25 Stones and wanting a PPL

[darul]

This is not a wind up!!!!
facts
I am 25 stones
i want to learn to fly
I wish I was slim, but I can't do it! (losing weight)
I been big my whole life, i lived my whole life not doing stuff because I was fat, i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself if i can or can't lose weight. I hope you understand that.
and i know being fat is no good but i just can't change.

[MLS-12D]

darul,

If you really are as heavyset as you say, you may well have to resign yourself to the fact that, unfortunately, flying is one activity that you will be unable to do. For better or worse, the vast majority of aircraft are designed for people of much smaller and lighter build.

i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself ... i know being fat is no good but i just can't change

I don't want to be unkind, but you must understand that you can't expect everything to change to suit you. You're going to have to learn to make some compromises, just like I do with my myopia, others do with colour-blindness, etc.

Notwithstanding the above, by all means go ahead and visit a flying school for a demonstration flight .. you won't know until you've at least sat in one or two cockpits. If all of the schools that you approach refuse to let you take lessons, it might be an idea to accept this with good grace, since they are not only concerned with their aircraft, but with your personal safety.

Hopefully you can find someone who can accomodate you. If not, either look for another hobby, or talk with your physician about other weight-loss methods.

Good luck to you.

[J.A.F.O.]

I been big my whole life, i lived my whole life not doing stuff because I was fat, i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself if i can or can't lose weight. I hope you understand that.

Good for you, mate. Life's for living, not for calculating your BMI.

It may make it more difficult and limit your choices but if you want to do it then you'll do it.

Nothing to offer but encouragement.

(The rather lardy) JAFO (BMI unknown)

[darul]

thanks for you support J.A.F.O

[andrewc]

Darul,

Find a school that will teach you in either a 172 or a PA-28 (160+),
unless you have a large instructor you will have little problem
with W&B - and if you do simply fly with fuel to tabs rather than
full tanks.

Forget about microlites and 2-seater trainer style aircraft
but go ahead and enjoy yourself.

This thread shows quite interestingly what a pack of tossers
some of our web contributors are.

-- Andrew

[Mr Wolfie]

andrewc wrote -

This thread shows quite interestingly what a pack of tossers some of our web contributors are.

On the contrary, out of the 45 replies so far, almost all have been sympathetic and helpful (even if the advice at times points to the harsh realities of the situation).

I am a big bloke myself at around 16 stones, and have to be careful doing the weight and balance calculations when carrying pax. With an extra 10 stones on top I don't think that the figures will work out for Darul. For example the W&B chart for the C172 that I often fly only goes up to 30 stones for the front seats (both seats). Darul on his own at 26 stones would almost make all this up. If an average sized instructor were to occupy the front right seat too I am not certain that there would be enough elevator authority to actually flare on landing. The only option to stay within W&B would be for either Darul or his instructor to get in the back!

Darul, losing weight isn't easy - I am trying to shed a couple of stones myself and failing miserably - but realistically you need to try and get yourself to at least sub-twenty stone.

Anyway, good luck & all the best.
Mr. W

[Whirlygig]

Losing weight

Darul,

The hardest thing I have ever done was to lose 5 stone. I went from a BMI of nearly 40 to now 27 - so I am just overweight rather than obese. Giving up smoking was easier

What I realized was that the medical profession (at least my GP) didn't know everything about weight loss/gain and his diet sheets (which I followed) made no difference. I tried a low-carb diet (against his advice) and lost the weight. Now I don't give a flying f*** about the pros and cons of Atkins and what it may or may not do in the long term, because being 5 stone lighter has certainly got to be better for me. I'm afraid that I do NOT believe that weight gain/loss is purely a matter of calories in/calories out. Different foodstuffs will be absorbed by the body at different rates and I am sure that different bodies have different "systems". Have you had your thyroid and/or adrenals checked?

Exercise made a big difference and I found that as I lost more, I could do more. I hated it, still do but it had to be my goal in life to get a PPL(H) so all my time was devoted to getting fit.

