why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
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I think flying is now less expensive than it has ever been, I am not a big fan of landing fees as most airports could make more money by selling fuel & food if they would reduce the fees. but there are plenty of deals like Oxford at weekends ( buy fuel and dont pay fees)
Those who winge will winge anyway, sad thing is they put people off flying by making out it is more expensive than it really is
Those who winge will winge anyway, sad thing is they put people off flying by making out it is more expensive than it really is
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Hows about you look at the purpose of the flight.
If I want to fly for my own pleasure that's a Private Flight yes? Not if I hire the aircraft or pay for an instructor to accompany me it's not. Do either of those and you require a Transport category C of A and the instructor needs a CPL and a Class 1.
Take driving lessons and you don't find the car having to be maintained differently or the instructor having to have a pUblic Service Vehicle licence and medical.
If the aircraft and instructor are safe with a Private Cat, a PPL/FI and a Class 2 they don't suddenly become unsafe simply because the instructor or the aircraft are being paid for.
CAA discovered that aircraft that had been released to service when not in compliance with their C of A (unauthorised mods, AD's not done etc). Instead of investigating why the engineers they licence were doing this they invented the Star Annual where the aircraft has to be taken to an M3 organisation every 3 years so someone else could check it over.
Any decent Quality System investigates and fixes the cause of the problems to prevent them recurring. It does not simply ignore the causes and treat the symptoms. (I speak as someone who runs an ISO 9000 registered company)
These are two examples of unnecessary costs that could be reduced without compromising safety simply by using a better approach.
(Lest I stand accused of slagging off engineers, I am willing to bet that the signing off happened because the information they needed to determine airworthiness was not readily available to them in a concise and easily assimilated form)
Mike
If I want to fly for my own pleasure that's a Private Flight yes? Not if I hire the aircraft or pay for an instructor to accompany me it's not. Do either of those and you require a Transport category C of A and the instructor needs a CPL and a Class 1.
Take driving lessons and you don't find the car having to be maintained differently or the instructor having to have a pUblic Service Vehicle licence and medical.
If the aircraft and instructor are safe with a Private Cat, a PPL/FI and a Class 2 they don't suddenly become unsafe simply because the instructor or the aircraft are being paid for.
CAA discovered that aircraft that had been released to service when not in compliance with their C of A (unauthorised mods, AD's not done etc). Instead of investigating why the engineers they licence were doing this they invented the Star Annual where the aircraft has to be taken to an M3 organisation every 3 years so someone else could check it over.
Any decent Quality System investigates and fixes the cause of the problems to prevent them recurring. It does not simply ignore the causes and treat the symptoms. (I speak as someone who runs an ISO 9000 registered company)
These are two examples of unnecessary costs that could be reduced without compromising safety simply by using a better approach.
(Lest I stand accused of slagging off engineers, I am willing to bet that the signing off happened because the information they needed to determine airworthiness was not readily available to them in a concise and easily assimilated form)
Mike
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If I want to fly for my own pleasure that's a Private Flight yes? Not if I hire the aircraft or pay for an instructor to accompany me it's not. Do either of those and you require a Transport category C of A and the instructor needs a CPL and a Class 1.
Take driving lessons and you don't find the car having to be maintained differently or the instructor having to have a pUblic Service Vehicle licence and medical.
Take driving lessons and you don't find the car having to be maintained differently or the instructor having to have a pUblic Service Vehicle licence and medical.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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If I want to pop out with the kids for Sunday lunch I can go to The Propellor at Bembridge, AV8 at Kemble, the greasy spoon at Duxford, the clubhouse at Sherburn and so on.
I will compare quality with price and choose one.
If I look at Kemble and think "nice runway (but I don't need such a long one) good food but £33 landing fee puts me off...nah, I'll go to Bembridge" what do you want me to do? Just vote with my feet and stop going, or call them and discuss their fees?
I did the latter and they were genuinely interested to hear from me. They are experimenting with higher fees.
No doubt, like every other business, they need to maximise profit, and, as their overheads are so high and not very changeable they need to find the fee that is at the top of the elasticity curve.
If they do not get the feedback they could simply end up villified like Wolverhampton. Surely it is better to provide the feedback in a mutually supportive way?
If that's what you call whingeing, fine, that's up to you.
But one person's whingeing is another's expression of consumer will. You may think it's British to whinge, but maybe it's also British to just shuffle your feet slightly and not want to make a fuss and just, well, you know, just let's go somewhere else and hope nobody minds eh?
