Real Pilots?????
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: UK
IMHO a real pilot has a realistic view of their abilities, a full understanding of the environment they are flying in and always follows the 6 Ps. You can be a real pilot with only 10 hours P1, you could be an unreal pilot at 6000 hours. It all depends on your attitude and your humility. At the school I used to work at every PPL Self fly hirer had to do a 6 month check ride. Most appreciated the opportunity to practice emergencies and brush up on lost skills. They were better pilots for it too.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
I don't think the quality of pilot has anything to do with their age. I also don't think that it has much to do with whether they learned to fly two years ago or twenty years ago. In my opinion, it's all down to the quality of the initial instruction they were given.
If you are taught well in the early days, you will learn good flying discipline and continue to use the right techniques throughout your PPL and beyond. If you are taught bady, perhaps by in inexperienced hours-building instructor, you will pick up bad habits, which will exacerbate with time unless they are stamped out.
The type of flying club also has a lot to do with how your skills mature as you gain more experience post-PPL. As others have already said, commercial flying schools ofter don't want to know students any more after they have passed their PPL, unless they are forking out more cash to pay for advanced training, such as night or IMC. This means that you are out on your own, and unable to benefit from the experience of other seasoned aviators around you. A proper members' club will always be a welcoming place that attracts high-hours private, commercial and ex-military pilots.
As for the cost of keeping current, a non-commercial club will tend to have cheaper flying rates, because it's not trying to cream off a profit. If you're paying more than £80 an hour for a Cessna 150 or PA28, you're probably in the wrong club.
If you are taught well in the early days, you will learn good flying discipline and continue to use the right techniques throughout your PPL and beyond. If you are taught bady, perhaps by in inexperienced hours-building instructor, you will pick up bad habits, which will exacerbate with time unless they are stamped out.
The type of flying club also has a lot to do with how your skills mature as you gain more experience post-PPL. As others have already said, commercial flying schools ofter don't want to know students any more after they have passed their PPL, unless they are forking out more cash to pay for advanced training, such as night or IMC. This means that you are out on your own, and unable to benefit from the experience of other seasoned aviators around you. A proper members' club will always be a welcoming place that attracts high-hours private, commercial and ex-military pilots.
As for the cost of keeping current, a non-commercial club will tend to have cheaper flying rates, because it's not trying to cream off a profit. If you're paying more than £80 an hour for a Cessna 150 or PA28, you're probably in the wrong club.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
This means that you are out on your own, and unable to benefit from the experience of other seasoned aviators around you.
I think whats lacking is a bit of lateral thinking. So your club doesn't want to know, go somewhere else, go on a flying holiday, fly with some mates.
You read Wanabees and I'm amazed at how many people are willing to chuck £60,000 into the pot to become a "professional pilot" without even exploring the alternatives, or even doing a bit of Private flying first to see if they really want to be a pilot, or becasue it just sounds good at the time? Maybe its always been like this, its just we get to see it now with the advent of cyberspace.
Old pilots are not nescessarily better than new pilots, its always the same "when I was a lad we used to blah blah blah"....GA is changing, for the better, with the advent of modern technology, and no doubt many of the old timers wont be able to keep up.
I would agree that O-levels and A levels have got easier. My Mrs is a teacher now, teaching A level physics,amongst other things (the same course I did about 19 years ago, at the same place...scary). Some (most) of the students are thick as pig !!!! and can't even write or spell clearly. Ask them how to scale a graph properly and they reach mental breakdown.....poor wee darlings
See now you've got me started, when I was a lad........
EA
Oh you tosser....I just noticed the date of the post. It is a wind up isn't it? Sorry, bit slow off the mark
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 20
From: I have no idea but the view's great.
Even though this thread started as a wind-up, it has generated some interesting debate.
So, here's my tuppence worth. I couldn't disagree with Sassenach more.
RUBBISH
MORE RUBBISH
There is, in my opinion, only one thing that makes you a good pilot and that is you. Your attitude and, to a certain degree, your personality. I know people with 5000 hours who scare me fartless every time and people with 50 hours who are a joy to fly with.
Was it their initial training? Was it b**gery.
Is it the club they fly at? Like f**k it is.
It's them and their approach to flying; the fact that they are willing to learn and to accept guidance from whoever offers it; the fact that they realise that they'll never know everything and that there is always more to learn; the fact that they have pride in their flying and airmanship; the fact that they want to be the best pilot that they can be.
