IR - order of events
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: London, England
.... leading to this situation:
- CAA defines a national rating (IMC) and the training required for it
- IMC training is not recognised or credited if you train for a JAA IR
- FAA will recognise IMC training towards an FAA IR
- JAA will recognise an FAA IR and reduce the training for a JAA IR to 15 hours
- CAA will recognise a FAA IR and give you an IMC
So my recommendation if you think you might want a JAA IR is:
A) if you have an IMC then get a FAA IR. This will give you instrument priviliges in N reg without the JAA ground training lunacy, and should you then go for a JAA IR it will reduce the expensive JAA flying training to min 15 hours
B) if you don't have an IMC get a FAA IR. You get a ICAO IR, an IMC for free, and a discount off the JAA IR training.
- CAA defines a national rating (IMC) and the training required for it
- IMC training is not recognised or credited if you train for a JAA IR
- FAA will recognise IMC training towards an FAA IR
- JAA will recognise an FAA IR and reduce the training for a JAA IR to 15 hours
- CAA will recognise a FAA IR and give you an IMC
So my recommendation if you think you might want a JAA IR is:
A) if you have an IMC then get a FAA IR. This will give you instrument priviliges in N reg without the JAA ground training lunacy, and should you then go for a JAA IR it will reduce the expensive JAA flying training to min 15 hours
B) if you don't have an IMC get a FAA IR. You get a ICAO IR, an IMC for free, and a discount off the JAA IR training.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
As someone who has done none of this training except the IMC but who has looked into this extensively, including speaking with those who have done the JAA/IR and the FAA/IR the first comment to make is this. Which ever route you take its going to be very hard work. The FAA IR does require fewer hours, 40, of which your IMC hours will count, as will any other instrument flying you have logged. Though the exams are fewer, one multiple choice done on computer at the FTO, the flight test apparently starts with a significant in depth oral exam which people can and do fail!
The currency requirements are to do six instrument approaches in 6 months and there is a biannual flight review. Also the qualifying cross country time is higher as cross country only counts if you travel more than 50 miles as opposed to the much reduced limit (I've forgotten what it is here!).
So, don't do the FAA IR unless you have regular access to an N reg and can keep current.
Transfer to a JAA IR is also not straight forward. Although you have to do 15 hours training you also have to pass all the exams at either ATPL or IR level.
By the time you've done all this you are not likely to be significantly ahead on cost, especially if you train in the US for the FAA IR.
The currency requirements are to do six instrument approaches in 6 months and there is a biannual flight review. Also the qualifying cross country time is higher as cross country only counts if you travel more than 50 miles as opposed to the much reduced limit (I've forgotten what it is here!).
So, don't do the FAA IR unless you have regular access to an N reg and can keep current.
Transfer to a JAA IR is also not straight forward. Although you have to do 15 hours training you also have to pass all the exams at either ATPL or IR level.
By the time you've done all this you are not likely to be significantly ahead on cost, especially if you train in the US for the FAA IR.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
One also needs to remember that an IMC Rating needs a CAA PPL, and the CAA Class 2 medical. If you fail that medical but fly (in the UK) under the FAA medical, there can be problems; the CAA is entitled to ground you.
The problem with keeping two sets of medicals is that if you fail (I mean actually fail, with the AME knowing and telling the CAA) the UK one, you are stuffed.
Most people who go the FAA PPL/IR route have either never done a UK license/medical (the best scenario) or have let the CAA license/medical lapse.
The problem with keeping two sets of medicals is that if you fail (I mean actually fail, with the AME knowing and telling the CAA) the UK one, you are stuffed.
Most people who go the FAA PPL/IR route have either never done a UK license/medical (the best scenario) or have let the CAA license/medical lapse.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: London, England
Justiciar
As someone who has done the IMC and FAA IR, I agree on currency, which applies to all instrument flying, but unless I am mistaken there is nothing in ther FARs to say that you cannot keep your FAA IR currency in a G reg.
So, don't do the FAA IR unless you have regular access to an N reg and can keep current.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
there is nothing in ther FARs to say that you cannot keep your FAA IR currency in a G reg
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
You can keep an FAA IR current in a G reg plane provided you have an IMC rating as well. The FAA IR requires 6 APPROACHES to renew no airways flying. So doing the approaches within the rights of an IMC will keep it current.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Can you fly IFR in the UK on a FAA IR in a G reg aircraft?
