Written exams....
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Written exams....
... are they so easy?
Taken from one of the many Pink threads (hope the poster doesn't mind me quoting him here).....
How many of you passed all your written exams on the first try? Are they really so easy? It'll be interesting to see how many of you are willing to out yourselves.... 
I had to repeat all my writtens the first time around... that was 20 years ago and we only had 5 different ones. If you didn't pass at least 3, you repeated all... and at the time my German wasn't as good as today and the exams were only available in German (excuses, excuses
)
So tell me.... are they that easy or have many of you had to repeat them one or more times.... come on now, tell the truth
Westy
Taken from one of the many Pink threads (hope the poster doesn't mind me quoting him here).....
The majority of people pass them first time. They really are not very difficult.
I had to repeat all my writtens the first time around... that was 20 years ago and we only had 5 different ones. If you didn't pass at least 3, you repeated all... and at the time my German wasn't as good as today and the exams were only available in German (excuses, excuses
)So tell me.... are they that easy or have many of you had to repeat them one or more times.... come on now, tell the truth
Westy
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How many of you passed all your written exams on the first try?
Dunno what you had in Germany, but here in 1989 we had multiple choice questions many of which could be got right by common sense (and O level vectors and trig and other stuff you hadn't had to learn specially for flying), so to guess your way to 70% on the balance you'd need luck, but not outrageous luck.
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hi Gertrud,
here we had multiple-choice questions, too... but you had to get at least 75%. Between 75 and 85% you had an oral exam, meaning it wasn't enough to just memorize the answers but had to understand the questions. Obviously everyone tried to avoid going into that oral exam
Yes, some questions only needed common sense, but some, especially in air law, you could only try to memorize. Now, with JAR-FCL, you still need at least 75% but there's no oral exam (perhaps done at the skills test).
I didn't mind having not passed the first time... made me sit down and do some more study... which helped me to understand better...
Westy
here we had multiple-choice questions, too... but you had to get at least 75%. Between 75 and 85% you had an oral exam, meaning it wasn't enough to just memorize the answers but had to understand the questions. Obviously everyone tried to avoid going into that oral exam
Yes, some questions only needed common sense, but some, especially in air law, you could only try to memorize. Now, with JAR-FCL, you still need at least 75% but there's no oral exam (perhaps done at the skills test).
I didn't mind having not passed the first time... made me sit down and do some more study... which helped me to understand better...
Westy
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If I took the tests papers in German, I would probably have got 1%, and that for being able to spell my very Germanic name.
In my native language I must confess to never failing a paper, but the ease of passing depends on how much exam technique experience you have had, and what your non aviation qualifications are.
As the rules allow you more than one attempt, they obviously dont think failing first time disqualifies you from being a pilot
In my native language I must confess to never failing a paper, but the ease of passing depends on how much exam technique experience you have had, and what your non aviation qualifications are.
As the rules allow you more than one attempt, they obviously dont think failing first time disqualifies you from being a pilot
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Having not studied for many years I first felt daunted by the content of the PPL examination syllabus. Surprisingly I managed to pass all bar one at the first attempt. The one I failed was the aircraft technical. I thought this was one I would pass easily and therefore decided that I didn't need to study too hard for it...Big mistake. 60% no studying - 95% With revision.
Also have to admit I found myself getting back into the old study habits quite easily, made me feel young again!
Also have to admit I found myself getting back into the old study habits quite easily, made me feel young again!
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How many of you passed all your written exams on the first try? Are they really so easy? It'll be interesting to see how many of you are willing to out yourselves...
Still, I find myself not knowing about many things I really should understand - so I'm not sure if the exams are too easy, or just irrelevant to real flying...
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I did the old pre-JAR exams in 1997/8, though I don't think there's a lot of difference. I passed all at the first attempt except RT. But I don't think they're all that easy. Sure, if you have a scientific background and/or have done at least A levels and possibly a degree, preferably recently, then they're not that big a deal. But I recently taught groundschool to a chap in his 50s who left school at 15 having never passed an exam in his life, and hadn't studied anything for over 30 years. He had no idea how to study, and very little confidence. Most of what I did was to help him with a study plan and assure him he could do it. But he really wasn't helped by the people who told him the exams were easy. Everyone's different, and there are a surprising number of people who are very intelligent, know lots about aviation, but seem to have ****** all in the way of knowledge of or empathy with a large proportion of their fellow human beings.