There are a hundred ways to stay current and for half the price of hiring spamcans you can do it on a PFA type; you can run a microlight for less than that; you can glide for a fraction of the cost of a microlight; there's always a way, perhaps not the ideal that you'd choose, but there is always a way.
So, if you're not as good as you could be, it's not the fault of the guy who taught you, it's not the fault of your club, it's not down to the fact that you're strapped for cash, it's your own bloody fault.
So, here's my tuppence worth. I couldn't disagree with Sassenach more.
If you are taught well in the early days, you will learn good flying discipline and continue to use the right techniques throughout your PPL and beyond.
The type of flying club also has a lot to do with how your skills mature as you gain more experience post-PPL.
There is, in my opinion, only one thing that makes you a good pilot and that is you. Your attitude and, to a certain degree, your personality. I know people with 5000 hours who scare me fartless every time and people with 50 hours who are a joy to fly with.
Was it their initial training? Was it b**gery.
Is it the club they fly at? Like f**k it is.
It's them and their approach to flying; the fact that they are willing to learn and to accept guidance from whoever offers it; the fact that they realise that they'll never know everything and that there is always more to learn; the fact that they have pride in their flying and airmanship; the fact that they want to be the best pilot that they can be.
There are a hundred ways to stay current and for half the price of hiring spamcans you can do it on a PFA type; you can run a microlight for less than that; you can glide for a fraction of the cost of a microlight; there's always a way, perhaps not the ideal that you'd choose, but there is always a way.
So, if you're not as good as you could be, it's not the fault of the guy who taught you, it's not the fault of your club, it's not down to the fact that you're strapped for cash, it's your own bloody fault.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,540
Likes: 3
From: UK
As a non flyer reading though this post I belive that there is an interesting split based on those who use the phrase 'Flying School' and those who use 'Flying Club'.
The 'Schoolies' seem less satisfied with life than the 'Clubbers' and perhaps this is because a club is generally more vibrant and a place to go to chat and relax, whereas a school is for the achieving of an exam only.
So the choice is out there for you.
The 'Schoolies' seem less satisfied with life than the 'Clubbers' and perhaps this is because a club is generally more vibrant and a place to go to chat and relax, whereas a school is for the achieving of an exam only.
So the choice is out there for you.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: the wild blue
JAFO !, ..... you got it !
Flying does come down to currency and attitude. If you don't fly for abit it costs nothing to mentally fly, revise, talk to your fellow pilots, bludge the odd ride, read anything saftey wise you can find, most flying schools/aero clubs now hold regular saftey seminars etc.
In the 10 years I spent Instructing the 2 worst type of pilot in every aspect where
1. Those who told anyone that would listen all the time what a bad Instructor they had.
2. Those Private Owners (not all) who knew all there was to know and by God there was nothing a young Instructor could ever teach them.
Flying does come down to currency and attitude. If you don't fly for abit it costs nothing to mentally fly, revise, talk to your fellow pilots, bludge the odd ride, read anything saftey wise you can find, most flying schools/aero clubs now hold regular saftey seminars etc.
In the 10 years I spent Instructing the 2 worst type of pilot in every aspect where
1. Those who told anyone that would listen all the time what a bad Instructor they had.
2. Those Private Owners (not all) who knew all there was to know and by God there was nothing a young Instructor could ever teach them.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
I think it all comes down to money, but not profit necessarily.
Flying has become so expensive that instructors are under pressure to get students through in the absolute minimum of hours, and then PPLs are often flying far less hours than would allow them to become genuinely experienced and current.
Has flying become more expensive? I did my PPL in 1978/79 at a total cost of about £1,100, including 45 hours in C150s, all groundschool, and books (Flight Briefing for Pilots!). To do it today would cost, maybe £6,000. That's probably cheaper in real terms.
SSD
Flying has become so expensive that instructors are under pressure to get students through in the absolute minimum of hours, and then PPLs are often flying far less hours than would allow them to become genuinely experienced and current.
Has flying become more expensive? I did my PPL in 1978/79 at a total cost of about £1,100, including 45 hours in C150s, all groundschool, and books (Flight Briefing for Pilots!). To do it today would cost, maybe £6,000. That's probably cheaper in real terms.
