Side-slipping
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Speed control is paramount when flying.
The fear of people to stall/spin is such that a lot of emphasis is put on not going to slow. This invariably leads to folks going too fast.
The fact that there are more folks going through the fence at the far end rather than landing short is the best proof of this.
And going back to the original thread; when you sideslip it is the attitude which is important to control speed. Anyone who thinks that the ASI gives any valuable information during the slip does not understand how the cookie crumbles.
FD
The fear of people to stall/spin is such that a lot of emphasis is put on not going to slow. This invariably leads to folks going too fast.
The fact that there are more folks going through the fence at the far end rather than landing short is the best proof of this.
And going back to the original thread; when you sideslip it is the attitude which is important to control speed. Anyone who thinks that the ASI gives any valuable information during the slip does not understand how the cookie crumbles.
FD
Not so N, but still FG
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IO540, you say,
"With gear down and max flaps, I can descend at about 2000fpm and if that isn't enough then I should have started the descent a few miles further back. It doesn't do the engine that good to do this, either. It's also a good way of making rear passengers sick."
Suppose that your engine should mischievously stop and you find yourself too high to arrive safely in the only suitable field in range ? Go back and start the descent again? I agree, however, that not making your passengers feel even slightly woozy is far more important than not crashing. Why oh why can't they make aeroplanes properly so that they don't have to do that silly tippy uppy thing to go around corners?
It seems a shame to allow your rabid and endlessly reiterated hostility to all forms of aviation tradition to reduce your armoury of flying skills.
"With gear down and max flaps, I can descend at about 2000fpm and if that isn't enough then I should have started the descent a few miles further back. It doesn't do the engine that good to do this, either. It's also a good way of making rear passengers sick."
Suppose that your engine should mischievously stop and you find yourself too high to arrive safely in the only suitable field in range ? Go back and start the descent again? I agree, however, that not making your passengers feel even slightly woozy is far more important than not crashing. Why oh why can't they make aeroplanes properly so that they don't have to do that silly tippy uppy thing to go around corners?
It seems a shame to allow your rabid and endlessly reiterated hostility to all forms of aviation tradition to reduce your armoury of flying skills.
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Suppose that your engine should mischievously stop and you find yourself too high to arrive safely in the only suitable field in range ? Go back and start the descent again?
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S turns, exactly. Work very well.
As for FNG's comment, I have already said that someone who had done their PPL and has plenty of time/money, can learn additional skills at their leisure. My comments were clearely stated as relative to what can/should reasonably be taught in a basic PPL. As for engine failure... statistically this can happen anytime and there is a procedure for a forced landing, isn't there?
As for FNG's comment, I have already said that someone who had done their PPL and has plenty of time/money, can learn additional skills at their leisure. My comments were clearely stated as relative to what can/should reasonably be taught in a basic PPL. As for engine failure... statistically this can happen anytime and there is a procedure for a forced landing, isn't there?
Last edited by IO540; 5th May 2004 at 07:49.
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S turns are fine at height but do you REALLY want to do this below 200ft or so - if you learn to sideslip properly this can be kept up right to the flare if needed, it is also something that can be easily varied to increase/decrease the glide angle - a MUCH better tool IMHO than S turns.
I am also surprised nobody has mentioned "fishtailing", where you just hold your attitude and kick the rudder from side to side. Again not as good as a sideslip, but good to have all you can in the armoury AND you can do it in a Cessna full flap if needed.
I am also surprised nobody has mentioned "fishtailing", where you just hold your attitude and kick the rudder from side to side. Again not as good as a sideslip, but good to have all you can in the armoury AND you can do it in a Cessna full flap if needed.
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Fishtailing?
Just using the rudder like that will induce skidding which if done slow enough is a recipe for a spin.
No place for this in anyone's armoury unless they want to spin.
Maybe approach to land is not the place for this.
If you are so high that you can not safely make the runway with the techniques you master and are appropriate for your aeroplane it is probably time to go around and give it another go.
FD
Just using the rudder like that will induce skidding which if done slow enough is a recipe for a spin.
No place for this in anyone's armoury unless they want to spin.
Maybe approach to land is not the place for this.
If you are so high that you can not safely make the runway with the techniques you master and are appropriate for your aeroplane it is probably time to go around and give it another go.
FD
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HWD
What causes a wing to stall? Angle of Attack.
Throwing in tight turns at low altitude in order to recover from too much height on the approach to a forced landing is not the answer. It increases your AoA and will require an increase in airspeed if you want to remain safe. If the landing area is tight excess airspeed on touchdown is the last thing you need.
