Parachute when aerobatting?
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Pax briefings for the non-type-experienced have to be a lot more thorough for tandem cockpits in any case, as you can't necessarily help the other person in-flight, or see what they're doing. For example, I always make a passenger new to the Yak practice opening and closing the canopy to its various settings while I'm watching, just so that we both know they can do it properly.
I completely agree with this, and it's exactly what I do. But if the worst happens, I don't think most would jump if ordered; at least not until it's too late (you probaly havn't got even seconds to spare if it really happens).
Not than I'm advocating not using 'chutes - like I said at the beginning, I wonder if we should in the Chippie. I just want to hear all the arguments, both ways
.
SSD
I completely agree with this, and it's exactly what I do. But if the worst happens, I don't think most would jump if ordered; at least not until it's too late (you probaly havn't got even seconds to spare if it really happens).
Not than I'm advocating not using 'chutes - like I said at the beginning, I wonder if we should in the Chippie. I just want to hear all the arguments, both ways
.SSD
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Yakker and Lowtimer: both make excellent points.
In the Bulldog, the POH recommends bailing out over water as opposed to ditching. In the Yak if you don't recover from an out of control manouevre by 3000 feet you bail out, front seat first.
So, a thorough PAX briefing is always necessary, and, I can imagine a bail out isn't easy unless inverted. But a wearing a parachute at least gives you the option.
Parachutes have finite packing limits, so I wear one whenever practical.
I know a PA28 isn't ideal for the P1 to get out in any emergency, but even then I wear flying boots, long trousers and long sleeved shirt - you never know when something "interesting" may happen.
RD
In the Bulldog, the POH recommends bailing out over water as opposed to ditching. In the Yak if you don't recover from an out of control manouevre by 3000 feet you bail out, front seat first.
So, a thorough PAX briefing is always necessary, and, I can imagine a bail out isn't easy unless inverted. But a wearing a parachute at least gives you the option.
Parachutes have finite packing limits, so I wear one whenever practical.
I know a PA28 isn't ideal for the P1 to get out in any emergency, but even then I wear flying boots, long trousers and long sleeved shirt - you never know when something "interesting" may happen.
RD
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Making parachutes available for rental by clubs might be an idea. Glider clubs and skydiving outfits do this, although in the latter case, of course, there is far greater expertise in packing and handling chutes than would ordinarily be available at a flying club. There would always be the worry "what has someone done with this parachute?" I treat mine quite gingerly, being careful where I put it down etc, and have even thought paranoid thoughts about leaving it on a chair at a club whilst I am elsewhere. Rented ones might be stood on, used to soak up coffee etc.
As for safety kit in general, each sport has a variable culture as to what people wear. Forty years ago, few amateur riders wore hard hats, now almost all do, and some wear back protection. In skiing and snowboarding, it is becoming more common to see adults wearing helmets (and even body armour off-piste). In flying, things have gone the other way. It seems that private flyers until about the 1950s often wore flying kit, but now generally do not. The parallel with driving is obvious: Mr Toad in his roadster wore a driving coat, gloves and goggles, although mainly for protection from the elements. Old aeroplanes were of course colder and oilier than modern ones, so the kit was practical quite apart from safety considerations.
PS: Croqueteer, well done. Did you get a Caterpillar tie?
As for safety kit in general, each sport has a variable culture as to what people wear. Forty years ago, few amateur riders wore hard hats, now almost all do, and some wear back protection. In skiing and snowboarding, it is becoming more common to see adults wearing helmets (and even body armour off-piste). In flying, things have gone the other way. It seems that private flyers until about the 1950s often wore flying kit, but now generally do not. The parallel with driving is obvious: Mr Toad in his roadster wore a driving coat, gloves and goggles, although mainly for protection from the elements. Old aeroplanes were of course colder and oilier than modern ones, so the kit was practical quite apart from safety considerations.
PS: Croqueteer, well done. Did you get a Caterpillar tie?
