why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
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IO540, your problem is with your maintenance person. I ran a PT C of A aircraft and got all my parts from Aircraft Spruce. My man accepted their invoice as the release - and why not - the parts were all new, or specific to type.
The more I see the exploits of some M3 organisations, the more I am happier to do my own maintenance and get it signed off.
The more I see the exploits of some M3 organisations, the more I am happier to do my own maintenance and get it signed off.
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Javelin
If you have a British registered aircraft and are fitting parts that you can not trace back to a JAA Form One or an FAA form 8130-3 then you are breaking the law.
An Invoice is not enough this is fact and I dont see why you should slag off M3 companys that are keeping within the law when you are breaking it.
So far on this thread we have seen :
The person who thinks that an annual check can be done for $900 or £500.
A statment that the JAA ban you from working on your own aircraft under supervision.
And just to finnish off a person recomending fitting parts with out the paperwork that is required by law.
This just has to be a joke because these peope cant be that stupid............... or can they ?.
An Invoice is not enough this is fact and I dont see why you should slag off M3 companys that are keeping within the law when you are breaking it.
So far on this thread we have seen :
The person who thinks that an annual check can be done for $900 or £500.
A statment that the JAA ban you from working on your own aircraft under supervision.
And just to finnish off a person recomending fitting parts with out the paperwork that is required by law.
This just has to be a joke because these peope cant be that stupid............... or can they ?.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Apr 2004 at 07:49.
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A and C
I agree re the documentation required. However I have seen a tendency to insist on JAR docs without mentioning the 8130-3, which prevents one purchasing an item directly from the USA and free-issuing it to the maintenance shop (i.e. cutting out the UK importer's margin plus the maintenance shop's trade discount profit margin). If one is ignorant of this, one can pay thousands extra for major items like a prop. One can get an 8130-3 for most items imported mail order from the USA, at costs varying from zero to say $100; the latter is exorbitant for a small item and this stops one buying many items directly from the USA.
I don't think you can generalise about customers' [in]ability to handle a screwdriver. I once got one maintenance place to replace a lot of screws they chewed up; the use of power screwdrivers without a torque limiter seems pretty universal, so the pozi screws get mangled pretty regularly. The people also don't seem to know how to pick up an existing female thread (turn the screw slowly backwards until it clicks, or at least turn it forwards gently); they just hold the screwdriver at max revs against the hole until eventually it goes in... And I've seen worse. With nearly all planes they work on being older than themselves, being in generally poor condition and often being booked in by stingy customers (flying schools), if one has something one wants to be looked after one needs to choose the maint shop carefully and stick with it. There are plenty of aircraft owners who are good enough engineers to easily do a lot of the work.
I agree re the documentation required. However I have seen a tendency to insist on JAR docs without mentioning the 8130-3, which prevents one purchasing an item directly from the USA and free-issuing it to the maintenance shop (i.e. cutting out the UK importer's margin plus the maintenance shop's trade discount profit margin). If one is ignorant of this, one can pay thousands extra for major items like a prop. One can get an 8130-3 for most items imported mail order from the USA, at costs varying from zero to say $100; the latter is exorbitant for a small item and this stops one buying many items directly from the USA.
I don't think you can generalise about customers' [in]ability to handle a screwdriver. I once got one maintenance place to replace a lot of screws they chewed up; the use of power screwdrivers without a torque limiter seems pretty universal, so the pozi screws get mangled pretty regularly. The people also don't seem to know how to pick up an existing female thread (turn the screw slowly backwards until it clicks, or at least turn it forwards gently); they just hold the screwdriver at max revs against the hole until eventually it goes in... And I've seen worse. With nearly all planes they work on being older than themselves, being in generally poor condition and often being booked in by stingy customers (flying schools), if one has something one wants to be looked after one needs to choose the maint shop carefully and stick with it. There are plenty of aircraft owners who are good enough engineers to easily do a lot of the work.
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IO540
I have no problem in theory with customers working on aircraft that they own , in fact I would encourage it.
However after 20 years of fixing aircraft I have found that more often than not the customer is more hinderance that help and in the end puts the price up not down.
The big problem is that customer ego is such that they find it hard to except that they have F***ed up a job that a mear engineer could do , and this becomes a problem.