Timothy
I will compare quality with price and choose one.
If I look at Kemble and think "nice runway (but I don't need such a long one) good food but £33 landing fee puts me off...nah, I'll go to Bembridge" what do you want me to do? Just vote with my feet and stop going, or call them and discuss their fees?
I did the latter and they were genuinely interested to hear from me. They are experimenting with higher fees.
No doubt, like every other business, they need to maximise profit, and, as their overheads are so high and not very changeable they need to find the fee that is at the top of the elasticity curve.
If they do not get the feedback they could simply end up villified like Wolverhampton. Surely it is better to provide the feedback in a mutually supportive way?
If that's what you call whingeing, fine, that's up to you.
But one person's whingeing is another's expression of consumer will. You may think it's British to whinge, but maybe it's also British to just shuffle your feet slightly and not want to make a fuss and just, well, you know, just let's go somewhere else and hope nobody minds eh?
Timothy
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I have tried to talk to some of the more expensive airfields in the UK about fees but I often find the same attitude, "if you dont like it f... off"
I landed in Lydd a couple of years ago to pick up a mate, I bought 250 Ltrs fuel and still got charged £28 for landing a Mooney. When I complained I was more or less told not to bother comming back. I havent!
I work a lot in France, better welcome, better FBO type facilities & cheaper landings. And they are run by the FRENCH???
JB
I landed in Lydd a couple of years ago to pick up a mate, I bought 250 Ltrs fuel and still got charged £28 for landing a Mooney. When I complained I was more or less told not to bother comming back. I havent!
I work a lot in France, better welcome, better FBO type facilities & cheaper landings. And they are run by the FRENCH???
JB
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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I have tried to talk to some of the more expensive airfields in the UK about fees but I often find the same attitude, "if you dont like it f... off"
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well we could all keep quiet and accept the ever increasing prices.....or, like the Americans who whinge everytime their petrol prices go up (and then they drop again) we could make the point that we think we're being ripped off.
Trouble is in the UK we EXPECT to be ripped off, and we are, and we accept it quietly, except for on Pprune. I know a bloke in the states who had his annual done, he went along and spent the day helping the mechanics do it. His bill was about $900......A far price in my opinion. No chance of that happening over here.
EA
Trouble is in the UK we EXPECT to be ripped off, and we are, and we accept it quietly, except for on Pprune. I know a bloke in the states who had his annual done, he went along and spent the day helping the mechanics do it. His bill was about $900......A far price in my opinion. No chance of that happening over here.
EA
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I'm not sure if GA is full of whingers, I am quite sure that these fora seem to attract more whinging posts than laudatory ones.
How about a fly in for non-whinging ppruners who also enjoy some sport with a shotgun? Berettas and Brownings as welcome as English sidelocks.
Stik
How about a fly in for non-whinging ppruners who also enjoy some sport with a shotgun? Berettas and Brownings as welcome as English sidelocks.
Stik
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Englishal
It is not often on these pages that I read such utter uninformed rubbish .
$900 for an annual check ! ! !.
Thats £500 at the current rate and if the check only took a day then the labor rate was £ 62.50 / hour................just under double the UK labor rate.
I am quite happy to let owners help with the maintenance of there aircraft but it more often that not ends up with them mashing a few screw heads and the drilling and E-Zout of the screws means that it would have been quicker to do the job myself.
Now please tell me how an annual check was performed in a day ?.
It takes about 6 man hours to do a 50 hours to do without snaggs , so who can do an annual in a day ?.
If you can find this man will you please put him in contact with me as I can see my labor costs plummiting however I expect he is enhabiting the same fantasy world as you are if you think that this is a realistic price for all the work that is required to keep an aircraft airworthy.
I am sorry if my comments are a bit harsh for this forum but the aircraft mainenance in the UK is by and large very good value for money with the staff on the hangar floor paid about £10-12/hour
and the margins very tight for the engineering companys so I feel that the post that Englishal has made should be seen for what it is so that people new to aviation dont get the wrong idea about the true cost of proper maintenance.
$900 for an annual check ! ! !.
Thats £500 at the current rate and if the check only took a day then the labor rate was £ 62.50 / hour................just under double the UK labor rate.
I am quite happy to let owners help with the maintenance of there aircraft but it more often that not ends up with them mashing a few screw heads and the drilling and E-Zout of the screws means that it would have been quicker to do the job myself.
Now please tell me how an annual check was performed in a day ?.
It takes about 6 man hours to do a 50 hours to do without snaggs , so who can do an annual in a day ?.
