Side-slipping
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Sorry TonyR, you wouldn't get me in one of those if you paid me £40 a minute.
If I did go in one it would be under the following criteria....
1. It would have to be painted an obvious colour so I could at least be seen by powered pilots travelling at 140 kts.
2. I would make sure the pilot didn't "hang around" the exit areas from busy airspace and near VOR's like they all seem to.
3. I would have the radio OFF so all that 123.45 garbage wouldn't get in the way of someone actually trying to transmit something useful.
Apart from that would love to!! Any offers?!!!!!
Sorry, but I think the biggest problem and cause of bad PR in low level airspace is the gliding fraternity.
If I did go in one it would be under the following criteria....
1. It would have to be painted an obvious colour so I could at least be seen by powered pilots travelling at 140 kts.
2. I would make sure the pilot didn't "hang around" the exit areas from busy airspace and near VOR's like they all seem to.
3. I would have the radio OFF so all that 123.45 garbage wouldn't get in the way of someone actually trying to transmit something useful.
Apart from that would love to!! Any offers?!!!!!
Sorry, but I think the biggest problem and cause of bad PR in low level airspace is the gliding fraternity.
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I never had a radio in any glider I was in but it is 20 years since I have sat in one, I must go for a flight soon,
There is the Ulster gliding club over here in "not so busy airspace", give me a call and fly over, they welcome GA and have a big 800 x 600 M field to land in any direction.
Tony
There is the Ulster gliding club over here in "not so busy airspace", give me a call and fly over, they welcome GA and have a big 800 x 600 M field to land in any direction.
Tony
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Every pilot should try to get sideslipping into their flying 'skills base'. Sideslipping the Chipmunk helps with short strips if you're a tad hot or high and the power's off and full flap's down, but that lovely round-section rear fuselage is not that draggy when presented a bit sideways to the airflow, so the ROD isn't dramatically increased.
But last week I was flying a friend's non-flap Citabria, and finding myseld a tad hot on short final, it was almost a reflex action to push rudder and slip the ship. She slips superbly, loads of added drag from that slab-sided fuselage, and we arrived over the numbers at the right height and speed.
There is a tendency when slipping to allow the nose to drop (as someone else said), which lets the speed build up, and you'll float past the end of the strip. You will need to haul back a tad on the stick when slipping to prevent this - and like evrything else in flying, continued practice makes it second nature.
SSD
But last week I was flying a friend's non-flap Citabria, and finding myseld a tad hot on short final, it was almost a reflex action to push rudder and slip the ship. She slips superbly, loads of added drag from that slab-sided fuselage, and we arrived over the numbers at the right height and speed.
There is a tendency when slipping to allow the nose to drop (as someone else said), which lets the speed build up, and you'll float past the end of the strip. You will need to haul back a tad on the stick when slipping to prevent this - and like evrything else in flying, continued practice makes it second nature.
SSD
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TonyR,
Ah OK. I must admit that I only crab in a crosswind but will use crossed controls at takeoff to prevent wind-cocking. Doesn't result in sideslip though.
Can't speak for anybody else, but I have only ever flown according to the POH. For the AA5 that is around about the CAA recommended 1.3 x Stall speed. The C152 POH does have about a 5 knot margin over that which does seem a touch excessive. Not sure why, haven't asked. But it maybe due to its profile drag that slows the a/c quickly once you cut the power for flare. Must ask my instructor.
Since writing this half truth I went back to the text. The 1.3 x stall is for Vat across the threshold and not for the approach speed. It appears that POHs diverge here as the AA5 Vat is 10kts more than stall with full flap. Also, it would be induced drag and not profile that would be dominant below Vimd (in theory).
Ah OK. I must admit that I only crab in a crosswind but will use crossed controls at takeoff to prevent wind-cocking. Doesn't result in sideslip though.
Why do most people fly their final approach 20 knots faster than necessary?
Since writing this half truth I went back to the text. The 1.3 x stall is for Vat across the threshold and not for the approach speed. It appears that POHs diverge here as the AA5 Vat is 10kts more than stall with full flap. Also, it would be induced drag and not profile that would be dominant below Vimd (in theory).
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 3rd May 2004 at 12:13.
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Did some sideslipping today, The instructor was not too hot at it so we both had a lot of attempts at getting some serious "sink" with very little forward distance.