I once had to reject on quality grounds a job that a custormer had done , he went off in a rage to another engieering company who had the same type of problems with him.
May be I an guilty of generalising about customers but it is with some years of problems in the area , but what would you think the local BMW dealer would say if you said that you wanted to fix your car in his workshop......... I think you are likely to be told that it is not company policy.
I would try to be more accomodating but for reasons outlined above it is not always easy !.
However after 20 years of fixing aircraft I have found that more often than not the customer is more hinderance that help and in the end puts the price up not down.
The big problem is that customer ego is such that they find it hard to except that they have F***ed up a job that a mear engineer could do , and this becomes a problem.
I once had to reject on quality grounds a job that a custormer had done , he went off in a rage to another engieering company who had the same type of problems with him.
May be I an guilty of generalising about customers but it is with some years of problems in the area , but what would you think the local BMW dealer would say if you said that you wanted to fix your car in his workshop......... I think you are likely to be told that it is not company policy.
I would try to be more accomodating but for reasons outlined above it is not always easy !.
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Javelin,
Why not vote with you feet and go elsewhere? I spent 4 years flying a Piper Cub and didnt pay a landing fee of over £5.00...because I chose where I wanted to go and restricted myself to small airfields and farmers strips..I still had a fantastic time doing so.
And why should airfields discount you for providing fuel? Often the fuel is provided by other companies who never get to see the landing fees....Same goes for the food. You dont get a discount for food at a garage because you have filled your tank with Petrol!
The only reason these airfields continue to charge exorbitant amounts is because people will continue to fly into them. Do bear in mind that if somebody is paying £100-200+ per hour, then £20 on top of that isnt going to hit them in the wallet that hard, and the top dollar airfields know this. This is why Biggin Hill, Oxford, Fairoaks etc charge high prices....Light GA visitors are the least of their worries; infact, maybe they even hike the prices up to deter the light GA traffic?
You dont see many Piper Cubs parked on the aprons of these airfields!
Yet we go to some airfields in the UK, they snarl as you land, snatch a landing fee off you, won't discount it if you fuel or buy food and then snarl as you leave.
And why should airfields discount you for providing fuel? Often the fuel is provided by other companies who never get to see the landing fees....Same goes for the food. You dont get a discount for food at a garage because you have filled your tank with Petrol!
The only reason these airfields continue to charge exorbitant amounts is because people will continue to fly into them. Do bear in mind that if somebody is paying £100-200+ per hour, then £20 on top of that isnt going to hit them in the wallet that hard, and the top dollar airfields know this. This is why Biggin Hill, Oxford, Fairoaks etc charge high prices....Light GA visitors are the least of their worries; infact, maybe they even hike the prices up to deter the light GA traffic?
You dont see many Piper Cubs parked on the aprons of these airfields!
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Right - Here goes then !
A & C - having owned 3 C of A aeroplanes, 1 on PT, the others on PVT and having seen the results of some M3 establishments, I have been utterly disgusted. On one, the majority of machine screws on the cowl had been replaced by self tappers, and a fabric repair was done with gaffa tape stitched on to existing fabric. The other one had items missed form regular inspections and an inverted valve that was seized solid despite a fresh C of A. The third had a similar number of self tappers used and other hideous botch ups.
On the other hand I have had 5 permit aeroplanes that have had on the whole, been maintained to a very good standard. A few oo er's here and there but no horror stories.
I wouldn't use an M3 establishment unless someone else was paying the bill. In my experience, they rip the average punter off with very average maintenance and bull which pervades the whole of UK GA.
Traceability is required to the manufacturer of the item - period. If the supplier can provide that to a court of inquiry, then I am happy 'cos I probably won't be there. Why should I pay £20 for a spark plug that I can get for £12 direct from the States - is there a market for forged REM40E's ? A part is a part is a part, provided it comes from a reputable supplier like Aircraft Spruce, Univair, Wicks, or similar.
IO 540 - totally agree about the screw thing but most of my problems have been when some gibbon of a mechanic has been let loose on an aeroplane I have bought.
As private pilots you have to realise that most, not all, maintenance establishments employ non licenced staff to do the work, the licenced engineer then signs off their work. That is exactly what I do with my aeroplanes, however I take care, time and pride in a job well done - I don't do it against a clock or for bonus.
