Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!
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Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!
Hi!
Well where ever i look in the UK it makes me cry! 6 thousand of the finest UK pounds! Every where i look! Even clubs that offer a "PPL package", they dont include such things as landing fees whcih i should budget a grand and a half on!
I'm not sure what to do as i wanna learn in the UK bu US schools offer it for 2500, obviously not including such things as flights, accom and test fees, but costing no more than say 4-5K all in!
How do UK schools keep in business!!!!!!!!???!!!!!
kempus
Well where ever i look in the UK it makes me cry! 6 thousand of the finest UK pounds! Every where i look! Even clubs that offer a "PPL package", they dont include such things as landing fees whcih i should budget a grand and a half on!
I'm not sure what to do as i wanna learn in the UK bu US schools offer it for 2500, obviously not including such things as flights, accom and test fees, but costing no more than say 4-5K all in!
How do UK schools keep in business!!!!!!!!???!!!!!
kempus
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________________________________
"Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!"
________________________________
Nope, probably more !
When you add on the Exam fees, equipment, etc; and the fact that you may not be ready to take your test after 45 hours. (Mine was nearer 70 and I know of people who are over 100 hrs and still havn't taken their test)
You can limit the cost by learning in a C152 and finding a club where the landing fees for where you learn are included in the membership/hire fees. Some will give you a discount for putting half or all of the cost up front.
If you want it, go for it. It's well worth the effort, sweat, tears, tantrums and, of course, the money in the end.
JB
"Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!"
________________________________
Nope, probably more !
When you add on the Exam fees, equipment, etc; and the fact that you may not be ready to take your test after 45 hours. (Mine was nearer 70 and I know of people who are over 100 hrs and still havn't taken their test)
You can limit the cost by learning in a C152 and finding a club where the landing fees for where you learn are included in the membership/hire fees. Some will give you a discount for putting half or all of the cost up front.
If you want it, go for it. It's well worth the effort, sweat, tears, tantrums and, of course, the money in the end.
JB
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Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!
The real question is: can you afford some hundreds of pounds per month to continue flying after you've got your PPL? (Or, are you only wanting to get the PPL to prove to yourself that you can pass the test after which you don't intend to fly any more?)
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I agree completely with Gertrude the Wombat.
Six grand is a lot of money. It's also two years' depreciation on a Ford Focus. Puts it in context really, because few people would consider you rich because you can buy a new Ford.
To continue to fly after you have a PPL you're looking at a minimum of a thousand a year after that. That will buy you the minimum hours to keep your licence in a shagged-out club C150, or a more reasonable amount in a PFA aeroplane flying out of a farmstrip - if that's your sort of thing (I like it, but it isn't for everybody so it isn't the solution to the cost of flying that some would have you believe). Flying a more reasonable number of hours a year from a flying club will cost two, three or four thousand a year - so after a few years the cost of the PPL isn't that significant compared to your total spend.
Like the PPL, continuing to fly isn't unaffordable - but for most of us it puts some limits on other things we might like to spend money on. It's just a matter of deciding what your priorities are.
Six grand is a lot of money. It's also two years' depreciation on a Ford Focus. Puts it in context really, because few people would consider you rich because you can buy a new Ford.
To continue to fly after you have a PPL you're looking at a minimum of a thousand a year after that. That will buy you the minimum hours to keep your licence in a shagged-out club C150, or a more reasonable amount in a PFA aeroplane flying out of a farmstrip - if that's your sort of thing (I like it, but it isn't for everybody so it isn't the solution to the cost of flying that some would have you believe). Flying a more reasonable number of hours a year from a flying club will cost two, three or four thousand a year - so after a few years the cost of the PPL isn't that significant compared to your total spend.
Like the PPL, continuing to fly isn't unaffordable - but for most of us it puts some limits on other things we might like to spend money on. It's just a matter of deciding what your priorities are.
If you want to fly desperately, and £6k is unafordable, then look at it from a slightly different angle.
Lots of people are flying different things, it just happens that the standard certified light aircraft is the conventional route, but far from the only - and most certainly not the cheapest.
(1) There are gliding clubs, where you fly as you can afford it, spend a lot of time around airfields, and instead of simply going for a licence are part of a continuous progression of improvement.
(2) Learn to fly a microlight. £6k will buy you an NPPL(M) course and a basic 2-seat aeroplane, which will then cost less than a quarter to run what a typical club Cessna will to hire.