It felt good to do something different, that will be useful in the future.
Also did some "slow flying"
Ken
It felt good to do something different, that will be useful in the future.
Also did some "slow flying"
Ken
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FNG - good idea for a thread!
Interesting to hear peoples' experiences of classic aeroplanes and the 'running out of rudder' tales...
If you really want to sideslip... try the Tiger Moth... beautifully controllable slip... and see what happens when you run out of... aileron!
Interesting to hear peoples' experiences of classic aeroplanes and the 'running out of rudder' tales...
If you really want to sideslip... try the Tiger Moth... beautifully controllable slip... and see what happens when you run out of... aileron!
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It seems to me that
"Real" pilots would like the PPL syllabus to include full spins, side slipping, barrel rolls, etc (but surely one can do additional training for aerobatics)
Taildragger pilots would like every PPL to have taildragger training, so they can fully appreciate the fun of flying a taildragger (but surely you can get differences training for that)
Pilots who got into flying to go places (myself) want the PPL syllabus to include much better nav training, GPS, the IMC Rating, as well as wanting instructors that actually fly IFR for real, as well as being able to rent planes that aren't falling to bits, etc (no likely solution to this one; you have to do the IMCR / IR and then buy a decent plane)
ATCOs, judging from their regular moaning here and everywhere else anyone is likely to read it, would like people to (somehow) know where they are when they are flying. I suppose they want better nav training (but how much more certain of position can Mr Average Pilot get when all he's been taught is a stopwatch and a piece of string?). Nothing will change on this front until dead reckoning is abandoned or supplemented with something better.
None of these groups are going to get what they want, because the 45hr-min PPL syllabus is far too short to teach someone all this stuff, and any changes have to be internationally agreed. In 45hrs, you can learn to just about takeoff, fly level, and land, safely. It's no good complicating things beyond that. And one has to keep the 121.5 people in their jobs - if everybody got a GPS and used it correctly, they would be completely redundant
"Real" pilots would like the PPL syllabus to include full spins, side slipping, barrel rolls, etc (but surely one can do additional training for aerobatics)
Taildragger pilots would like every PPL to have taildragger training, so they can fully appreciate the fun of flying a taildragger (but surely you can get differences training for that)
Pilots who got into flying to go places (myself) want the PPL syllabus to include much better nav training, GPS, the IMC Rating, as well as wanting instructors that actually fly IFR for real, as well as being able to rent planes that aren't falling to bits, etc (no likely solution to this one; you have to do the IMCR / IR and then buy a decent plane)
ATCOs, judging from their regular moaning here and everywhere else anyone is likely to read it, would like people to (somehow) know where they are when they are flying. I suppose they want better nav training (but how much more certain of position can Mr Average Pilot get when all he's been taught is a stopwatch and a piece of string?). Nothing will change on this front until dead reckoning is abandoned or supplemented with something better.
None of these groups are going to get what they want, because the 45hr-min PPL syllabus is far too short to teach someone all this stuff, and any changes have to be internationally agreed. In 45hrs, you can learn to just about takeoff, fly level, and land, safely. It's no good complicating things beyond that. And one has to keep the 121.5 people in their jobs - if everybody got a GPS and used it correctly, they would be completely redundant
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because the 45hr-min PPL syllabus is far too short to teach someone all this stuff,
my opinion..
Westy
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Monocock,
You really should go to a Gliding club for a chip removal session.
Colour:- Most modern,(glass), gliders are white, so are an awful lot of modern light aircraft for the same reason. Gliders are usually either turning in a thermal, in which case they are easily seen due to the sun glinting off the wings,(assuming you are spending more time looking out than admiring your GPSDMEVORHDI), or they are flying 'on track' in which case their speeds are similar to most powered aircraft and the glider pilot has probably seen you anyway.
Exit areas:- Gliders do not generally enter controlled airspace so they will tend to be 'crushed against the fence' so to speak. If you are cleared to operate in airways, stay in there where it's nice and safe and cozy and leave the open airspace to those of us with eyes. Glider pilots don't know about VOR and wouldn't know where to find one to cluster around it in the first place. I suspect you are seeing gliders when you start doing a proper lookout, i.e. when you leave controlled airspace or approach a VOR and think "dodgy area, this, I'd better have a look out of the window."
