Parachute when aerobatting?

[Chimbu chuckles]

An interesting topic indeed.

Years ago, and I mean almost 20, when I was doing aeros a lot I never wore one, but did when meat bombing in case someone wrapped themselves around the tail on exit.

I would these days as I'm not as brave/stupid as I was in my early 20s.

It excercises my brain that on one occasion, if I had a chute I would definately have used it. We didn't and recovered from the spin under 500'....well under.

I believe the transition from 'wearing all the kit' to flying in shirtsleeves began in the 50s when Cessna, Piper etc started marketing flying as something 'everyone can do'....'like driving a car' etc. In a, arguably successful, campaign to sell more aircraft they needed to make it seem as attainable as a drivers licence...wearing special clothing and parachutes was not conducive to attracting the masses to aviation.

Having said that I would not even think about walking out to my Bonanza in a flying suite, wearing a slim pak...but these days I would if I was flying aeros in a Pitts etc or flying vintage aircraft such as a Harvard etc. Same could be argued for a bone dome...I've seen a guy wearing one in a C206 while bush flying and thought he was a prat...I think it would be a good idea in an aerobatic aircraft where a loose/failing harness or a loose/failed manoeuvre could see you whack your head on the canopy.

Chuck

[chrisN]

Gliding Club parachutes

Following the successful use of 'chutes in the famous Dunstable Lightning strike, virtually all gliding clubs now have 'chutes for all two-seater flights. The Dunstable case was a trial lesson, with someone of mature years (I believe) having their first flight. It seems that careful briefing was an essential part of the life saving on that occasion (both people lost their hearing temporarily from the noise of the strike).

(See http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_500699.hcsp if you want to read all about it.)


All trial lesson students are briefed on use of the parachute before their first flight.

That case was an extremely rare one, but it became a wake-up call for a large part of the gliding movement. Most of us realised that we had a duty of care to student pilots and visitors. It was expensive (about £8,000 for my fairly small gliding club, plus annual repack costs) but who could justify not spending it, if asked to in a coroner's court?

Gliding club 'chutes are normally repacked regularly - at least once each year, in many cases more often. It does wear them out to some extent, but some of the most reputable makers only allow them to have a 15 year life anyway. Privately owned 'chutes may be repacked less frequently, because they tend to have a known history and are less prone to being poorly looked after.

[FNG]

Ballistic chutes: very good idea. Anyone know the weight and balance numbers for a Tiger Moth with a ballistic chute?

IO, I appreciate that you think that any aeroplane over twenty years old should be confiscated by the Government and put on a bonfire, but a few of us deluded sentimentalists would like the ratty old heaps to continue flying, and retro-fitting ballistic chutes would not be practical in many cases. Let them by all means be fitted to modern aircraft, but let us hope also that they don't become a Volvo factor (which, if I interpret Widebody's post correctly, is all that he was saying: he was certainly not suggesting that anyone deserved to crash and burn).

I had a look at a Cirrus the other day: very impressive. If I was into that sort of flying, I woud certainly covet one most egregiously.

PS: 83, although it is true that we are not drilled to abandon our aircraft like the military are, I don't think that's a reason not to wear a chute. I am pretty sure that if I broke the wings, caught fire, or midaired and survived, I would jump out pretty darn sharpish, but I do worry that if I was in an irrecoverable spin I might spend too much time trying to recover and leave it too late to bail. I still think that wearing the chute is a good plan, though.

[stiknruda]

83 - last Friday I put a homebuilt through its permit flight test. The second part of this test was the aerobatic test schedule.

I started the test in the firmament above open farm land. I performed the test incrementally, rolls, loops, rolls off the top, stall turns... thus the last thing to demonstrate/observe was spin recovery. One turn spin to the left, clinb back up to the Gods, one turn to the right, climb, two left, climb 2 right, etc.

I had told the owner AND MADE SURE THAT HE UNDERSTOOD that if the aircraft had not recovered by 2,000' agl, I would be stepping out of it.

That decision was made on the ground and I would not change it mid sortie. As it was the aircraft performed as expected and jumping never became an issue but I was prepared to do it.

I haven't parachuted for nearly 25 years and I have no desire to unless I bust a self imposed trigger height.