If you can find this man will you please put him in contact with me as I can see my labor costs plummiting however I expect he is enhabiting the same fantasy world as you are if you think that this is a realistic price for all the work that is required to keep an aircraft airworthy.
I am sorry if my comments are a bit harsh for this forum but the aircraft mainenance in the UK is by and large very good value for money with the staff on the hangar floor paid about £10-12/hour
and the margins very tight for the engineering companys so I feel that the post that Englishal has made should be seen for what it is so that people new to aviation dont get the wrong idea about the true cost of proper maintenance.
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A slight aside, but over the last few years My PFA strut has held an annual fly in. We used to give a free burger to people who flew in and then charged a nominal sum for any subsequent drinks or burgers. Result lots of Burgers left over and a large loss. So we gave up flogging the burgers and gave them away free, but put an honesty box up. Result embarrassingly large profit. After covering the cost of the buns we donated the rest to the local hospice. So everybody happy and a good turn done as well.
Strange thing perceived value!
Strange thing perceived value!
Used to be a member of a flying group that had it's own airfield. We charged a not very large landing fee, sold some fuel and made peanuts. Then our finance chap had a brainwave. Scrap landing fees, reduce the price of the fuel and serve Rombouts coffee. Everyone said 'won't work'. Result - profits quadrupled!
Mid you, you should have seen what we charged for the coffee
Mid you, you should have seen what we charged for the coffee
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It is not often on these pages that I read such utter uninformed rubbish
See this is the difference between the USA and the UK, in the USA GA doesn't have to be expensive, in the UK it seems that it does or people doen't believe it. You don't have to be JAR approved to be able to do up nuts, screws or even, god forbid use an EZ out....... Its not rocket science, though I'm sure JAR would have you believe it is. So long as your work is supervised by an FAA mech and they're happy to sign it off then why can't an owner help with their own annual? This wouldn't happen under JAR though, as jobs for the boys and all that.
Interestingly many mechanical failures or incidents tend to happen after an aircraft has come out from maintenance, so I think I'd rather do my own annual, or at least supervise the mechanic.
Same with boats, buy "Marine" Epoxy at £35 per tin, or car body filler for £15 per tin, same ****. Buy a boat in America for £10,000 and the same thing here costs £20,000, and there is only 3% import tax...so who gets the rest of the money?
We're used to being ripped off in the UK and accept it.....
EA
Not so N, but still FG
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UK vs US comparisons need to be treated with some care. Nothing has an inherent price. The UK is small and densely populated, and properties in which to live or conduct businesses are expensive. Social costs are higher than in the US. These factors affect prices, but don't stop the relentless consumer pressure to have cheap everything, regardless of the implications for the environment, developing world working conditions etc. In the UK, goods of all kinds are currently tending to get cheaper, whilst services are tending to get more expensive.
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I would agree that in general there seems to be more whinging in GA but it may be that it is just directed differently. Go to the States and they whinge about the Feds for all sorts of reasons, particularly now with increased security and closure of airspace just 'cos GW wants to go visit someone.
To add my 2 penneth, why do hundreds of US and Continental airfields survive with very small or in most cases in the States, no landing fees ? I have done quite a bit of GA flying over there and it amazes me to see these Mom & Pop airfields ticking over nicely, no landing fees, little diner, maintenance shop and a few aeroplanes tied down. Yet we go to some airfields in the UK, they snarl as you land, snatch a landing fee off you, won't discount it if you fuel or buy food and then snarl as you leave.
I think there is scope for a lot of airfields to look inwards, re evaluate what they provide and try be more customer service focussed - then trade increases, then they get busy.
To add my 2 penneth, why do hundreds of US and Continental airfields survive with very small or in most cases in the States, no landing fees ? I have done quite a bit of GA flying over there and it amazes me to see these Mom & Pop airfields ticking over nicely, no landing fees, little diner, maintenance shop and a few aeroplanes tied down. Yet we go to some airfields in the UK, they snarl as you land, snatch a landing fee off you, won't discount it if you fuel or buy food and then snarl as you leave.
I think there is scope for a lot of airfields to look inwards, re evaluate what they provide and try be more customer service focussed - then trade increases, then they get busy.
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To add my 2 penneth, why do hundreds of US and Continental airfields survive with very small or in most cases in the States, no landing fees ? I have done quite a bit of GA flying over there and it amazes me to see these Mom & Pop airfields ticking over nicely, no landing fees, little diner, maintenance shop and a few aeroplanes tied down.