Darul, please try to get fit. There is no easy way and you will probably have to devote the best part of a year to losing weight but you would not believe how much better you will feel - not just physically but mentally since you have to use an incredible amount of will power to do it. you will also find that other people's reactions to you will change (can be amusing, can be annoying).

You CAN do it and changing your mindset will have to be the first step.

All the best

Whirlygig

[englishal]

On the subject of dieting.....

After 10 weeks in America, not much exercise, and Christmas and all that I had put on 8 kg....16.something lbs, too much beer, nacho's and burgers. Anyway, I started a "Cornflake" diet, youghurt for breakfast, bowl of cornflakes for lunch, and a normal dinner. I also started cycling again (tried it in California, but you're taking your life in your hands there ). The result is I've lost 8kg in 6 weeks, and its still going down. I reckon I want to loose another 10kgs before I stop, but the wierd thing is I'm used to it now, I actually enjoy it. If I feel hungry I have an apple and a cup of tea, and it works well. I haven't totally cut out booze either as I do enjoy a good pint of London Pride or Guiness, just not every night.

I used to be quite a lardy kid, then when I hit 20 I lost 4 stone in 4 months, due to cycling, and cutting the crap. It was great, the girls loved it...and so did I Still, when I hit 30 me and a bunch of mates went on a holiday to the states, and the weight started to come on. Soon after that I was working out in malaysia, where the food was excellent, then ironically I learned to fly, which meant 6 weeks in the states eating burgers and beer, then I got married. In order to stop myself becoming a lard arse again, I changed my lifestyle a little bit, started cycling again, eating less kebabs etc., and my weight stabilized. The big thing is really the exercise, as soon as I stop, the weight starts to come on, as soon as I start again, the weight stabilizes...Add a small diet to this, or rather cut out the crap, and the weight drops.

The best way in my opinion to loose weight, is eat sensibly, and get some exercise. I normally cycle 1hr 4-5 times a week, plus other activities like canoeing in the winter, wakeboarding in the warmer months. Feels like s*it when you start doing it from a period of inactivity, but it doesn't take long for the body to adjust, and you soon start enjoying it. Get an mp3 player, a decent bike, and just use it every day, even if you have to go out in the evenings with a mate (makes it easier if you have a mate to go with). I have a set route I do, which is about 17 miles out along country lanes, and takes in 2000' of vertical climbing total. I'd recommend you start out on the flat though, and gradually build up.....

Good luck, if you really want to get fit and loose a few pounds, you can do it.....

EA

[Brooklands]

Darul,

You should be OK in a four seater. I've had a look at my weight and balance charts for the club aircraft I fly (172P, 172R 172S, PA28-181 and 182-RG). In all cases you should be able to get in with an instructor (provided they're 12 - 13 st), but would be limited to about 2/3rds fuel to get within the weight and balance limits. The C of G will be pretty far forward, but within the envelope, and you could always put a few pounds of ballast at the back of the luggage compartment (which I think BEagle suggested).

When I was at the club the other week there was someone who was learning in a 172 as they were a bit too big for a 152.

Brooklands
(who wouldn't come to any harm if he lost a stone or two )

[mazzy1026]

I have nothing but good will for you mate and know you will do it.

I have been waiting for a thread like this for a long time. I am 6ft 2.5 and weigh around 17 stone. My BMI bounces between 29 and 31 (fluctuations in weight due to failed dieting).

I always wanted to know whether I would pass the class 1 nedical but couldnt seem to find out anywhere for definate.

I rang the CAA and spoke to a lady and she told me as long as I am not in the obese category (30) then I would be OK. However for the class 2 - all's you need is to look OK and not be physically challenged in any way.

If I wanted to learn in a Tomahwak I would need a small instructyor so I have just gone for the Warrior instead.

Dont listen to anyone who says you wont be able to do it - obviously there are safety factors involved, and even though this may limit certain areas, it certainly wont stop you !

My plan is to try and get down to 16 stone. It really does pi55 me off and I agree that the BMI is a waste of time - even if the statistics show that the higher the BMI, the more chance you have of heart disease etc - this is not a definative way to look at the situation and is only a broad view. I have a fair bit of muscle and am naturally well built - my ideal weight (according to the BMI) would be 14 stone and I am telling you now - if I was 14 stone - I would seriously start looking ill and would have to move around in the shower to get wet - I would be able to look through a keyhole with both eyes.