(3) Ignore the JAR PPL (it's mainly a stepping stone to a commercial licence anyway) and do the NPPL(SEP), which will cost nearer £4k if you've a reasonable aptitude.
(4) Do (2), then if microlights don't satisfy you, move onto (3) where you'll get credit for most of your microlight training.
(5) Do any of the above, learning to fly in the UK relatively (note relatively!) cheaply, then if you want the group A licence, do a cheap course in Florida to upgrade later.
(6) Buy a basic PFA homebuilt for around £6k, then add another £2k to do your PPL in it. You're then £8k down, but own an aeroplane and can always get that £6k back if you give up.
(7) Do a course in Florida, then come back and add another £1k or so learning properly how to fly in British airspace.
There's nothing wrong with the "mainstream" route (apart from the cost, which is largely to do with the UK economic environment - don't blame the schools), but don't let anybody brainwash you into believing that it's the only route.
I'd suggest, seriously, that you go and spend a day or so each around the nearest glider and microlight schools, buy a lesson or two at each, and then decide how you feel about spending £6k.
G
Lots of people are flying different things, it just happens that the standard certified light aircraft is the conventional route, but far from the only - and most certainly not the cheapest.
(1) There are gliding clubs, where you fly as you can afford it, spend a lot of time around airfields, and instead of simply going for a licence are part of a continuous progression of improvement.
(2) Learn to fly a microlight. £6k will buy you an NPPL(M) course and a basic 2-seat aeroplane, which will then cost less than a quarter to run what a typical club Cessna will to hire.
(3) Ignore the JAR PPL (it's mainly a stepping stone to a commercial licence anyway) and do the NPPL(SEP), which will cost nearer £4k if you've a reasonable aptitude.
(4) Do (2), then if microlights don't satisfy you, move onto (3) where you'll get credit for most of your microlight training.
(5) Do any of the above, learning to fly in the UK relatively (note relatively!) cheaply, then if you want the group A licence, do a cheap course in Florida to upgrade later.
(6) Buy a basic PFA homebuilt for around £6k, then add another £2k to do your PPL in it. You're then £8k down, but own an aeroplane and can always get that £6k back if you give up.
(7) Do a course in Florida, then come back and add another £1k or so learning properly how to fly in British airspace.
There's nothing wrong with the "mainstream" route (apart from the cost, which is largely to do with the UK economic environment - don't blame the schools), but don't let anybody brainwash you into believing that it's the only route.
I'd suggest, seriously, that you go and spend a day or so each around the nearest glider and microlight schools, buy a lesson or two at each, and then decide how you feel about spending £6k.
G
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Lots of good ideas from Ghengis, and I think Evo is painting a slightly too pessimistic picture re: renting the shagged out 152... there's a small but growing number of clubs offering smart little 2 seat robins for about the same money. (C'mon Evo! Tsk tsk 
)
And if you don't quite make the hours, it's not like the nasty man at the CAA snatches your license away - you just go up with an examiner for an hour and do basic handling stuff. I paid £70 to do that option last year.
)And if you don't quite make the hours, it's not like the nasty man at the CAA snatches your license away - you just go up with an examiner for an hour and do basic handling stuff. I paid £70 to do that option last year.
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Evo is painting a slightly too pessimistic picture re: renting the shagged out 152...there's a small but growing number of clubs offering smart little 2 seat robins for about the same money.
A bit difficult to post without appearing to be soliciting for trade, but we charge way less than £100 (chock-to-chock) for a Warrior II plus instructor. No exam fees for the first attempt, no landing fees at base aerodrome, no headsets to pay for, no groundschool fees - but the downside is that our FIs are part-time volunteers, so booking lessons can sometimes present difficulties as it's a question of 'will there be someone available'.
The only way to keep costs low is to rely upon part-time volunteers who are happy to get some flying but don't rely on using it to pay their mortgage - just covering expenses and paying to take their other half out for dinner, perhaps. Regrettably it's a fact of modern life that there aren't many people who are able to give up their spare time to instruct because of pressures on their 'day job' and the ever-increasing (thank you, JAA...) cost of maintaining licence and rating. Having to pay £150+ every 6 months for our Class 1 medical being a case in point...
