, even spam canners should wear fireproof kit, but it's unlikely that this will happen. I have a nomex suit, but hardly ever wear it, although I do wear gloves, usually wear a flying jacket, and wouldn't go flying in, say, a fleece.

[yakker]

SSD

"Can't argue with that, but one has to make a value judgement here. Otherwise you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?"

Do car drivers wear seat belts, motorcyclists wear crash helmets, just in case? Whats wrong with flying suits and parachutes. after all its your life.

"Do you stay to try something to save the situation, or do you jump. If you jump, survive, and the passenger dies in the crash of the aeroplane, how will you feel?"

Upset, but still breathing, after all you gave a thorough briefing. I'm sure if you were in an aircraft and the pilot ejected you would follow bl**dy quickly.

[ShyTorque]

Just seems common sense to me. Given the choice, I would rather spend money on a 'chute than on an increase in life insurance premiums.

It also gives you the option of leaving the aircraft if the terrain isn't suitable for a forced landing, or if you can't see the ground and don't know.

[paulo]

There's probably quite a few people who'd use them - at least for single or two seaters - but for the cost. (Daft, arguably). Assuming you trust the 'keeper' (your group, your club, whoever) then why do we all need our own chutes?

And if we don't, it's no longer a two grand outlay (for a 2 seater pilot, say), but something you could rent for a fiver a go or whatever. Some people might balk at that aswell, but I'd guess there'd be more takeup if we didn't all have to go out and buy 1 rig per pilot, 1 rig per potential passenger.

[Lowtimer]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Going out for a 1000 foot mooch around in the Cub or Moth, I don't find the absence of a parachute troubling, nor do I in a PA-28, which I don't think would be at all easy to get out of in an emergency, even if the seat could accommodate me and a parachute.

Don't feel bothered flying the Firefly around gently without a parachute, but I'm not going to spin it without out. If I'm flying the Yak I always wear a parachute these days. And in anything without a PA-28 style saloon-car interior (Cub, Moth, Yak, Firefly etc) I do also wear a proper flying suit and a bone dome. Perhaps I should in the PA-28 as well, perhaps I'm being inconsistent.

I think Yakker makes a very good point about passenger briefings needing to include the use of the parachute, and the instructions you will give. This is what you get when you fly in a military aeroplane, and it does mean you need to spend longer working on the briefing and delivering it. Pax briefings for the non-type-experienced have to be a lot more thorough for tandem cockpits in any case, as you can't necessarily help the other person in-flight, or see what they're doing. For example, I always make a passenger new to the Yak practice opening and closing the canopy to its various settings while I'm watching, just so that we both know they can do it properly.