Radio:- Most gliders are on Radio but they are on 130.4 or 130.1 or a few other dedicated glider frequencies. They have never heard of 123.4. Unfortunately, they also do not generally carry lists of frequencies and tend to get busy low down which is why they may land at your airfield without making any radio calls. In most cases it would be illegal for them to do so as they do not have radio licenses and are only allowed to use the gliding frequencies.
PR:- 99.95% of the general public have never seen a glider in the air. Non air-minded people do not look above head height unless a noise causes them to look.
I cannot remember the last Glider/Power mid-air and I will just about guarantee that the power aircraft concerned would have been a glider tug.
Mike W
You really should go to a Gliding club for a chip removal session.
Colour:- Most modern,(glass), gliders are white, so are an awful lot of modern light aircraft for the same reason. Gliders are usually either turning in a thermal, in which case they are easily seen due to the sun glinting off the wings,(assuming you are spending more time looking out than admiring your GPSDMEVORHDI), or they are flying 'on track' in which case their speeds are similar to most powered aircraft and the glider pilot has probably seen you anyway.
Exit areas:- Gliders do not generally enter controlled airspace so they will tend to be 'crushed against the fence' so to speak. If you are cleared to operate in airways, stay in there where it's nice and safe and cozy and leave the open airspace to those of us with eyes. Glider pilots don't know about VOR and wouldn't know where to find one to cluster around it in the first place. I suspect you are seeing gliders when you start doing a proper lookout, i.e. when you leave controlled airspace or approach a VOR and think "dodgy area, this, I'd better have a look out of the window."
Radio:- Most gliders are on Radio but they are on 130.4 or 130.1 or a few other dedicated glider frequencies. They have never heard of 123.4. Unfortunately, they also do not generally carry lists of frequencies and tend to get busy low down which is why they may land at your airfield without making any radio calls. In most cases it would be illegal for them to do so as they do not have radio licenses and are only allowed to use the gliding frequencies.
PR:- 99.95% of the general public have never seen a glider in the air. Non air-minded people do not look above head height unless a noise causes them to look.
I cannot remember the last Glider/Power mid-air and I will just about guarantee that the power aircraft concerned would have been a glider tug.
Mike W
Not so N, but still FG
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Leaving aeros and spinning aside, the point of side slipping is indicated above, and it's surely something that every pilot needs to be famliar with. The point of recommending some tailwheel flying is that it may educate pilots out of attempting to land too fast, and reduce the number of bent nosewheels and props. My landings in nosewheel aircraft have improved greatly since I took up tailwheel flying, to the point that I don't recall mucking up a nosewheel landing since then. My tailwheel landings remain very variable in quality, but it's fun trying to get better.
Last edited by FNG; 4th May 2004 at 11:05.
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Skylark4
Power/Glider collision see here: (1996) http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_502371.hcsp
Powered aircraft, an AA5, wasn't a tug.
I cannot remember the last Glider/Power mid-air and I will just about guarantee that the power aircraft concerned would have been a glider tug.
Mike W
Mike W
Powered aircraft, an AA5, wasn't a tug.
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Rustle,
Quite happy to be corrected. What a sad story. From the reading of that, he would have been O.K. if he had pushed or pulled the stick rather than turned. The tip of his left wing hit the tip of the gliders right wing with the AA5 in a right turn. He was still unlucky in that the damage appeared to be minor but his mass ballance weight got jammed.
I don't know if that was the result of a search or if you remembered it. If that is the most recent one there is, it was ten years ago.( I am not trying to start a contest, it's just that I feel that this is an overrated risk)
Mike W
Quite happy to be corrected. What a sad story. From the reading of that, he would have been O.K. if he had pushed or pulled the stick rather than turned. The tip of his left wing hit the tip of the gliders right wing with the AA5 in a right turn. He was still unlucky in that the damage appeared to be minor but his mass ballance weight got jammed.
I don't know if that was the result of a search or if you remembered it. If that is the most recent one there is, it was ten years ago.( I am not trying to start a contest, it's just that I feel that this is an overrated risk)
Mike W
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FNG
"the point of side slipping is indicated above, and it's surely something that every pilot needs to be famliar with. "
Do you really mean EVERY pilot? With gear down and max flaps, I can descend at about 2000fpm and if that isn't enough then I should have started the descent a few miles further back. It doesn't do the engine that good to do this, either. It's also a good way of making rear passengers sick.