Seriously though, away from the jokes, follow englishal's advice and tell yourself you can do it - cos you can !

Best of luck and bonvoyage to the weight

[mad_jock]

I am sure all instructors have seen examiners lie about there weight so they can get full fuel.

I knew the examiner wanted full fuel. So got it refueled, student then asks how heavy the examiner is. I make a quick guess at 8Okg (more like 110kg) and off the student goes.

10 mins later student walks up to both of us and announces that the plane was over weight by 5kg. Examiner annouces its ok i have just been for a dump. Go and do the checks.

Another one is short ladys with large chests. Wondered what was consricting the controls in the flare. The giggle next to me made me look to see the poor girl hooked on the yoke by her bra on the stopwatch clip.

I don't think the BMI for class 1 is 30. There are many pilots out there which are over that (me for a start) I asked my AME about it and he said it was a factor in the whole equation. Because my heart rate is 65 and I have border line low blood pressure. The fact i am a fat bastard gets ignored, the other 2 indicators means i don't get moaned at for my weight. This doesn't transfer across to smoking i might add.

I am in at the AME on monday for a class 1 so will ask him then. It might get his attention away from giving me serious looks about smoking.

MJ

[Pronto]

The relevant section of the JAA medical FCL is at http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/435247.pdf . The bit that deals with BMI is para 3.179(e) on page 17 (of 46). The annex referred to in that paragraph is on page 40 (of 46).

In essence, people with a BMI of 35 or more (see caveat) may only be certified as fit if the excess weight is not likely to interfere with the safe exercise of the privileges of the licence. A satisfactory cardiovascular risk review must be undertaken. The caveat is that the JAA have not drawn the symbol particularly well and I may be misreading BMI of “over 35” for the (slightly) more restrictive “35 or more”.

The annex states that abnormal physique (including obesity) may require a flight test or a test in a simulator. Particular regard must be had to emergency procedures and evacuation.

I think it’s worth remembering that flying schools are businesses. If they turn a potential customer away, they must have good reasons for doing so. In this case it’ll be either because the aircraft which form their fleet are too small for Darul to get into, or they have safety issues.

I can think of two such issues, there may be more. Firstly, if a pilot can’t get out of an aircraft with ease, he or she puts himself and any passengers in the rear seats (who may need to use the pilots exit) at heightened risk. Even if the pilot (and passengers) is prepared to accept the risk, any incident on an aerodrome will necessitate the attendance of the RFFS who will be put at greater risk in trying to save a mobility impaired pilot. Remember, the RFFS have the risk imposed on them.

Secondly, Genghis mentions a risk of damage to the aircraft structure by very heavy occupants. Remember, the damage you’ve just caused may not be apparent now. The next guy to fly the aircraft may find out about it the hard way. Possibly the clubs/schools concerned are trying to exercise their duty of care towards their other customers.

Finally so far as Darul is concerned, I think that you have two hurdles. First in finding an aircraft that’s large enough to take you. By this I mean the doors open wide enough, the seats are wide enough and the aircraft is capable of safely lifting you, your instructor and sufficient fuel.

The second hurdle is to obtain a medical certificate.

The question of which you do first is a “chicken ‘n’ egg” question which only you can answer, based on what schools have told you when they refused your business.

Early in the thread somebody mentioned the TB9. My experience of TB’s is that the seats are no wider than a PA28’s and are less adjustable. (There’s no rake adjustment for the seatback alone, for example). Furthermore, while the cabin may be wider, there’s a centre console (which carries the throttle, mixture controls etc) that restricts space. Entry to the cockpit is by way of “gull wing” doors (hinged at the top). While they provide a generous gap, it’s no more generous than a Warriors door fully opened.

Finally I endorse the earlier view which says that you may have to accept that your size prevents you ever being a pilot. Flying is (quite rightly) something that requires a level of medical fitness, not only for your sake, but for those who may be affected by your actions. Regrettably, it may be that you’ll just have to accept that or will have to make the effort to loose the excess.