SSD
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well SSD, if you take the standard rule of thumb that costs double every ten years then flying has become more expensive.
1979 money = 1100
1989 money = 2200
1999 money = 4400
I paid about £8000 for my PPL (done in a cessna 172 as I cannot fit in anything smaller)
As for training, its not just the instructor. There is a lot of study yourself to do and understand.
Kelvin
1979 money = 1100
1989 money = 2200
1999 money = 4400
I paid about £8000 for my PPL (done in a cessna 172 as I cannot fit in anything smaller)
As for training, its not just the instructor. There is a lot of study yourself to do and understand.
Kelvin
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 10
From: Just South of the last ice sheet
and extrapolating that to 2004 gives us 6600 squids........
As with any other sphere of life, you have to have the attitude that is appropriate to the task in hand. Lack of currency obviously has a large impact on how efficiently a task is carried out but there should still be an underlying level of ability which will allow you to practise basic VFR flying and work your way back into proficiency.
As with any other sphere of life, you have to have the attitude that is appropriate to the task in hand. Lack of currency obviously has a large impact on how efficiently a task is carried out but there should still be an underlying level of ability which will allow you to practise basic VFR flying and work your way back into proficiency.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
From: Enniskillen
I would say that flying is cheaper now that 30 years ago.
I still beleive that we produced better handling pilots 30 years ago. I accept that trainning in some areas have changed but as someone already said, the controls still do the same job.
A local school here with a fleet of new C172s have had about 5 or 6 landing accidents in the last few years. I would not like their insurance bill after bending so many new a/c. I wonder are pilots paying too much attention to the toys in the new aircraft and not learning to flying the darn thing.
How many pilots are made to fly a few circuts without any instruments these days, I mean No airspeed, altimeter, RPM etc, just look out the window.
At my local airport the instructors wont fly if the wind is over 15 knots, even with advanced students. A new PPL will panic some day when the controler gives them wind of 18 - 20 knots, he or she will worry if the aircraft will fly in these conditions.
I agree that the pilot attitude has as much to do with learning to fly as the instruction.
I would suggest that all instructors should have 1000 hours PIC with at least 500 hours long cross country flights before being accepted for the instructor course. then we will produce more REAL PILOTS.
TR
I still beleive that we produced better handling pilots 30 years ago. I accept that trainning in some areas have changed but as someone already said, the controls still do the same job.
A local school here with a fleet of new C172s have had about 5 or 6 landing accidents in the last few years. I would not like their insurance bill after bending so many new a/c. I wonder are pilots paying too much attention to the toys in the new aircraft and not learning to flying the darn thing.
How many pilots are made to fly a few circuts without any instruments these days, I mean No airspeed, altimeter, RPM etc, just look out the window.
At my local airport the instructors wont fly if the wind is over 15 knots, even with advanced students. A new PPL will panic some day when the controler gives them wind of 18 - 20 knots, he or she will worry if the aircraft will fly in these conditions.
I agree that the pilot attitude has as much to do with learning to fly as the instruction.
I would suggest that all instructors should have 1000 hours PIC with at least 500 hours long cross country flights before being accepted for the instructor course. then we will produce more REAL PILOTS.
TR
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 0
From: South Norfolk, England
I don't think flying is much more expensive in relative terms these days. There are also more cheaper routes than there used to be with things such as microlighting and NPPL for a start.
I can't really comment about the "quality" of recent PPL's, as other than observing a few of their landings ect I don't come into much contact with them in any quantifiable way. Who does other than, say instructors or ATCO's? What I have seen doesn't fill me with any great horror, at least no more than it ever has done. OK, there's the odd crap landing, the ever widening circuits and maybe bad radio; but then, who's not guilty of these things on occasion? (esp the last one in my case).
Certainly 20 years ago there were very few places you could learn to fly taildraggers, or get proper instruction in microlights ect. Virtually all clubs had turned their backs on the Condors, Austers, Chipmunks or even the wider variety of trikes such as Bolkow Juniors, Robins ect of the 60's and 70's. Everywhere you went it was wall to wall Cessnas and Pipers. At least now ... you have a choice and IMHO training on a taildragger does "help" toward better better flying skill so on that score it could be said the potential is for better now.
On the other hand ...