I have part-time FIs from a variety of backgrounds - a bank manager, engineer, airline pilots both active and retired, military pilots both active and retired, an airline purser, an automotive engineer, an IT software engineeer - all sorts of folk. But if I had to set up 'commercially' with 4 a/c and some full-time FIs, I'd be charging the same as every other school, I guess. We're non-profit making, so 'The Management' (me) don't add their profit element - which helps!
There's a reasonable chance that the impetus of the NPPL may precipitate changes in the whole PPL training world. The experienced part-time PPL/FI might reappear again in larger numbers. That should help to make PPL flying more affordable, with luck!
The only way to keep costs low is to rely upon part-time volunteers who are happy to get some flying but don't rely on using it to pay their mortgage - just covering expenses and paying to take their other half out for dinner, perhaps. Regrettably it's a fact of modern life that there aren't many people who are able to give up their spare time to instruct because of pressures on their 'day job' and the ever-increasing (thank you, JAA...) cost of maintaining licence and rating. Having to pay £150+ every 6 months for our Class 1 medical being a case in point...
I have part-time FIs from a variety of backgrounds - a bank manager, engineer, airline pilots both active and retired, military pilots both active and retired, an airline purser, an automotive engineer, an IT software engineeer - all sorts of folk. But if I had to set up 'commercially' with 4 a/c and some full-time FIs, I'd be charging the same as every other school, I guess. We're non-profit making, so 'The Management' (me) don't add their profit element - which helps!
There's a reasonable chance that the impetus of the NPPL may precipitate changes in the whole PPL training world. The experienced part-time PPL/FI might reappear again in larger numbers. That should help to make PPL flying more affordable, with luck!
But the point there BEagle, is that you are not part of a school - you are part of a club. Something that thankfully still exists in aviation, but seems to be harder to find the bigger the engine !
G
G
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Jacky Boy said.... "Some will give you a discount for putting half or all of the cost up front"
You're probably not stupid, but i'll say this anyway....
I went and paid £2k up front at my old flying school with the promise that i'd be saving around £500 - which included landing fees and membership etc..
Unfortunatly I didnt finish the PPL there because of weather and a crappy unorganised school and so when I moved to Leeds I joined another flying club.
The problem here was, that I hadnt finished all my hours at the old school and so the owner/devil asked us to pay everything full price, then he kept my money for months on end and refused to pay me. None of the "if you leave early you have to pay full price" was mentioned when he welcomed us with an open bank account....
My lesson learnt - dont pay up front unless you're 110% sure they're trustworthy, and/or you have EVERYTHING in writing.
Be careful, most clubs are great - but there are some owners who are in it for the profit
Good luck
You're probably not stupid, but i'll say this anyway....
I went and paid £2k up front at my old flying school with the promise that i'd be saving around £500 - which included landing fees and membership etc..
Unfortunatly I didnt finish the PPL there because of weather and a crappy unorganised school and so when I moved to Leeds I joined another flying club.
The problem here was, that I hadnt finished all my hours at the old school and so the owner/devil asked us to pay everything full price, then he kept my money for months on end and refused to pay me. None of the "if you leave early you have to pay full price" was mentioned when he welcomed us with an open bank account....
My lesson learnt - dont pay up front unless you're 110% sure they're trustworthy, and/or you have EVERYTHING in writing.
Be careful, most clubs are great - but there are some owners who are in it for the profit
Good luck
Flies for fun
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Beagle, it’s a bit difficult accusing you of soliciting business since you don’t even give a clue to your location. Be assured that there would be a very deep path beaten to your door if you were to disclose it. My 1hr revalidation flight at Shoreham recently cost me nearly £160 including warrior for 1 Hr. instructor and landing fee.
The hourly rate for a Warrior in the South seems to be around £100 per hour plus landing fee plus VAT
So where is it that you operate from?
The hourly rate for a Warrior in the South seems to be around £100 per hour plus landing fee plus VAT
So where is it that you operate from?
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Hey Kempus,
I hope you're not doing your PPL with the intention of becoming an airline pilot someday. If you think the costs are bad now, I guess you'll be looking to jump off Beachy Head when you see how much of that lovely cash you need to hand over to get just the necessary licence, let alone the tiny odds of actually landing a paid job at the end of it all.
I hope you're not doing your PPL with the intention of becoming an airline pilot someday. If you think the costs are bad now, I guess you'll be looking to jump off Beachy Head when you see how much of that lovely cash you need to hand over to get just the necessary licence, let alone the tiny odds of actually landing a paid job at the end of it all.