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I think the exams are easy for someone who has an engineering / technical education and did well in it, and fairly hard otherwise.
A great deal of the stuff is irrelevant to flying, too. Either because nobody needs to know what year ICAO dates back to, or because things like the slide rule are a very bad way of doing the required computations.
A lot of the answers are also "wrong" in that they make sense in the context of particular Trevor Thom type terminology but someone who knows the subject from a non-PPL angle would have disagreed with the expected correct answer.
A great deal of the stuff is irrelevant to flying, too. Either because nobody needs to know what year ICAO dates back to, or because things like the slide rule are a very bad way of doing the required computations.
A lot of the answers are also "wrong" in that they make sense in the context of particular Trevor Thom type terminology but someone who knows the subject from a non-PPL angle would have disagreed with the expected correct answer.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
For what it's worth, I got all of mine (JAR PPL) first time. I got 100% in 2 or 3 of them 
With the exception if Air Law I found them ridiculously easy. The aircraft technical was so easy I finished it in 15 minutes.
Of course, they weren't in German
The only problem I had was leaving it so late doing the last few - I think I ended up doing 4 in 3 weeks - to stay within the 1 year validity! It was just the thought of having to redo Air Law for no good reason (laziness is not a good reason
) that made me finish them.
I agree with IO540 - if you have a background in technical stuff it makes it a lot easier. I'm a civil engineer working in IT with a lifelong love of aviation and some gliding experience behind me before I started my PPL. I also like cars and oily engines and stuff.
My anorak's in the boot...
SD
With the exception if Air Law I found them ridiculously easy. The aircraft technical was so easy I finished it in 15 minutes.
Of course, they weren't in German
The only problem I had was leaving it so late doing the last few - I think I ended up doing 4 in 3 weeks - to stay within the 1 year validity! It was just the thought of having to redo Air Law for no good reason (laziness is not a good reason
) that made me finish them.I agree with IO540 - if you have a background in technical stuff it makes it a lot easier. I'm a civil engineer working in IT with a lifelong love of aviation and some gliding experience behind me before I started my PPL. I also like cars and oily engines and stuff.
My anorak's in the boot...
SD
I can tell you something for sure, they were a hell of a lot easier in 1986 than they are now. I took all of them (I think there were five) in the space of a fortnight without a problem. Don't remeber having to know when the Chicago Convention was or that CL=1/2 rho v2 S back then.
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me again....
Thanks for all the posts so far!
Whirly has a point... I was 34 when I took mine and was "only" a house wife and mother at the time. I had been out of school for at least 15 years, thus studying was a bit hard. Especially with the technical parts, any guy (or gal) that already knows lots about car mechanics, etc. has a natural advantage. Air law is difficult because a lot of it has no relation to "practical" flying... (who cares where the ICAO offices are located!).
An interesting point I've noticed (unless I missunderstood postings I have been reading here and elsewhere)....before and after JAR it was/is necessary in Germany to have ALL writtens accomplished before being able to fly solo cross country, especially the radio (RT). Isn't that true in other JAR, or non-JAR countries?
Westy
Thanks for all the posts so far!
Whirly has a point... I was 34 when I took mine and was "only" a house wife and mother at the time. I had been out of school for at least 15 years, thus studying was a bit hard. Especially with the technical parts, any guy (or gal) that already knows lots about car mechanics, etc. has a natural advantage. Air law is difficult because a lot of it has no relation to "practical" flying... (who cares where the ICAO offices are located!).
An interesting point I've noticed (unless I missunderstood postings I have been reading here and elsewhere)....before and after JAR it was/is necessary in Germany to have ALL writtens accomplished before being able to fly solo cross country, especially the radio (RT). Isn't that true in other JAR, or non-JAR countries?
Westy
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Note to self: must do some analysis of the posts from people who found Air Law "...irrelevant to real flying..." -v- questions about VFR/IFR, VMC/IMC, IMC-rating validation and usage, how do you complete a flight plan (and therefore how to use AIS properly) etc.