Reliance on GPS "may" have detracted from good navigational skill because once a PPL has been passed they invariably switch to that form of navigation. Funny thing though? despite GPS there do seem to be lots of infringements these days? ... as there always have been. It doesn't wash that they are all by us older generation of PPL's not being able to keep up with technology and as the numbers haven't reduced, I'd conclude that GPS hasn't made for better navigators! Also PFL's and a few other things aren't practiced with enough realism now ... but that is more the fault of an over eager CAA to prosecute for low flying. Here on the farm I'm near Goodwood and often observe PFL training where an approach is made only down to 500' into a field I KNOW would result in a broken aeroplane! I well remember doing PFL's right down to virtually the flare.
Conclusion.
I don't think there is a huge difference in the "quality" of PPL's emerging now. Potentially PPL's could be far better now than they used to be ... but they're not. Overall I reckon they are pretty equal but have a lot more pressure applied than we used to. There have always been good and bad instructors, good and bad schools and good and bad PPL's ... what's new?
SS
I can't really comment about the "quality" of recent PPL's, as other than observing a few of their landings ect I don't come into much contact with them in any quantifiable way. Who does other than, say instructors or ATCO's? What I have seen doesn't fill me with any great horror, at least no more than it ever has done. OK, there's the odd crap landing, the ever widening circuits and maybe bad radio; but then, who's not guilty of these things on occasion? (esp the last one in my case).
Certainly 20 years ago there were very few places you could learn to fly taildraggers, or get proper instruction in microlights ect. Virtually all clubs had turned their backs on the Condors, Austers, Chipmunks or even the wider variety of trikes such as Bolkow Juniors, Robins ect of the 60's and 70's. Everywhere you went it was wall to wall Cessnas and Pipers. At least now ... you have a choice and IMHO training on a taildragger does "help" toward better better flying skill so on that score it could be said the potential is for better now.
On the other hand ...
Reliance on GPS "may" have detracted from good navigational skill because once a PPL has been passed they invariably switch to that form of navigation. Funny thing though? despite GPS there do seem to be lots of infringements these days? ... as there always have been. It doesn't wash that they are all by us older generation of PPL's not being able to keep up with technology and as the numbers haven't reduced, I'd conclude that GPS hasn't made for better navigators! Also PFL's and a few other things aren't practiced with enough realism now ... but that is more the fault of an over eager CAA to prosecute for low flying. Here on the farm I'm near Goodwood and often observe PFL training where an approach is made only down to 500' into a field I KNOW would result in a broken aeroplane! I well remember doing PFL's right down to virtually the flare.
Conclusion.
I don't think there is a huge difference in the "quality" of PPL's emerging now. Potentially PPL's could be far better now than they used to be ... but they're not. Overall I reckon they are pretty equal but have a lot more pressure applied than we used to. There have always been good and bad instructors, good and bad schools and good and bad PPL's ... what's new?
SS
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Allowing for the high inflation in the 1970s and 1980s I bet the PPL is no more expensive now than then.
But I equally bet that there has been one big change: of the people who can trully afford it, and afford to fly afterwards, a lot fewer are getting into flying today.
But I equally bet that there has been one big change: of the people who can trully afford it, and afford to fly afterwards, a lot fewer are getting into flying today.
Joined: Jan 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
From: here
I would suggest that all instructors should have 1000 hours PIC with at least 500 hours long cross country flights before being accepted for the instructor course. then we will produce more REAL PILOTS.
?????????????? How many flying school would there be if this was the case, and how much would the cost of training be? It would certainly make flying much more elitest don't you think.
Although microlights would certainly be bigger than they are currently.
Lets be realistic shall we. What is truly wrong with a CPL, FI with 250hours plus? Are they that bad? I was one once, and I don't produce fake pilots. They're all REEAL TO ME!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: The top of the tower
Who the hell can afford to do 1000 hours before forking out for an Instructors rating and CPL???????? Probably not many!!!!
To fund that you would need another job to pay for it and how many years (or even decades!) would that take?!?!
A somewhat farcical and unrealistic theory IMHO!
To fund that you would need another job to pay for it and how many years (or even decades!) would that take?!?!
A somewhat farcical and unrealistic theory IMHO!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
From: UK
This an interesting one. I'm in my late fifities and learned to fly only four years ago. My age makes me conscious of my limitations unlike a 21 year old!