Consider the S turn itself, you are lined up on the approach but too high so you turn away, let's assume you are way too high so you turn 90 degrees. Your landing area is now alongside the aircraft and moving backwards. To regain the approach you now have to turn 180 degrees and backtrack to the approach path then turn 90 degrees back on to the approach. By turning 90 degrees you have given yourself another 270 degrees to turn, during which you are going to lose a lot more height. Yes you could cut the corners but if you do that you are moving yourself closer in to the field. Believe me a sideslip is much easier. You stay pointing at the runway, you can stop it any time you want without leaving yourself with additional turns to do and it doesn't increase your airspeed.
When you do your renewal why not choose an instructor who can teach you the skill? (Maybe not one concentrating on his ATPL)
Mike
What causes a wing to stall? Angle of Attack.
Throwing in tight turns at low altitude in order to recover from too much height on the approach to a forced landing is not the answer. It increases your AoA and will require an increase in airspeed if you want to remain safe. If the landing area is tight excess airspeed on touchdown is the last thing you need.
Consider the S turn itself, you are lined up on the approach but too high so you turn away, let's assume you are way too high so you turn 90 degrees. Your landing area is now alongside the aircraft and moving backwards. To regain the approach you now have to turn 180 degrees and backtrack to the approach path then turn 90 degrees back on to the approach. By turning 90 degrees you have given yourself another 270 degrees to turn, during which you are going to lose a lot more height. Yes you could cut the corners but if you do that you are moving yourself closer in to the field. Believe me a sideslip is much easier. You stay pointing at the runway, you can stop it any time you want without leaving yourself with additional turns to do and it doesn't increase your airspeed.
When you do your renewal why not choose an instructor who can teach you the skill? (Maybe not one concentrating on his ATPL)
Mike
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I'm a student PPL so may be missing something crucial in this discussion, but isn't the wing-down crosswind landing method just a side-slip?
And also confused about the Cessna thing mentioned, are people saying you should always use the crab method in a C150/152 flapped crosswind landing?
- Michael
And also confused about the Cessna thing mentioned, are people saying you should always use the crab method in a C150/152 flapped crosswind landing?
- Michael
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Michael,
You did not miss anything.
I personally prefer the crab and kick-off method as it will work for any aeroplane and any crosswind.
But even with that you will cross control the last bit (which is fine)
Deliberate sideslipping to come in when too high is good fun and can be appropriate, depending on aeroplane and situation.
FD
You did not miss anything.
I personally prefer the crab and kick-off method as it will work for any aeroplane and any crosswind.
But even with that you will cross control the last bit (which is fine)
Deliberate sideslipping to come in when too high is good fun and can be appropriate, depending on aeroplane and situation.
FD
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Flyin'Dutch', is it correct that the only difference between the wing-down and crab approaches is where in the approach you transition to a side-slip attitude?
Given that, isn't it easier for inexperienced pilots to transition to wing-down further back in the approach so that they can get used to the cross-control feel for longer before touch-down?
- Michael
Given that, isn't it easier for inexperienced pilots to transition to wing-down further back in the approach so that they can get used to the cross-control feel for longer before touch-down?
- Michael
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Just using the rudder like that will induce skidding which if done slow enough is a recipe for a spin
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Chaps,
Cripes! I really did not mean to say S turns are better. I would not know (as you all know). Just that it is the only technique I was taught for giving myself more time to loose height. It has worked well in PFLs thus far. Obviously one does not throw one's a/c around the countryside, but just some turns back and fro. However, I know full well that a PFL is just that and is only preperation for the real thing. I like to think that I would not be tempted to depart from my training should the event happen for real. Odds are one day I will find out!
BTW, Thanks again to those for their kind offers of assistance. I will be enquiring about some extra training with my School so I am convinced it is a technique worth mastering. No argument there.
Cripes! I really did not mean to say S turns are better. I would not know (as you all know). Just that it is the only technique I was taught for giving myself more time to loose height. It has worked well in PFLs thus far. Obviously one does not throw one's a/c around the countryside, but just some turns back and fro. However, I know full well that a PFL is just that and is only preperation for the real thing. I like to think that I would not be tempted to depart from my training should the event happen for real. Odds are one day I will find out!
BTW, Thanks again to those for their kind offers of assistance. I will be enquiring about some extra training with my School so I am convinced it is a technique worth mastering. No argument there.
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Hmmm slideslipping and the PA18 - heaven.
Loved it so much, my instructor on the differences training asked me to lay off it for a bit.
Should it be on the PPL? Tricky one, but don't think so.
Personally, I feel 45 hours for the PPL isn't really enough. If we were to add in all the stuff we weren't taught, or was glossed over, it would be more like 75 hours, but that would seriously reduce the intake, so the desirable stuff has to be left out.
That said, the taildragging course, like the IMC rating, opened up new flying horizons for me.
My advice... Do the PPL, get some hours up showing the relatives their houses, then really learn to fly with IMC, taildragging, aeros etc.