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englishal
Certainly somebody makes a lot of margin on the USA -> UK import of a lot of stuff, but it isn't (usually) the local maintenance shop. It is the importer, usually a sole agent, who brings the stuff in that makes the 1.5x markup.
If you have an N-reg plane, or to a lesser degree G-reg Private CofA one, you can buy parts mail order from the USA, and they are exactly the same parts which are 2x the price here and they come with the same original manufacturer's CofC. I pay 50% extra for fine-wire spark plugs, about £200 extra in all, as a result of having a G-reg on a Transport CofA. The CAA requirement for JAR145 documents on major items and 8130-3 on just about everything else, and training planes being on a Transport CofA, keeps this tight supply chain (a "cartel" in any other language) in business. The official UK importer is a JAR145 company, of course. This is just the tip of the rip-off iceberg.
A lot of the extra cost is unavoidable; e.g. 1 packet of 10 gaskets costing £50 gets shipped over by UPS who charge £50 for the carriage. That's a 2x price increase right away.
One cannot usefully compare UK rental pricing with USA pricing however. In this business, it depends so much on volume and in the UK the same volume just isn't there. Land costs are usually far lower there, there's a lot less pressure from NIMBYs and from property developers.
A lot of stuff in GA is grossly overpriced anyway; avionics is a prime example and that one is a result of most of it being made in small quantities by large firms with large fixed costs. They blame it on certification costs but that's bunk. But due to the age of the UK fleet, the market for avionics here is very small indeed which makes the situation even worse...
Certainly somebody makes a lot of margin on the USA -> UK import of a lot of stuff, but it isn't (usually) the local maintenance shop. It is the importer, usually a sole agent, who brings the stuff in that makes the 1.5x markup.
If you have an N-reg plane, or to a lesser degree G-reg Private CofA one, you can buy parts mail order from the USA, and they are exactly the same parts which are 2x the price here and they come with the same original manufacturer's CofC. I pay 50% extra for fine-wire spark plugs, about £200 extra in all, as a result of having a G-reg on a Transport CofA. The CAA requirement for JAR145 documents on major items and 8130-3 on just about everything else, and training planes being on a Transport CofA, keeps this tight supply chain (a "cartel" in any other language) in business. The official UK importer is a JAR145 company, of course. This is just the tip of the rip-off iceberg.
A lot of the extra cost is unavoidable; e.g. 1 packet of 10 gaskets costing £50 gets shipped over by UPS who charge £50 for the carriage. That's a 2x price increase right away.
One cannot usefully compare UK rental pricing with USA pricing however. In this business, it depends so much on volume and in the UK the same volume just isn't there. Land costs are usually far lower there, there's a lot less pressure from NIMBYs and from property developers.
A lot of stuff in GA is grossly overpriced anyway; avionics is a prime example and that one is a result of most of it being made in small quantities by large firms with large fixed costs. They blame it on certification costs but that's bunk. But due to the age of the UK fleet, the market for avionics here is very small indeed which makes the situation even worse...
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Paying for the flying that you dont do !
Another major factor is the weather , last month my aircraft did about 10% of the work that was booked !.
The fixed costs are the same if I fly one hour a month or one hundred with Florida Weather and USA fuel prices I could get quite close to the price per hour in the USA despite the extra cost of parts and the JAA .
As for the owner not helping with the maintenance , under JAA there is nothing to stop this happening except the attitude of the owners , most would not be seen dead working in the hangar after all if they did some of the maintenance it would give them one less thing to whinge about !.
The fixed costs are the same if I fly one hour a month or one hundred with Florida Weather and USA fuel prices I could get quite close to the price per hour in the USA despite the extra cost of parts and the JAA .
As for the owner not helping with the maintenance , under JAA there is nothing to stop this happening except the attitude of the owners , most would not be seen dead working in the hangar after all if they did some of the maintenance it would give them one less thing to whinge about !.
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Landing fees in the US are usually very low or non existent because the funding works completely different.
A lot of airfields are heavily subsidised by the FAA and the owner (usually the local 'council') has to provide the services the FAA pays for.
If they for instance try to reduce movements or opening times they get the hot breath of the feds in their respective necks.
So aviation gets money out of general taxation.
FD
A lot of airfields are heavily subsidised by the FAA and the owner (usually the local 'council') has to provide the services the FAA pays for.
If they for instance try to reduce movements or opening times they get the hot breath of the feds in their respective necks.
So aviation gets money out of general taxation.
FD