Last edited by FNG; 12th May 2004 at 05:58.
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Lowtimer mentioned a bone-dome above. Considering the number of head injuries that arise from forced landings, I wonder if there is any merit in carrying some cycling helmets in the cabin and only donning them when a PFL situation arises. I suppose one could wear them, or better a pukka helmet, all the time I wouldn't want to do that.
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Scrabbling to find and put on a bike helmet whilst setting up for a forced landing (NB there is no P in this situation) does not sound very enticing, particularly with headsets on. I am probably going to buy a couple of the DC plastic shell helmets (although Wide Body sensibly suggests that I go for the full kevlar dome).
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I think you'll find that to be the standard kit-issue for North Weald tractor drivers after the recent risk assessment by the Council's Safety Nazi department.
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With regard to pax briefing and worrying about whether or not they would actually jump:
I used to finish my pre-flight abandonment brief on the RAF Bulldog by saying that if in flight he / she heard the words "JUMP, JUMP, JUMP!" but wasn't sure what I said, I had the words " FOLLOW" and "ME" written in white paint on the soles of my boots.
On reaching the aircraft, a passenger always had to carry out a practice abandonment drill before being allowed to fly.
I used to finish my pre-flight abandonment brief on the RAF Bulldog by saying that if in flight he / she heard the words "JUMP, JUMP, JUMP!" but wasn't sure what I said, I had the words " FOLLOW" and "ME" written in white paint on the soles of my boots.
On reaching the aircraft, a passenger always had to carry out a practice abandonment drill before being allowed to fly.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 12th May 2004 at 18:31.
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I love the story of the "Bulldog cabriolet", where the stude jumped out of the spinning Bulldog on orders from the instructor, who flew it home topless after the thing righted itself on the departure of the student.
The Cessna Aerobat has removable seat cushions to accommodate a parachute. It also has a big red handle by each door that when pulled removes the hinge pins from the doors. This suggests to me that one might find it impossible to open the doors of the average spamcan in flight thus rendering the wearing of a parachute irrelevant.
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The student should have jettisoned the canopy iaw the safety brief but just slid it fully back instead and then jumped.
The canopy stayed on but the QFI was subsequently able to recover from the spin and fly back to base, leaving a bemused stude to walk home alone!
There was another spinning acccident sometime afterwards where the pilots both departed from the aircraft but the QFI tragically fell out of his 'chute harness on the way down.
The BOI attributed this to the fact that on some UAS units the 'chutes were left in the aircraft for the next occupant. It was thought that the QFI may have made a cognitive error and inadvertently turned his QRF box to "unlock" during his exit from the seat harness, and accidentally bumped the box on his way out of the aircraft, releasing it.
I always climbed out taking my 'chute with me every time I left the aircraft, to prevent any chance of programming this type of error into my brain. I then returned to the aircraft to replace the 'chute in the seat.
As far as I was concerned, every exit should be an emergency egress practice, rather than the required once a month drill, especially as we were doing aeros and spinning on a regular basis. Obviously, I couldn't practice jettisoning the canopy each time.
These two incidents, where the emergency drill is so close to the normal drill, show how an error can be built in by flawed human response programming
The canopy stayed on but the QFI was subsequently able to recover from the spin and fly back to base, leaving a bemused stude to walk home alone!
There was another spinning acccident sometime afterwards where the pilots both departed from the aircraft but the QFI tragically fell out of his 'chute harness on the way down.
The BOI attributed this to the fact that on some UAS units the 'chutes were left in the aircraft for the next occupant. It was thought that the QFI may have made a cognitive error and inadvertently turned his QRF box to "unlock" during his exit from the seat harness, and accidentally bumped the box on his way out of the aircraft, releasing it.
I always climbed out taking my 'chute with me every time I left the aircraft, to prevent any chance of programming this type of error into my brain. I then returned to the aircraft to replace the 'chute in the seat.