Stik

[FNG]

Re Bone domes and G: Fast jet pilots and Formula One drivers wear tin hats but don't break their necks going aroung corners. Admittedly, they work out in the gym a bit more than us lard-loving private flyers (I love the hilarious scene in "Top Gun" in which Tom and Val strut about in towels flexing their pecs at each other: that film has never recovered from Tarantino's commentary on it at the end of the minor indy hit "Sleep with Me") . The lightweight helmets mentioned above don't seem to make your head weigh too much.

[Southern Cross]

Without having tabs on the exact data, my understanding is that there is ample anecdotal evidence of pilot's suffering severe head injuries or dying in crashes / forced landing that might / would have been survivable had they been wearing a helmet. It's kind of like wearing a helmet when cycling (actually a legal requirement in NZ and rightly so) or snowboarding: some people might think you look like a bit of a nob, but if it is your head that suffers the impact, will what they think really matter?

Another great reason for wearing a decent helmet is that the visors are, IMHO, vastly superior to wearing sunglasses - the sun can't "leak" around the edges, no pressure points around your ears under your headset....and the helmet won't fall off during aeros - forget the weight issue: unless you are pulling serious G, a good kevlar helmet is not going to impede your ability - most of us have our own faults to thank for that...

And on the flying suit point, for those of us that fly Yaks or the like, the likelihood that one will get oil on one's clothing is inevitable for every sortie - rather on the flying suit than on one's threads. Plus of course the ability to carry in zipped up pockets all the niks and naks requried to aerobat.

So there.

[IO540]

FNG

O, I appreciate that you think that any aeroplane over twenty years old should be confiscated by the Government and put on a bonfire, but a few of us deluded sentimentalists would like the ratty old heaps to continue flying, and retro-fitting ballistic chutes would not be practical in many cases. Let them by all means be fitted to modern aircraft

I laugh at funny things as much as the next man (or woman) but I really think you ought to get yourself a life.

Did I suggest "retrofitting"?

I will ignore your posts from now on. Like most people here (some of whom genuinely try to make a useful contribution) I spend far too much time already browsing through this pig slow website.

[FNG]

Calm down IO, 99.9% of what I say is an obvious spoof. You make very useful contributions here, even though occasionally the needle appears to be stuck in the groove. Peace unto you and unto the camels of your forefathers.

PS: genuine misunderstanding by me of your comment on the previous page:-


"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes of course..."


PPS: don't go to the pilot and engineer thread. It might make you cross.

[englishal]

but I do worry that if I was in an irrecoverable spin I might spend too much time trying to recover and leave it too late to bail.

Bit like not wearing a parachute then?

Each to their own I say, if I can ever afford a nice new modern SE aircraft, I'll have a ballistic parachute fitted. Actually on the subject of irrecoverable spins, hasn't anyone developed a cheap spin arrestor chute which could be fitted to even the lightest of aircraft? (Like the ones they use for certifying Twins....which obviously don't like coming out of a spin)

EA

[Wide-Body]

IO 540

Think you missed my point. Which was with these 2 incidents the use of the BRS was to mitigate poor airmanship. Admittedly I was trying to do it with humour, I will refrain from such immediately. I notice you also missed FNG's humour, perhaps it was not me after all. As for the CAA not approving them, they must have sound reasoning. Of course IO 540 if you know better than the airworthiness regulatory authorities I am sure they will be pleased to hear your point.

Regards

Wide

[FNG]

OK, you've got the parachute, now what?

So, let us suppose that we have decided to wear parachutes all the time, or at least whilst aerobatting. Should we go to a parachuting centre and do a practice jump, so that we have actual experience of a parachute descent? Analogies here with a PFL down to the flare in a field, or to an engine-off landing on the airfield, or a wet and wild ditching course.

I discussed this with my wife last night, and we decided that the answer is "no", on the basis that there's no point participating in one dangerous activity in order to prepare yourself for surviving another (my wife thinks that I do too much dangerous stuff anyway, what with the ski-mountaineering, the rock climbing, and the appearing in front of His Honour Judge Harry Bonkers QC). Jumping out entails risks: the thing may not open, you have no reserve, and you may land badly, but it's a last resort option preferable to staying in.

[eharding]

I was talking about this with my brother-in-law the other day - the Army has on-and-off paid him to throw himself out of perfectly good aeroplanes purely for the hell of it - and he was of the opinion that a practice jump or two would be a good idea if you regularly strap on parachute for safety purposes - he was citing his experience in his first couple of jumps of having "tunnel vision", which he didn't experience thereafter.

