Blue Pullovers and Gold Stripes
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We've strayed of the thread somewhat. My original question was whether instructors in uniform intimidated students and made them less likely to ask questions or admit mistakes.
Personally, I've got no desire to be an airline pilot. I enjoy flying interesting aircraft, doing aerobatics and navigating my way on long cross-countries using good old-fashioned map, compass and stopwatch. I relish the opportunity to chat to experienced aviators, and have learned a huge amount by asking questions and discussing my mistakes. I can do all of this because I feel at ease in our flying club environment and because experienced aviators tend to be very open and approachable. Arrogance and big-headedness have no place in aviation, in my opinion.
Capt M - you're right that FIs in uniform look no more ridiculous than supermarket and fast-food workers. That's not saying much though, is it. And yes, I agree that it is the individual that counts - so often, however, the individuals with the most to offer have the least to prove. I do wear a flying suit in the Chipmunk, and would advocate instructors and students alike to do the same - that's down to practicality and safety (loose objects, copious oil etc.). In more modern tricycle trainers there's no real need. I would prefer to see instructors looking couth, smart, relaxed and uniform-free.
The worst offender I ever saw was at Stapleford. He came roaring through the gate in a flashy car with a posy number plate, all designer-sunglassed, cotton-shirted and epauletted up. He had his seat reclined back into the Italian racing driver position, his elbow out of the window and one finger on the steering wheel. He blasted his horn to shoo my colleagues and me out of the way and shot off into the distance with a squeal from his tyres. I saw him later giving a nervous-looking student a helicopter lesson.
Personally, I've got no desire to be an airline pilot. I enjoy flying interesting aircraft, doing aerobatics and navigating my way on long cross-countries using good old-fashioned map, compass and stopwatch. I relish the opportunity to chat to experienced aviators, and have learned a huge amount by asking questions and discussing my mistakes. I can do all of this because I feel at ease in our flying club environment and because experienced aviators tend to be very open and approachable. Arrogance and big-headedness have no place in aviation, in my opinion.
Capt M - you're right that FIs in uniform look no more ridiculous than supermarket and fast-food workers. That's not saying much though, is it. And yes, I agree that it is the individual that counts - so often, however, the individuals with the most to offer have the least to prove. I do wear a flying suit in the Chipmunk, and would advocate instructors and students alike to do the same - that's down to practicality and safety (loose objects, copious oil etc.). In more modern tricycle trainers there's no real need. I would prefer to see instructors looking couth, smart, relaxed and uniform-free.
The worst offender I ever saw was at Stapleford. He came roaring through the gate in a flashy car with a posy number plate, all designer-sunglassed, cotton-shirted and epauletted up. He had his seat reclined back into the Italian racing driver position, his elbow out of the window and one finger on the steering wheel. He blasted his horn to shoo my colleagues and me out of the way and shot off into the distance with a squeal from his tyres. I saw him later giving a nervous-looking student a helicopter lesson.
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Ah sassenach, but it's all been said before, and it's so much fun 
Southwest Airline pilots are as professional as they come, but they have great uniform sense over holiday season. They greet you at the door wearing silly red noses, flashing lights all over their hats, and ties which really shouldn't be allowed out during daylight hours.
All good fun, but we all know they know their job, and respect for that isn't diminished because they are dressed up in a way some might consider unprofessional. If anything it makes me fly Southwest more.
We had an instructor who started coming to work wearing bars, he got canned. That was in the US though, and more to do with the fact his attitude didn't fit in with what the customer's at that particular flying school wanted. I am sure he would fit in somewhere else, and would make a competent airline pilot too.
Southwest Airline pilots are as professional as they come, but they have great uniform sense over holiday season. They greet you at the door wearing silly red noses, flashing lights all over their hats, and ties which really shouldn't be allowed out during daylight hours.
All good fun, but we all know they know their job, and respect for that isn't diminished because they are dressed up in a way some might consider unprofessional. If anything it makes me fly Southwest more.
We had an instructor who started coming to work wearing bars, he got canned. That was in the US though, and more to do with the fact his attitude didn't fit in with what the customer's at that particular flying school wanted. I am sure he would fit in somewhere else, and would make a competent airline pilot too.
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Isn't the biggest reason for instructors wearing some form of uniform or badge is that you can tell they are instructors.
Anyone who has flown at a club for more than a couple of years know that most instructors do not hang around that long and your favourite face for asking questions will not always be there.
At least this way you know the person you are asking the question of is an instructor and not someone who popped along for a coffee.
This is especially true of somewhere like White Waltham with sometimes hundreds of people milling around.
Anyone who has flown at a club for more than a couple of years know that most instructors do not hang around that long and your favourite face for asking questions will not always be there.
At least this way you know the person you are asking the question of is an instructor and not someone who popped along for a coffee.
This is especially true of somewhere like White Waltham with sometimes hundreds of people milling around.
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Hi Beechnut:
Personally, I don't think that you have justify wearing a blue woolly pully while flying. I myself have a black one and a green one (courtesy of HM the Queen), and indeed they are reasonably warm, not too bulky, and fairly smart looking. But like you, I never wear them with miltary rank, badges or other insignia.
Personally, I don't think that you have justify wearing a blue woolly pully while flying. I myself have a black one and a green one (courtesy of HM the Queen), and indeed they are reasonably warm, not too bulky, and fairly smart looking. But like you, I never wear them with miltary rank, badges or other insignia.