There was more to the Air Law syllabus than the date of the Chicago Convention
I did mine pre-JAR. 75% required. All passed. Needed Air Law to do first solo plus needed Met. and Nav. to do QXC.
There was more to the Air Law syllabus than the date of the Chicago Convention
I did mine pre-JAR. 75% required. All passed. Needed Air Law to do first solo plus needed Met. and Nav. to do QXC.
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I'm with Evo (also passed all the PPL and IMC examinations first time), and could not, and still cannot, believe they were so easy. (Oh, and I might add that I know nothing of car mechanics, etc.: I merely drive the things and expect qualified mechanical practitioners to sort them out if they go wrong!)
Furthermore, I do not believe that MCQ really tests synthesis of argument and priority setting adequately. Surely these abilities, involved in producing a realistic course of action to solve a problem in real time, ought to be tested as much as memory and simple arithmetic?
At least one paper, essay based in order to give the candidate chance to express the sequence of their thought processes, and a judgment to be formed by the examiner, would surely not be too onerous.
Furthermore, I do not believe that MCQ really tests synthesis of argument and priority setting adequately. Surely these abilities, involved in producing a realistic course of action to solve a problem in real time, ought to be tested as much as memory and simple arithmetic?
At least one paper, essay based in order to give the candidate chance to express the sequence of their thought processes, and a judgment to be formed by the examiner, would surely not be too onerous.
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must do some analysis of the posts from people who found Air Law "...irrelevant to real flying..."
I find it hard to believe the exams are sufficient when I can get high marks and yet not know basic information about the subject - for example, despite 100% in the IMC exam I would have great difficulty in planning an IFR flight from Shoreham to Exeter. Something wrong there, don't you think?
Met is another subject that I know very little about, and i'm saved from my lack of knowledge mainly by the fact that i'm not flying in marginal weather anyway. If I had to understand the subject well enough to make go/no-go decisions in marginal VFR ... well, I couldn't. And Human Factors - this is such an important part of so many accidents, yet the exam is so simplistic that you could give it to a halfway-intelligent non-pilot and they would pass without looking at a book.
I think that the PPL and IMC flight-tests should have an FAA-style oral examination. The examiner could ask what he likes about the subjects that you're supposed to understand and you have to convince him that you know your stuff - and if you cannot, the test is over before it starts. Could I do that? I hope so, but I'm not sure - and that doesn't really square with my exam marks, does it?
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Evo - I thought I was paraphrasing rather than quoting you - sorry mate, wasn't really aimed at anyone in particular
Maybe it is more to do with attitude/expectations than exam content...
e.g. If you go to the exam expecting to be asked anything from the entire syllabus then presumably one would study everything relevant to that - and would breeze through the exam but also be able to do the other, real-flying-relevant things, as well: Like flight plan completion...
Maybe it is more to do with attitude/expectations than exam content...
e.g. If you go to the exam expecting to be asked anything from the entire syllabus then presumably one would study everything relevant to that - and would breeze through the exam but also be able to do the other, real-flying-relevant things, as well: Like flight plan completion...
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Rustle
The PPL exams are just that, exams, same as O-level, college, degree exams the purpose is to sit an exam and not to show you know anything practically useful
I know this is a favourite topic of mine but one doesn't learn stuff in the PPL that's really useful for going to places. No doubt, because most PPL holders don't actually go anywhere by the time they let it lapse. (And many people do point out that they just like to fly around locally without going anywhere - perfectly legitimate).
If a large % of new PPL holders suddenly started doing 200 mile x/c flights, incl. going abroad, and navigated the way they've been taught in the PPL, I GUARANTEE all hell would break loose and the whole training setup would need to be overhauled.
The PPL exams are just that, exams, same as O-level, college, degree exams the purpose is to sit an exam and not to show you know anything practically useful
I know this is a favourite topic of mine but one doesn't learn stuff in the PPL that's really useful for going to places. No doubt, because most PPL holders don't actually go anywhere by the time they let it lapse. (And many people do point out that they just like to fly around locally without going anywhere - perfectly legitimate).
If a large % of new PPL holders suddenly started doing 200 mile x/c flights, incl. going abroad, and navigated the way they've been taught in the PPL, I GUARANTEE all hell would break loose and the whole training setup would need to be overhauled.