The *real* risk FNG is that you might get a taste for it.... and then it will be nothing but lycra jumpsuits, skydiving strapped to a surfboard and high-fives all round.

[freefallfun]

I thought the majority of pilot parachute rigs were round canopies? If that's the case then you'll be hard pressed to find a skydiving centre that still uses "rounds" where you could get trained and do a jump. These days we start people on "Square" Ram Air canopies.

I'm sure that there would be some merit in learning the technique for PLF's (Parachute Landing Fall) which is required when you land under a round. A Static line 1st jump course would include a section on PLF’s as many skydiving centres use round reserve canopies and so you need to know how to land under one should the need arise.

If anyone want’s the details of their local parachute centre the British Parachute Association has a listing on their web site -> http://www.bpa.org.uk

Oh and I agree with eharding that the biggest risk is getting hooked on jumping. I just went to do a one off jump 9 years ago and I’m still at it! I only “drive” spam cans right now, but when I get my tail wheel conversion finished and BPA jump pilot rating done I’ll be wearing a pilot rig when flying the jump plane at our DZ.

FreeFallFun


(Edited for grammar mistake)

[Croqueteer]

FNG, sorry for the late reply, I've just had two weeks sitting on the balcony of a Canadian lakeside cottage with my G & T. No, I did not get a caterpillar club bage because my chute was not an Irvine. On the subject of bone domes, I was aware of my head being chucked about in the spin because of the weight of my hard hat. Also "simple" areos like a barrel roll or in particular a stall turn can easily give you a scare.

[FNG]

Mmmmm, the lycra jumpsuit sounds pretty special, although these days my flying suit fits pretty snugly in places. Can't think why.

Croqueteer, I hope you managed more than one G&T at the cottage in Canuckistan (I assume Upper Ontario? lovely part of the world, must floatplane it one day).

I ain't jumping out of no stoopid aeroplane 'lessn it be brokken. Anyway, I refuse to participate in a sport in which people say "gnarly, dude", and so forth.

[yakker]

freefallfun, yes our 'chutes are round, not so easy to find someone to repack. It was suggested to try a jump, and learn the correct way to land. But if I have just leapt from an aircraft then a broken bone or two would be the least of my worries!

[FNG]

Gliding clubs are the place to go for repacking of emergency chutes. Booker, for example. I gather that Martin Baker might do it, but would charge big wonga.

[freefallfun]

Yakker,

Rounds used for the purpose of reserve canopies are still out there in the skydiving world, albeit not the norm. Most BPA riggers and some BPA advanced packers would be able to re-pack a round pilot rig. Skydivers get their kit checked and reserves re-packed every 6 months.Find your local drop zone and ask there if you ever struggle to find someone to re-pack your rig.

I started my skydiving doing 19 descents under rounds. In my experience you don't land a round canopy, you simply "arrive".

All together everyone, "Feet and knees together!"

FreeFallFun

(edited for typos)

[MLS-12D]

you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?

Perhaps, but I tend not to worry too much about what other people think (or, more accurately, what they "might think"). Some might consider it a tad OTT to check the fuel for moisture before every flight, too.

It's a personal decision. On my part, I wear a chute whenever I have the chance. Essentially, that means in every glider, and in Harvards. I would wear a chute in other aircraft too, except that no chute is available, and/or the aircraft design doesn't permit a quick exit (think PA28).

Re your moral dilemma: if I am going to fly with a pax and we have chutes, the bale-out procedure is part of the pre-flight briefing. If the worst later happens and I have to give the command to get out and walk, I know that I will not be sticking around to have a debate. I might however freeze myself ... can't predict that one in advance.

Do you all wear flying suits and boots too?

Yes in Harvards (gloves too); not in anything else (perhaps I should).

[chrisN]

'Chute repacking - by whom?

FNG wrote: "Gliding clubs are the place to go for repacking of emergency chutes." [snip]

Two points, if I may:

1. Most gliding clubs have their 'chutes repacked by certified riggers elsewhere. It is rare to have one within a gliding club.

2. I would only use a rigger/repacker certified on the make of 'chute in question. I once had my 'chute repacked by a parachute club person, and they did it wrong - found at the next repack by someone who was suitably qualified. (The drogue had been packed inside out and did not spring out in the way it should, when the D ring was pulled.)

Irvin/GQ are reputed not to warrant their 'chutes unless repacked by themselves or people they have certified. I can understand why, and support their logic, if true.

Chris N.