To sum up, I believe that there are some outstanding engineers out there who have spent a long time and lots of money getting their licences. It is to them that I turn to for help, guidance, sign offs and I pay a fair amount for their expertise and time. It is a great shame that there are also a lot of people who have identified GA maintenance as an easy way to make money and do so under the false umbrella that aeroplanes are special.
Zlin - I do go to places where value is to be had - it just irritates me when other folk get scorched when they visit places where the service is poor and the charges are high. Sadly you sometimes end up somewhere different and get reminded that everywhere isn't little aeroplane friendly. In 2 years, my Champ has seen tarmac once - yes I got scorched for a £10 landing fee and won't return
A & C - having owned 3 C of A aeroplanes, 1 on PT, the others on PVT and having seen the results of some M3 establishments, I have been utterly disgusted. On one, the majority of machine screws on the cowl had been replaced by self tappers, and a fabric repair was done with gaffa tape stitched on to existing fabric. The other one had items missed form regular inspections and an inverted valve that was seized solid despite a fresh C of A. The third had a similar number of self tappers used and other hideous botch ups.
On the other hand I have had 5 permit aeroplanes that have had on the whole, been maintained to a very good standard. A few oo er's here and there but no horror stories.
I wouldn't use an M3 establishment unless someone else was paying the bill. In my experience, they rip the average punter off with very average maintenance and bull which pervades the whole of UK GA.
Traceability is required to the manufacturer of the item - period. If the supplier can provide that to a court of inquiry, then I am happy 'cos I probably won't be there. Why should I pay £20 for a spark plug that I can get for £12 direct from the States - is there a market for forged REM40E's ? A part is a part is a part, provided it comes from a reputable supplier like Aircraft Spruce, Univair, Wicks, or similar.
IO 540 - totally agree about the screw thing but most of my problems have been when some gibbon of a mechanic has been let loose on an aeroplane I have bought.
As private pilots you have to realise that most, not all, maintenance establishments employ non licenced staff to do the work, the licenced engineer then signs off their work. That is exactly what I do with my aeroplanes, however I take care, time and pride in a job well done - I don't do it against a clock or for bonus.
To sum up, I believe that there are some outstanding engineers out there who have spent a long time and lots of money getting their licences. It is to them that I turn to for help, guidance, sign offs and I pay a fair amount for their expertise and time. It is a great shame that there are also a lot of people who have identified GA maintenance as an easy way to make money and do so under the false umbrella that aeroplanes are special.
Zlin - I do go to places where value is to be had - it just irritates me when other folk get scorched when they visit places where the service is poor and the charges are high. Sadly you sometimes end up somewhere different and get reminded that everywhere isn't little aeroplane friendly. In 2 years, my Champ has seen tarmac once - yes I got scorched for a £10 landing fee and won't return
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Cheapest is best
Javelin
I have never seen workmanship of the type that you discribe come out of any of the reputable M3 companys that I have had anything to do with over the last 20 or so years.
However I have seen this sort of thing from one or two of the very cheap operators that most people in the business would have nothing to do with.
I once had an annual check to do on an aircraft that had been maintained by one of these people , if I remember correctly about 36 SB,s and a whole string of AD,s had never been done including 2 AD,s that I would put in the ultra safety critical list , one of these items the owner had a recipt for but no other paperwork.
The owner was delighted with the work untill presented with a bill IRO £3500 for the work He complaned refused to pay and when finaly court action was pending paid up.
The next time that maintenance was due he was back with the man who just rubs the aircraft with an oily rag and charges £800 for an annual dispite the fact that we had proved that he had been ripped off over a safety critical item .
I suspect that you fall into the same catorgory as the above owner , you know what good maintenance is but are just not prepaired to pay for it.
As for the parts that you are buying there is no reason not to go directly to the USA for them but you must get the supplier to provide an FAA form 8130-3 for them Remember that there may not be the market for bogus in the UK but in the USA the market is big enough to make fake aircraft bits a worthwile crime.
The 8130-3 form is your best protection from bogus parts and without it you are breaking the law.
Remember In this life you only get what you pay for , High quality maintenance is never cheap but in the long run it will save you money , but some people will never be able to see past the next maintenance bill and I can only shudder to think what price they put on there own lives and the lives of the people who fly in there aircraft.