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I agree with Gengis in that you can consider many ways to gain a PPL. I did it "unconventionally" ... it took me about three years but cost very very little and only about 30 hrs of power flying.
As for maintaining your PPL ... ask yourself how much the average 20 a day smoker spends out? ... funny thing is, even the poorest seem to manage this habit and accept the cost. People don't tend to say "smoking, yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!", they just think about the health risk, but nobody seems to bats a eyelid at the cost. Mention flying and they do say "Yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!" ... they often point out the percieved health risk too? something about crashing??
SS
As for maintaining your PPL ... ask yourself how much the average 20 a day smoker spends out? ... funny thing is, even the poorest seem to manage this habit and accept the cost. People don't tend to say "smoking, yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!", they just think about the health risk, but nobody seems to bats a eyelid at the cost. Mention flying and they do say "Yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!" ... they often point out the percieved health risk too? something about crashing??
SS
Flies for fun
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Thanks for that FL, unfortunately it's a bit far for me but the aircraft look good.
http://www.qsl.net/g3tso/Aviation%20Page%203.html
http://www.qsl.net/g3tso/Aviation%20Page%203.html
The Original Whirly
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There's a nother way of looking at it....
Can you afford around £100 a week, maybe a bit more these days? To have something to do at weekends that you look forward to all week? Something that's fun, and a challenge, and a social occasion too?
Everyone says don't just book one lesson a week, because It'll take you longer to get your PPL. That's probably true. But does it matter? It also means you have something to look forward to, that isn't costing you a fortune, that just becomes a part of your normal social life. You have time to do the ground exams, without huge amount so of pressure.
Sure, you'll miss some lessons due to bad weather. but you haven't paid for them, so then you can think about maybe having two lessons a week when the weather gets better. And if it takes you longer to get your PPL, so what? What will you do while you're a student? Answer - fly. What will you do when you have your PPL? Answer - fly? And probably wonder what you should do next, and think about further qualifications and ratings, because the novelty of boring holes in the sky starts to wear a bit thin.
Don't think about the total cost. Think about whether you can afford £100+ a week for a fun day out. And if you weren't flying on that day, you'd probably be spending the money doing something else.
I did my PPL(A) that way and I still think it's a good idea.
Can you afford around £100 a week, maybe a bit more these days? To have something to do at weekends that you look forward to all week? Something that's fun, and a challenge, and a social occasion too?
Everyone says don't just book one lesson a week, because It'll take you longer to get your PPL. That's probably true. But does it matter? It also means you have something to look forward to, that isn't costing you a fortune, that just becomes a part of your normal social life. You have time to do the ground exams, without huge amount so of pressure.
Sure, you'll miss some lessons due to bad weather. but you haven't paid for them, so then you can think about maybe having two lessons a week when the weather gets better. And if it takes you longer to get your PPL, so what? What will you do while you're a student? Answer - fly. What will you do when you have your PPL? Answer - fly? And probably wonder what you should do next, and think about further qualifications and ratings, because the novelty of boring holes in the sky starts to wear a bit thin.
Don't think about the total cost. Think about whether you can afford £100+ a week for a fun day out. And if you weren't flying on that day, you'd probably be spending the money doing something else.
I did my PPL(A) that way and I still think it's a good idea.
That was an interesting link, Sensible - especially the amateur radio parts! Amazing how young a certain PPRuNer looked in 1965! And there's even someone using an old ex-Army 'Wireless Set no 12' like the one I used to wrestle with at around the same time!
Interesting thoughts Whirlybird, but my attitude is quite the opposite.
A few thousand pounds to achieve a lifetime ambition doesn't sound too bad. Stick the money in a special "flying" account when you start and from then on you don't feel you're spending anything.
£100+ a week, £433+ a month, month after month on the other hand sounds crippling. Think of taxiing in on a murky day after one of those depressing lessons where you mucked up stuff you were doing fine a few weeks ago, then thinking, "that miserable hour cost me £100, what else could I have done with the money?"
A few thousand pounds to achieve a lifetime ambition doesn't sound too bad. Stick the money in a special "flying" account when you start and from then on you don't feel you're spending anything.
£100+ a week, £433+ a month, month after month on the other hand sounds crippling. Think of taxiing in on a murky day after one of those depressing lessons where you mucked up stuff you were doing fine a few weeks ago, then thinking, "that miserable hour cost me £100, what else could I have done with the money?"