As far as I was concerned, every exit should be an emergency egress practice, rather than the required once a month drill, especially as we were doing aeros and spinning on a regular basis. Obviously, I couldn't practice jettisoning the canopy each time.
These two incidents, where the emergency drill is so close to the normal drill, show how an error can be built in by flawed human response programming
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Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system? At least then you don't have to worry about your pax following you, and if you have people in the back, it is doubtful that any P1 would abandon them
EA
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Having read the last two deployment reports at least one was a get out of jail free card for stupidity. As my other half put it an escape from the Darwin theory. The other was only slightly better.
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Lowtimer said "I also wear a proper flying suit and a bone dome" This gives us another problem, anyone turning up in an ex-RAF flying suit, bone dome, white gloves and parachute is immediately thought of as a Top Gun wannabee. Is this why pilots are reluctant to wear these things, and risk their own safety because of others opinions?
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A fair point, yakker. Would you rather look stupid or be stupid? (the same is said re hi viz, but that's another story, where the safety issues are perhaps rather different). I dont know why the sight of me climbing out of a well known aerobatic type wearing a parachute (green gloves yes, but no hat and no flight suit) should have occasioned such comment at an airfield I visited some weeks ago. Perhaps it's because the sight of a fat git like me climbing out of any aeroplane is moderately amusing.
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Would you rather look stupid or be stupid?
See you tomorrow Yakker?
PS FNG, check your PMs
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Aviation Cliches, Vol 97
To the habitual three most useless things in aviation ("the blue sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel in the bowser"), we might add a fourth: "the parachute in the locker"; but what, pray, is the appropriate etiquette when you find that you have an unexpected passenger and only one parachute? I naturally offered it to the passenger. Equally naturally, we each ended up without it.b
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From the Yak 52 manual.
There are at least seven good reasons when to abandon the aircraft with parachute is the only way to save your life. One would be enough to justify the necessity to always fly with parachute.
1. Aircraft is not recovering from a spin or other type of rotation.
2.Structural damage of the aircraft in flight
3.Controls are jammed, aircraft is out of control
4.Mid-air collision
5.Fire in flight
6.Engine failure over the area where the emergency landing is dangerous (mountains, hills, bad surface, forests or other obstacles)
7.Harness or lock malfunction - you might leave the aircraft suddenly when you don't expect it !
There are at least seven good reasons when to abandon the aircraft with parachute is the only way to save your life. One would be enough to justify the necessity to always fly with parachute.
1. Aircraft is not recovering from a spin or other type of rotation.
2.Structural damage of the aircraft in flight
3.Controls are jammed, aircraft is out of control
4.Mid-air collision
5.Fire in flight
6.Engine failure over the area where the emergency landing is dangerous (mountains, hills, bad surface, forests or other obstacles)
7.Harness or lock malfunction - you might leave the aircraft suddenly when you don't expect it !
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Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system?
For some reason, the CAA won't approve them. Does anyone know why (really why, no speculation).
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In a small, spartan, narrow cockpit which in not well sealed against loose articles getting into mischievous places, one is glad of the map pockets, integral kneepads, pen holders, velcro closures etc.
As for parachutes.....I haven't worn one recently for upside down flying but then I am dubious if I would be able, under the stress of an emergency, to make the decision to abandon the aircraft and effect an exit at sufficient height to make stepping outside a real option.
Military regimentation would make the decision a non event but for a civillian it is a case of, Do I need to get out? Can I rescue the situation? What about wrecking the aeroplane? I haven't practiced 'out out out' how do I do it safely? What is my altitude now? Oh **** I am too low anyway that flat spin was eating up 4,000 feet per minute
Wear a parachute if you are drilled in how to use it. If you are not then dont take un-necessary risks and if you get stuffed....well thats fate for you.
As for Bone Domes...how much does one weigh? Stuff that on top of your kneck and apply 4g to it and see what it could do to your spine!!
Regards
83 etc