KCDW
ps - the other real treat on a PA18 - really steep turns... 60 deg is for nancys!
Loved it so much, my instructor on the differences training asked me to lay off it for a bit.
Should it be on the PPL? Tricky one, but don't think so.
Personally, I feel 45 hours for the PPL isn't really enough. If we were to add in all the stuff we weren't taught, or was glossed over, it would be more like 75 hours, but that would seriously reduce the intake, so the desirable stuff has to be left out.
That said, the taildragging course, like the IMC rating, opened up new flying horizons for me.
My advice... Do the PPL, get some hours up showing the relatives their houses, then really learn to fly with IMC, taildragging, aeros etc.
KCDW
ps - the other real treat on a PA18 - really steep turns... 60 deg is for nancys!
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Some references in this thread to "forward side slipping"
Whatever can that be?
Not too sure about the danger in lighties but with the bigger ones there can be some that will suffer from rudder over balance. There have been some even get their certification with rudder over balance so bad that at very high sideslip angles the rudder will lock over.
So be wary if the rudder force starts to diminish at high sideslip angles.
Whatever can that be?
Not too sure about the danger in lighties but with the bigger ones there can be some that will suffer from rudder over balance. There have been some even get their certification with rudder over balance so bad that at very high sideslip angles the rudder will lock over.
So be wary if the rudder force starts to diminish at high sideslip angles.
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"Forward slip" and "side slip" not "forward side slip" ... two different things, although the same 
I've never heard of rudder overbalence during a side or forward slip in a light aircraft ... but I may be wrong?
It's amazing how these sort of threads always come back to what or what should not be taught at PPL level. Or if one kind of skill is relevent to any other kind of flying. Does it really matter? You simply can't teach everything at an early stage (although side slipping would be worth it "oops, I'm at it too"). The point IS that side slipping is a VERY useful skill to know, takes little to learn, isn't that hard to perfect and could ... just could save you or your aeroplane during a forced landing. It's also good fun ... GO ON ... anyone who can't ... learn to do it next time you're up with an instructor (and if he/she doesn't know how to either at their stage in the game ... change instructor!!!)
SS
I've never heard of rudder overbalence during a side or forward slip in a light aircraft ... but I may be wrong?
It's amazing how these sort of threads always come back to what or what should not be taught at PPL level. Or if one kind of skill is relevent to any other kind of flying. Does it really matter? You simply can't teach everything at an early stage (although side slipping would be worth it "oops, I'm at it too"). The point IS that side slipping is a VERY useful skill to know, takes little to learn, isn't that hard to perfect and could ... just could save you or your aeroplane during a forced landing. It's also good fun ... GO ON ... anyone who can't ... learn to do it next time you're up with an instructor
(and if he/she doesn't know how to either at their stage in the game ... change instructor!!!)SS
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Michael,
I like slipping but not to set off a crosswind. I think the crab and kickoff method is better for that for the reasons set out above.
There is (IMO) little to be gained from kicking off high and then doing the wing low approach over a longer trajectory for students as:
1. You miss some of the visual clues which make the kick off easy to teach and understand when you are higher up and
2. Why teach something which you are not going to use later on.
By all means if people want to learn to sideslip do this initially higher up along ground references.
Foxmoth,
You are of course correct. But if you get your aerodynamics books out you will see that slipping is an inherently safe activity whereas skidding is not. A lot of stall spin accidents happen because folks try to rudder the aeroplane around the corner when slow and low rather than flying coordinated.
SS,
As you say the only thing that exists is slipping and whether that is sidewards of forwards depends on where you steer your ship.
Any other nomenclature only confuses the subject so that hangar fliers can make it sound more interesting and difficult than it is.
FD
I like slipping but not to set off a crosswind. I think the crab and kickoff method is better for that for the reasons set out above.
There is (IMO) little to be gained from kicking off high and then doing the wing low approach over a longer trajectory for students as:
1. You miss some of the visual clues which make the kick off easy to teach and understand when you are higher up and
2. Why teach something which you are not going to use later on.
By all means if people want to learn to sideslip do this initially higher up along ground references.
Foxmoth,
You are of course correct. But if you get your aerodynamics books out you will see that slipping is an inherently safe activity whereas skidding is not. A lot of stall spin accidents happen because folks try to rudder the aeroplane around the corner when slow and low rather than flying coordinated.
SS,
As you say the only thing that exists is slipping and whether that is sidewards of forwards depends on where you steer your ship.
Any other nomenclature only confuses the subject so that hangar fliers can make it sound more interesting and difficult than it is.
FD
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I would rather slip than S-turn on the final approach for a forced landing. I'd rather not be turning at that point, and certainly not away from my intended landing point.