This is why, if the person also has a UK PPL+medical, he may as well send off the cheque and the application form to the CAA for the IMC Rating, which entitles him to go IFR in Class D also.
If the FAA IR holder did the six approaches in airfields in Class G (e.g. Biggin Hill) would that not count?
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
As a happy bunny with a UK IMC and an FAA IR, I reckon that's an ideal combination. All I need now is an N-reg aircraft (plans are afoot) and I'm all set.
The FAA IR is *not* a pushover - just a lot more logically thought out than the JAA one. It's based on ability to fly and understanding of flight, not learning vast amounts of irrelevant stuff.
As one who's been through some obscure ceremonies in his time, I would liken the JAA IR to "FAA IR plus secret society initiation rites and ceremony".
A former group colleague who did a CAA IR found the palaver of revalidating every year (he always passed) so arduous he gave up on the IR and went back to his IMC rating.
Then he emigrated to New Zealand where things are different again...
The FAA IR is *not* a pushover - just a lot more logically thought out than the JAA one. It's based on ability to fly and understanding of flight, not learning vast amounts of irrelevant stuff.
As one who's been through some obscure ceremonies in his time, I would liken the JAA IR to "FAA IR plus secret society initiation rites and ceremony".
A former group colleague who did a CAA IR found the palaver of revalidating every year (he always passed) so arduous he gave up on the IR and went back to his IMC rating.
Then he emigrated to New Zealand where things are different again...
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Oxford
Hmm... useful-ish...
I picked up a whole load of info at the London Air Show from various people (though Cabair's subsequent letter to me 'Thank you for your interest in a SE IR... your test will include... asymmetric approach and go-around...' shows a worrying lack of attention to detail!). Probably put it off until next year then do the writtens at Coventry or Cranfield and the flying at Aeros. Not sure yet. Or stick with the IMC...
Tim
I picked up a whole load of info at the London Air Show from various people (though Cabair's subsequent letter to me 'Thank you for your interest in a SE IR... your test will include... asymmetric approach and go-around...' shows a worrying lack of attention to detail!). Probably put it off until next year then do the writtens at Coventry or Cranfield and the flying at Aeros. Not sure yet. Or stick with the IMC...
Tim
Joined: May 2003
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Keef:
As a matter of interest where did you do your FAA IR?
I've just spoken to GTS at Bournemouth about the CPL distance learning course. They also do the IR papers. If their friendly and very speedy response to my emails is anything to go by they are worth considering for the distance learning.
As a matter of interest where did you do your FAA IR?
I've just spoken to GTS at Bournemouth about the CPL distance learning course. They also do the IR papers. If their friendly and very speedy response to my emails is anything to go by they are worth considering for the distance learning.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
I did my FAA IR at Naples Air Center, in Florida. I'd recommend them highly.
I did the writtens in the UK before I went, to get the academic stuff out of the way.
It wasn't easy, but it was enjoyable - and I've used it in anger since!
I did the writtens in the UK before I went, to get the academic stuff out of the way.
It wasn't easy, but it was enjoyable - and I've used it in anger since!
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Northolt
Can you fly IFR in the UK on a FAA IR in a G reg aircraft?
I have filed and flown IFR with an IMCR and through D airspace with out problem. Are you saying I was illegal?
I remember one of the questions in the IMC exam asking about which airspace I was “Not” allowed to fly in and it was defiantly A, B and C.
Anyway I have re-registered my AC to N and I’m doing the FAA IR so 90 Kts in Airways Here we come!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: London, England
Gruntos
Read the statement you have quoted and the earlier posts in this thread. An IMCR and an FAA IR are NOT the same. Although the CAA will issue a IMCR on the back of a FAA IR, this can only be done (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) onto a JAA licence.
So - if you only have a FAA licence (no JAA) they can't grant you a IMCR. Without the IMCR you can't fly IFR except in Class G, as you would be able to do with any ICAO IR licence.
Read the statement you have quoted and the earlier posts in this thread. An IMCR and an FAA IR are NOT the same. Although the CAA will issue a IMCR on the back of a FAA IR, this can only be done (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) onto a JAA licence.
So - if you only have a FAA licence (no JAA) they can't grant you a IMCR. Without the IMCR you can't fly IFR except in Class G, as you would be able to do with any ICAO IR licence.