"The point of recommending some tailwheel flying is that it may educate pilots out of attempting to land too fast"
Why not just teach them to fly the correct airspeed? If you can't teach a PPL to fly a specific airspeed (plus or minus say 5kt) on final, then he (or the instructor) doesn't have a hope.
Something vastly more important than side slipping is teaching people how to trim correctly. I know many people aren't taught this properly. I was shown how the trim wheel is used to cancel the yoke pressure, but was never told that the trim setting in effect determines the airspeed. Yet lack of this understanding is at the root of speed control problems.
Changing the student to a very different aircraft just to fix speed problems is very wasteful. Currency ON TYPE is so important. And if it is a PPL holder, the chances are that he isn't doing enough hours to stay current anyway.
Those that do lots of hours can of course play around and no doubt they will benefit, just as a car driver benefits from driving different vehicles. But these are not viable solutions to what is basically poor teaching, or trying to teach someone who is just wasting their own money.
I have done plenty of c**p landings (none heavy in the damaging sense; just very untidy, bouncing/balooning etc) and in hindsight 95% of them were the result of landing too fast. As for the other 5%, they don't worry me because perfection cannot be attained in this activity, certainly not in variable winds etc.
"the point of side slipping is indicated above, and it's surely something that every pilot needs to be famliar with. "
Do you really mean EVERY pilot? With gear down and max flaps, I can descend at about 2000fpm and if that isn't enough then I should have started the descent a few miles further back. It doesn't do the engine that good to do this, either. It's also a good way of making rear passengers sick.
"The point of recommending some tailwheel flying is that it may educate pilots out of attempting to land too fast"
Why not just teach them to fly the correct airspeed? If you can't teach a PPL to fly a specific airspeed (plus or minus say 5kt) on final, then he (or the instructor) doesn't have a hope.
Something vastly more important than side slipping is teaching people how to trim correctly. I know many people aren't taught this properly. I was shown how the trim wheel is used to cancel the yoke pressure, but was never told that the trim setting in effect determines the airspeed. Yet lack of this understanding is at the root of speed control problems.
Changing the student to a very different aircraft just to fix speed problems is very wasteful. Currency ON TYPE is so important. And if it is a PPL holder, the chances are that he isn't doing enough hours to stay current anyway.
Those that do lots of hours can of course play around and no doubt they will benefit, just as a car driver benefits from driving different vehicles. But these are not viable solutions to what is basically poor teaching, or trying to teach someone who is just wasting their own money.
I have done plenty of c**p landings (none heavy in the damaging sense; just very untidy, bouncing/balooning etc) and in hindsight 95% of them were the result of landing too fast. As for the other 5%, they don't worry me because perfection cannot be attained in this activity, certainly not in variable winds etc.
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"The point of recommending some tailwheel flying is that it may educate pilots out of attempting to land too fast"
Why not just teach them to fly the correct airspeed? If you can't teach a PPL to fly a specific airspeed (plus or minus say 5kt) on final, then he (or the instructor) doesn't have a hope.
IO540
Tailwheel aeroplanes teach more than the importance of a correct approach speed. Far more important, IMHO, is that they teach a correctly held-off touchdown. If you fail to hold off enough, or hold off too high, do it too early or too late, you won't get away with it in a tailwheel machine - it is intolerant of sloppy technique. No matter how good your instructor, there is no finer teacher of landings than an aeroplane that demands correct technique. Every time.
In a nosewhweel aeroplane, you'll get away with quite appalling airmanship (within limits) - until the noseleg decides enough is enough. Then there will be another bent firewall, busted prop, bent panels, and shock-loaded engine.
SSD
Why not just teach them to fly the correct airspeed? If you can't teach a PPL to fly a specific airspeed (plus or minus say 5kt) on final, then he (or the instructor) doesn't have a hope.
IO540
Tailwheel aeroplanes teach more than the importance of a correct approach speed. Far more important, IMHO, is that they teach a correctly held-off touchdown. If you fail to hold off enough, or hold off too high, do it too early or too late, you won't get away with it in a tailwheel machine - it is intolerant of sloppy technique. No matter how good your instructor, there is no finer teacher of landings than an aeroplane that demands correct technique. Every time.