I have never seen workmanship of the type that you discribe come out of any of the reputable M3 companys that I have had anything to do with over the last 20 or so years.
However I have seen this sort of thing from one or two of the very cheap operators that most people in the business would have nothing to do with.
I once had an annual check to do on an aircraft that had been maintained by one of these people , if I remember correctly about 36 SB,s and a whole string of AD,s had never been done including 2 AD,s that I would put in the ultra safety critical list , one of these items the owner had a recipt for but no other paperwork.
The owner was delighted with the work untill presented with a bill IRO £3500 for the work He complaned refused to pay and when finaly court action was pending paid up.
The next time that maintenance was due he was back with the man who just rubs the aircraft with an oily rag and charges £800 for an annual dispite the fact that we had proved that he had been ripped off over a safety critical item .
I suspect that you fall into the same catorgory as the above owner , you know what good maintenance is but are just not prepaired to pay for it.
As for the parts that you are buying there is no reason not to go directly to the USA for them but you must get the supplier to provide an FAA form 8130-3 for them Remember that there may not be the market for bogus in the UK but in the USA the market is big enough to make fake aircraft bits a worthwile crime.
The 8130-3 form is your best protection from bogus parts and without it you are breaking the law.
Remember In this life you only get what you pay for , High quality maintenance is never cheap but in the long run it will save you money , but some people will never be able to see past the next maintenance bill and I can only shudder to think what price they put on there own lives and the lives of the people who fly in there aircraft.
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A and C
THAT is exactly the problem. If there are five JAR145 maintenance outfits within say 50 miles of each other, and two of them are bodgers, the other three will know exactly who the bodgers are. In fact probably all five of them will know 
Similarly, if on a nearby airfield there is somebody running half a dozen C152s which he rents out to local flying schools and has done so for the last 10 years, he will also know who the bodgers are. (Which doesn't mean he won't use them, if they are cheaper, but that's a separate issue)
The problem starts when Joe Public has got his PPL and wants to fly, has realised that he cannot get the access and/or the standard of aircraft he wants by self fly hire, so he gets some do$h and buys something.
He doesn't know anybody "in the business". He probably asked his old instructors who the cowboys are. But obviously they never wanted him to buy a plane! And anyway they aren't usually responsible for maintenance. And, in GA, a lot of people slag off a lot of other people, especially when the weather is bad and business is thin.
So Joe Public ends up with a plane with duct tape, mangled screw heads, and you name it. A few years later he realises but by then he's paid the price.
I am writing this from first hand experience, BTW. Maintenance is a real minefield for a newcomer. But then so is aircraft ownership in general. Taking GA as a business, it doesn't carry its fair share of straight people.
Incidentally, do you have a reference for what paperwork is stipulated by the CAA? I know for a fact that some insurers' loss adjusters (who are LAME qualified) don't know about the 8130-3 option and end up paying loads extra for major parts.
However I have seen this sort of thing from one or two of the very cheap operators that most people in the business would have nothing to do with.
Similarly, if on a nearby airfield there is somebody running half a dozen C152s which he rents out to local flying schools and has done so for the last 10 years, he will also know who the bodgers are. (Which doesn't mean he won't use them, if they are cheaper, but that's a separate issue)
The problem starts when Joe Public has got his PPL and wants to fly, has realised that he cannot get the access and/or the standard of aircraft he wants by self fly hire, so he gets some do$h and buys something.
He doesn't know anybody "in the business". He probably asked his old instructors who the cowboys are. But obviously they never wanted him to buy a plane! And anyway they aren't usually responsible for maintenance. And, in GA, a lot of people slag off a lot of other people, especially when the weather is bad and business is thin.
So Joe Public ends up with a plane with duct tape, mangled screw heads, and you name it. A few years later he realises but by then he's paid the price.
I am writing this from first hand experience, BTW. Maintenance is a real minefield for a newcomer. But then so is aircraft ownership in general. Taking GA as a business, it doesn't carry its fair share of straight people.
Incidentally, do you have a reference for what paperwork is stipulated by the CAA? I know for a fact that some insurers' loss adjusters (who are LAME qualified) don't know about the 8130-3 option and end up paying loads extra for major parts.
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A&C
I find it hard to believe you 'only know of one or two' maintenance scoundrals.