P

[ACW 335]

I don't see much wrong with the Atkins diet (from my sports science knowledge about the body and how it utilises different nutrients) - Just make sure you have some carbs in it! ow about, go for a trial flight, get training and once you hav lost a bit, allow yourself a couple of lessons, and once you have lost a bit more, have another couple of lessons and so on. Be strict with yourself, see it as a goal NOT a barrier. Perhaps you could cycle to and from your lessons - do a bit more on the way! The hardest bit is getting back into bing 'fit' - the first bit is painful, but once you are there, you start to enjoy it! Why not get a personal fitness instructor or someone to go to the gym with - just for motivation! Set yourself targets rather than jumping in at the deep end - targets are far more rewarding!
Darul, do you smoke?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Cheers for that link.

So BMI of 35 or more only fit subject to an additional assessment, but no ban as such.

FD

[Monocock]

englishal

Can relate to your story really well.

Cycling and a healthy diet makes a lardy into a very very fit person very quickly indeed. I cycle daily (20 minutes) and have given up on ****ey foods like crisps, chocolate etc and I feel and look a lot better.

Do yourself a favour and do some proper exercise. If you do you'll find weight loss 100% easier than some silly Atkins malachy........

[IO540]

May I ask how Americans manage? As a nation, they have a much bigger weight/obesity problem than the UK, and they can't all be flying Bonanzas

One CFI told me that a particular Cessna, if FAA registered, could carry a lot more weight. The CAA reduced it for the UK POH.

[mazzy1026]

Good point mono

Its sometimes quite hard to mix excersise with full time work. When I getr home at about 5-6pm the last thing I wanna do is go excersising. So I have tea and relax for a couple of hours, maybe surf the net, come on here etc. Then about 9pm after food is digested, the roads are quiet and I go for a run round the block (big block - about 2 miles) its not far but I plod along slowly and squeeze 20 mins out of it. 20 mins is the minimum you should aim for.

I bought a reebok skipping rope and holy cr*p its hard to use - i'd be lucky to get 30 seconds out of it but VERY good for CV workout !

Running firms up the legs first and then you will slowly start to notice the results further up the body - I think its the hardest excersise a human can do aint it ? Correct me if i'm wrong.

Enjoy

Maz

[shortstripper]

Blimey!

Perhaps there is something to be said for being a farmer. I eat whatever I like and rarely put on any weight ... my colestrol has got a bit dodgy though, so I guess I'll have to cut down on the Stilton

Seriously though, I reckon BMI is a load of old tosh as it doesn't take into account body type. Before anyone comments, yes there IS a difference and weight v height just isn't a good enough way to measure. My wife should only weigh 8 stone for her height ... she is a bit overweight but once got down to 9.5 and looked really ill!

Do try to loose a bit of weight ... excercise beats any diet, but don't get so hung up on it as to spoil life (sounds like you know that anyway).

Good luck with the flying.

SS

[BEagle]

Well, I reckon with a Warrior with an empty weight of 1543 lb and arm of 85.96 in, to get your 25 stone plus a 170 lb FI into the ac, you could only just carry 'tabs' fuel of 28.3 imp gall - but only if you put 75 lb of ballast in the luggage compartment. That'd get you to the extreme corner of the trim envelope at the forward limit and max weight. Any less ballast and you'd go out of the front of the envelope.....

So you could probably learn to fly in a Warrior - but you'd have to bring a 75 lb bag of ballast with you and tie it down securely in the baggage compartment on every dual trip.

You would never be able to fly a Warrior dual in the 'utility' category as even without any fuel or ballast at all, you'd be 43lb over the limit.

[mad_jock]

Spoke to the AME today and he confirms all that has been said on the medical side of things. There is no ban as such but it would sound warning bells.

I think Gengis has more valid points to note about the seat loadings etc. I believe there is also a paper work exercise which can increase the max all up weight of a PA28. The only difference appears to be a slight increase in the pref charts and always using 1 stage of flap for TO.

MJ