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Let's get this in perspective folks. The PPL is a LICENCE TO LEARN. It gives you the BASICS of flying, the BASIC knowledge needed in order to fly safely and legally, and hopefully the basics of airmanship, decision-making and so on. You then have a lifetime in which to learn the rest. And if it were to be otherwise, it would take even longer than it does now.
Instead of having harder exams - and they're tough on people who never got beyond "O" levels, haven't studied for years, and are not technically minded, believe me - we need to impress on new PPLs how little they know. Some are dangerously over-confident...I know I was, for a short while, until I scared myself. We also need to make it easier for them to learn more...by flying with more experienced pilots, or going on courses, perhaps.
Our society is exam obsessed. It's only one way of learning, and IMHO not a very good one. We need to make sure people realise the need to learn in ALL ways - by studying, and reading AAIB reports, and flying, and learning from other people, and asking questions, and practising; and above all, knowing themselves and their limitations. That last one is tough.
Instead of having harder exams - and they're tough on people who never got beyond "O" levels, haven't studied for years, and are not technically minded, believe me - we need to impress on new PPLs how little they know. Some are dangerously over-confident...I know I was, for a short while, until I scared myself. We also need to make it easier for them to learn more...by flying with more experienced pilots, or going on courses, perhaps.
Our society is exam obsessed. It's only one way of learning, and IMHO not a very good one. We need to make sure people realise the need to learn in ALL ways - by studying, and reading AAIB reports, and flying, and learning from other people, and asking questions, and practising; and above all, knowing themselves and their limitations. That last one is tough.
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I also passed all my exams at the first attempt, and like somebody else posted a few at 100%, I didnt find any of them really taxing and I dont class myself as particularly brainy, I left school at 16 with modest qualifications as when I woke up to the fact that i needed to get my arse in gear it was kinda too late, I had to study for 2 years for my current job and take 12 exams which I passed ok and I did do an Open University Maths course the year before I started my PPL so this helped me get back into it, Im just not looking forward to the ATPLs 
Wise and true words spoken there Whirly.
D.
Wise and true words spoken there Whirly.
D.
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h Whirly!
again I have to agree with you
Some of the clubs and organisations over here offer review seminars, etc. Guess who go to them? The pilots that don't need them! They're the ones that keep up-to-date all the time and do lots of flying.
The one's that really SHOULD attend and really NEED it just don't bother! Pity, really.... but I guess they were never told that a PPL is a licence to learn.....
Westy
again I have to agree with you
Some of the clubs and organisations over here offer review seminars, etc. Guess who go to them? The pilots that don't need them! They're the ones that keep up-to-date all the time and do lots of flying.
The one's that really SHOULD attend and really NEED it just don't bother! Pity, really.... but I guess they were never told that a PPL is a licence to learn.....
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Yes, I agree with much of the content of previous points.
My concern is that I believe nothing in the present examination regime tests that a candidate can take a number of real time inputs, construct a mental model of the situation, establish sensible priorities, and take appropriate action - all in real time. I am, though, entirely willing to concede that I may have misunderstood interlinked subtleties of the question setting between subjects: those professional educators on the forum will, no doubt, have informed views on this. My point of view about these examinations is based in my experience of practical examinations in another sphere of activity.
A viva voce might do so, though it would still be subject to any inherent variation between dispersed examiners. An essay-type paper could do so perhaps as well, or, if marked centrally, by a moderated group of examiners, perhaps better.
Either way, a viva voce , or a written paper, could well serve a need to establish that prospective pilots can communicate adequately.
My concern is that I believe nothing in the present examination regime tests that a candidate can take a number of real time inputs, construct a mental model of the situation, establish sensible priorities, and take appropriate action - all in real time. I am, though, entirely willing to concede that I may have misunderstood interlinked subtleties of the question setting between subjects: those professional educators on the forum will, no doubt, have informed views on this. My point of view about these examinations is based in my experience of practical examinations in another sphere of activity.
A viva voce might do so, though it would still be subject to any inherent variation between dispersed examiners. An essay-type paper could do so perhaps as well, or, if marked centrally, by a moderated group of examiners, perhaps better.
Either way, a viva voce , or a written paper, could well serve a need to establish that prospective pilots can communicate adequately.