My experience is that it is hard to find that number with a combination of competance and honesty,and its not a matter of cheap scating, in fact the more you pay the bigger fool you are taken for by many maintenance operations
Fortunately one is not limited to the UK for maintenance.
I find it hard to believe you 'only know of one or two' maintenance scoundrals.
My experience is that it is hard to find that number with a combination of competance and honesty,and its not a matter of cheap scating, in fact the more you pay the bigger fool you are taken for by many maintenance operations
Fortunately one is not limited to the UK for maintenance.
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IO540
You will find the details of the use of aircraft parts from the USA in Airwothiness notice 17 para 4.4 its on the CAA website but I dont have the link.
Bluskis
I could tell you of two or three more that are suspect but not to this degree and not that I have had rock solid evidence of.
As to the bigger outfits they dont usualy produce bad work but on one occasion I stopped one of the biggest of them taking the wing off a PA34 for a cracked spar , the "crack" could be wiped off with a cloth it turned out to be a streak of grease thrown from a landing gear bearing !.
I do quite a bit of overseing maintenance for aircraft owners and i find that this works for both partys the owners get someone in there pay to keep the engineering companys honest and the engineers get someone who knows the business that they can talk to about the more difficult items.
You will find the details of the use of aircraft parts from the USA in Airwothiness notice 17 para 4.4 its on the CAA website but I dont have the link.
Bluskis
I could tell you of two or three more that are suspect but not to this degree and not that I have had rock solid evidence of.
As to the bigger outfits they dont usualy produce bad work but on one occasion I stopped one of the biggest of them taking the wing off a PA34 for a cracked spar , the "crack" could be wiped off with a cloth it turned out to be a streak of grease thrown from a landing gear bearing !.
I do quite a bit of overseing maintenance for aircraft owners and i find that this works for both partys the owners get someone in there pay to keep the engineering companys honest and the engineers get someone who knows the business that they can talk to about the more difficult items.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Apr 2004 at 22:09.
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A&C
Should my present base let me down,which I do not anticipate,and should I brave the UK maintenance industry again your service makes a lot of sense, however my dissillusionment with the UK is probably irreprable, except in avionics where I have dealt satisfactorily with the same base for over 30 years.
Should my present base let me down,which I do not anticipate,and should I brave the UK maintenance industry again your service makes a lot of sense, however my dissillusionment with the UK is probably irreprable, except in avionics where I have dealt satisfactorily with the same base for over 30 years.
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Been there, done it <sigh>. The previous owner of our group aircraft used to fly it 100nm for maintenance, to an outfit that charged 20% less than the local one.
The group members were more picky, and when we started finding gross errors in the work "done", we asked questions.
The last "error" was so bad that we thought it hazarded the aircraft, and told the maint org so. We got a "p*$$ off" reply, so wrote it up and sent it to the CAA.
The firm closed down about three months later - whether through our complaint or others, we know not.
We're happy with the one we use now, we have a "good working relationship", and they know us and the aircraft. More to the point, whenever any major part needs replacing, I get a call to go to have a look. Sometimes they'll say "It's probably good for another 50 hours", sometimes not. But we trust each other.
How did we find that particular firm? Asked all the other groups on the field. Same way I found out that Naples Air Center is the place to go to do an FAA IR - lots of good recommendations, maybe a few minor niggles, but no horror stories...
...apart from the £14,000 bill for a C of A five years ago. But the prop was past it, and those two pots did need replacing.
The group members were more picky, and when we started finding gross errors in the work "done", we asked questions.
The last "error" was so bad that we thought it hazarded the aircraft, and told the maint org so. We got a "p*$$ off" reply, so wrote it up and sent it to the CAA.
The firm closed down about three months later - whether through our complaint or others, we know not.
We're happy with the one we use now, we have a "good working relationship", and they know us and the aircraft. More to the point, whenever any major part needs replacing, I get a call to go to have a look. Sometimes they'll say "It's probably good for another 50 hours", sometimes not. But we trust each other.
How did we find that particular firm? Asked all the other groups on the field. Same way I found out that Naples Air Center is the place to go to do an FAA IR - lots of good recommendations, maybe a few minor niggles, but no horror stories...
...apart from the £14,000 bill for a C of A five years ago. But the prop was past it, and those two pots did need replacing.