The first thing I did after getting a PPL was to get an IMC and I use navaids and GPS for most flying and work hard on RT quality.
I am lucky to have flown with some very experienced IR pilots before I learned and gained from their knowledge of procedures and RT.
I think it's this last area that may be the issue. When I got my PPL I was a basically competent handling pilot in reasonable weather and could just about map read reliably, but if it wasn't for my friends I would have been a total tyro on Navaids and RT. Their example helped with IMC training and that in turn consolidated all three skills because my precision in handling improved greatly, and my Navaid usage and RT became almost professional!
The first thing I did after getting a PPL was to get an IMC and I use navaids and GPS for most flying and work hard on RT quality.
I am lucky to have flown with some very experienced IR pilots before I learned and gained from their knowledge of procedures and RT.
I think it's this last area that may be the issue. When I got my PPL I was a basically competent handling pilot in reasonable weather and could just about map read reliably, but if it wasn't for my friends I would have been a total tyro on Navaids and RT. Their example helped with IMC training and that in turn consolidated all three skills because my precision in handling improved greatly, and my Navaid usage and RT became almost professional!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: N E England
I would agree with TonyR, What the hell does a 200 hour instructor know?? He is still in "the killing Zone" himself. Would you let your son or daughter fly with one??
I would suggest they serve an apprenticeship with "real instructors" not rush to get the restriction lifted by borrowing "solos" from each other etc.
I am sorry but I would drag you all back to the old fella in a woolly jumper who doesn't own a new shiney black leather flight case but can teach the basics properly.
So f...ing what if there are less Schools and FIs this may provide them with more business and produce more "real pilots"
And flying is a elite sport it was 33 years ago when I started and ask your non flying friends they will tell you it still is.
JB
I would suggest they serve an apprenticeship with "real instructors" not rush to get the restriction lifted by borrowing "solos" from each other etc.
I am sorry but I would drag you all back to the old fella in a woolly jumper who doesn't own a new shiney black leather flight case but can teach the basics properly.
So f...ing what if there are less Schools and FIs this may provide them with more business and produce more "real pilots"
And flying is a elite sport it was 33 years ago when I started and ask your non flying friends they will tell you it still is.
JB
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
From: Enniskillen
VCR
Listen to yourself.
Quote
"Who the hell can afford to do 1000 hours before forking out for an Instructors rating and CPL???????? Probably not many!!!!"
Why should an instructor become and instructor?? If it is to build hours for his future job with an airline then he is a fruad and is not a "real instructor" and I would suggest that some do not give a damm about the sort of pilots they produce.
There will always be flying schools who will want young instructors to work for nothing so they pay peanuts and get monkeys. If instructing was a real job with a real salary then we would have real instructors and produce real pilots. There may be less schools but hopefully better ones.
Many flying clubs could encourage more retired ex comercial pilots to become instructors and work for a few pounds per hour this would help keep the cost down at the club trainning end.
TR
Listen to yourself.
Quote
"Who the hell can afford to do 1000 hours before forking out for an Instructors rating and CPL???????? Probably not many!!!!"
Why should an instructor become and instructor?? If it is to build hours for his future job with an airline then he is a fruad and is not a "real instructor" and I would suggest that some do not give a damm about the sort of pilots they produce.
There will always be flying schools who will want young instructors to work for nothing so they pay peanuts and get monkeys. If instructing was a real job with a real salary then we would have real instructors and produce real pilots. There may be less schools but hopefully better ones.
Many flying clubs could encourage more retired ex comercial pilots to become instructors and work for a few pounds per hour this would help keep the cost down at the club trainning end.
TR
Joined: Apr 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 680
Likes: 2
From: An Airport Near You
So TonyR...are you now saying that it is the employers not paying enough that makes bad PPL holders or the instructors they employ?
If they put the salaries up where does that money come from?........oh yeah! they'll increase the hourly rate!
Who can afford to fly then?....Rich people which then in turn means the only people who make good pilots are those with enough money to pay for it? Elite sport?.....RUBBISH!!!
What an absolute load of cr@p!
If they put the salaries up where does that money come from?........oh yeah! they'll increase the hourly rate!
Who can afford to fly then?....Rich people which then in turn means the only people who make good pilots are those with enough money to pay for it? Elite sport?.....RUBBISH!!!
What an absolute load of cr@p!