In a nosewhweel aeroplane, you'll get away with quite appalling airmanship (within limits) - until the noseleg decides enough is enough. Then there will be another bent firewall, busted prop, bent panels, and shock-loaded engine.
SSD
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"The point of recommending some tailwheel flying is that it may educate pilots out of attempting to land too fast"
a) Teach pilots to make critical decisions. If you come in too fast and are not going to make it, do something about it early on. I.e. if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't.
b) Teach pilots how to handle the result of their actions. Crossing the threshold at 100kts won't do any damage to the aircraft IF the pilot knows how to react, and there is sufficient runway remaining. If you keep holding it off, and holding it off, you can make a very nice, all be it long, landing.
They'll soon learn from their mistakes
(I can vouch for this, 5000' in a 172, and 7000' in a Seminole
)EA
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Skylark4
Thanks for the advice. I am sorry I hit such a raw nerve with you. Had I known it was such a sensitive subject I probably would have never made my post so polite and would have really said what I felt.
As mentioned before, my tolerance of the gliding fraternity is quite low these days and this is not just due to a single event.
I have had two incidences of outdoors stock having to be shot after gliders landing on my land. One of them was a calf that had run into a fence and had its head stuck for three hours. The glider pilot was stopped about 50 yards from it and can't possibly not have heard/seen the problems this animal was facing. The wheel marks showed where the tug had arrived and flown off with the glider and left the poor little mite to strangle itself.
Three weeks of temporary stock fencing work destroyed by a lady glider pilot who didn't even apologise after ploughing through it on landing. She was more concerned about her fibreglass scratches.
Countless gliders actually land on my airstrip and then not say thanks when I offer to hold their wing on departure by tug.
Gliders sometimes circle over the approach to my strip at 400 ft waiting to see if they might just get a bit more lift before using it as a bolthole WHILE I AM SITTING WAITING TO DEPART!!!!
This thread is about sideslipping and I think it is an excellent thread. We have both made our points. There are enough Glider V Powered threads in the archives to keep us entertained for hours if we want that kind of thing. I should know, I posted on most of them.
Thanks for the advice. I am sorry I hit such a raw nerve with you. Had I known it was such a sensitive subject I probably would have never made my post so polite and would have really said what I felt.
As mentioned before, my tolerance of the gliding fraternity is quite low these days and this is not just due to a single event.
I have had two incidences of outdoors stock having to be shot after gliders landing on my land. One of them was a calf that had run into a fence and had its head stuck for three hours. The glider pilot was stopped about 50 yards from it and can't possibly not have heard/seen the problems this animal was facing. The wheel marks showed where the tug had arrived and flown off with the glider and left the poor little mite to strangle itself.
Three weeks of temporary stock fencing work destroyed by a lady glider pilot who didn't even apologise after ploughing through it on landing. She was more concerned about her fibreglass scratches.
Countless gliders actually land on my airstrip and then not say thanks when I offer to hold their wing on departure by tug.
Gliders sometimes circle over the approach to my strip at 400 ft waiting to see if they might just get a bit more lift before using it as a bolthole WHILE I AM SITTING WAITING TO DEPART!!!!
This thread is about sideslipping and I think it is an excellent thread. We have both made our points. There are enough Glider V Powered threads in the archives to keep us entertained for hours if we want that kind of thing. I should know, I posted on most of them.
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They must be nicer glider pilots in Ireland, I never had a problem and I fly into a gliding site and sometimes they land with me.
Its a bit like Those at the "Big airport" saying "dam those fu..ing microlighters, and the microlighter talking about the spam cans, the Pfa,ers hate everybody else and no one wants the poor old glider.
We gave up farming a few years ago and planted 30,000 trees, a good way to put the gliders off.
They do know how to sideslip though
Tony
Its a bit like Those at the "Big airport" saying "dam those fu..ing microlighters, and the microlighter talking about the spam cans, the Pfa,ers hate everybody else and no one wants the poor old glider.
We gave up farming a few years ago and planted 30,000 trees, a good way to put the gliders off.
They do know how to sideslip though
Tony