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Cat Manuvarwhatever,
Good aeroplane handling skills never did me any harm. What else is there to know for the types of aeroplanes I fly? Social skills to impress the girlfriend? Reading skills to digest the latest copy of Flyer? Domestic skills to make the tea in the flying school kitchen?
Just because my instructor apparently didnt give a $hit about fire safety doesnt mean he didnt know his stuff with the flying controls.
Sorry I obviously forgot that all a modern day pilot needs is the latest GPS and a copy of MS Flight sim 2000 and he's an expert! Oh and an imitation leather pilot briefcase and some epaulettes of course!
Good aeroplane handling skills never did me any harm. What else is there to know for the types of aeroplanes I fly? Social skills to impress the girlfriend? Reading skills to digest the latest copy of Flyer? Domestic skills to make the tea in the flying school kitchen?
Just because my instructor apparently didnt give a $hit about fire safety doesnt mean he didnt know his stuff with the flying controls.
Sorry I obviously forgot that all a modern day pilot needs is the latest GPS and a copy of MS Flight sim 2000 and he's an expert! Oh and an imitation leather pilot briefcase and some epaulettes of course!
Last edited by Zlin526; 12th Mar 2004 at 06:24.
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I'm often ammused how the word professional seems to be associated with wearing a uniform.
A uniform provides a rapid means of identifying certain people in certain situations for example the emergency services. It does not reflect their ability to do the job.
Thus a uniform is useful for prospective students to identify who are instructors.
This would not be required if more instructors were to show a bit more interest in strangers that walk through their flying club 'school' doors.
All that is needed is to be of smart appearance be it shirt, tie, club produced pullover. We don't have to be airline clones.
Be imaginative!
A uniform provides a rapid means of identifying certain people in certain situations for example the emergency services. It does not reflect their ability to do the job.
Thus a uniform is useful for prospective students to identify who are instructors.
This would not be required if more instructors were to show a bit more interest in strangers that walk through their flying club 'school' doors.
All that is needed is to be of smart appearance be it shirt, tie, club produced pullover. We don't have to be airline clones.
Be imaginative!
For my first civvy instructor job, I wore clean presentable clothes. The flying was fun, and we did not pretend to be like Capt Stubings (the Luuuuve Boat).
The next school I worked for, I was given two striper epps. The CFI (the only other pilot) wore four stripes.
The aircraft were small single engine funships.
Still after all this time, the significance of the stripes eludes me. Is there a formal standard?
The next school I worked for, I was given two striper epps. The CFI (the only other pilot) wore four stripes.
The aircraft were small single engine funships.
Still after all this time, the significance of the stripes eludes me. Is there a formal standard?
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I detect a hint of jealousy among the anti-uniform brigade. I can bet you a fiver most of you have wished to have a professional pilot job but never got the chance. there's no point slagging of the fortunate few.
And if you want to see a lot of very professional flying instructors wearing anything except gold bars, take a trip to this side of the channel.
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sassenach
To answer your original question, i don't think uniform has as much effect on students as the instructors' attitude. If 1-in-1000 students have some uniform phobia, i don't think its cause for a massive shake up. Personally i find the instructors at my club(white shirts/black tie/pullover) to be more approachable than a lot of the 'experienced' PPLs(flown 100 taildraggers, been to L2K 2000 times, anti-GPS/ATC/CAA Brigade) you find around the clubhouse.
Uniforms give the wearer some form of authority and i think there is an insignificant minority(low self esteem) who might feel intimidated by an FI in uniform.
Some flying schools especially in the US and helo schools in the UK are part of an FBO. which means the FI may also be a charter/cargo pilot. So one minute they could be doing a t/l in a C152 and the next minute they are flying a learjet full of suits.
Personally i will treat FIs who insist on dressing up with the same amount of caution as i would the 'rebels'.
Zlin526
There is more to flying than handling skills. Navigation skills, aircraft familiarity(there's a thread full of stories of people pulling the wrong levers), R/T skills, AIRMANSHIP, flight planning skills, meteorological knowledge,etc
Capt. manuvar
To answer your original question, i don't think uniform has as much effect on students as the instructors' attitude. If 1-in-1000 students have some uniform phobia, i don't think its cause for a massive shake up. Personally i find the instructors at my club(white shirts/black tie/pullover) to be more approachable than a lot of the 'experienced' PPLs(flown 100 taildraggers, been to L2K 2000 times, anti-GPS/ATC/CAA Brigade) you find around the clubhouse.
Uniforms give the wearer some form of authority and i think there is an insignificant minority(low self esteem) who might feel intimidated by an FI in uniform.
Some flying schools especially in the US and helo schools in the UK are part of an FBO. which means the FI may also be a charter/cargo pilot. So one minute they could be doing a t/l in a C152 and the next minute they are flying a learjet full of suits.
Personally i will treat FIs who insist on dressing up with the same amount of caution as i would the 'rebels'.
Zlin526
There is more to flying than handling skills. Navigation skills, aircraft familiarity(there's a thread full of stories of people pulling the wrong levers), R/T skills, AIRMANSHIP, flight planning skills, meteorological knowledge,etc
Capt. manuvar
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Gold Bars
In my PPL training I have had a number of instructors. The one with 4 bars just seemed bored teaching PPL skills and I always thought he was wishing he was somewhere else! My two bar very young instructor was very good and often didn't wear uniform but was required to do so if he was taking people for trial flights, sightseeing trips etc- presumably to inspire confidence in those nervous of flying in small planes.
My best instructors and CFI in Inverness never felt the need to flaunt Gold bars, knew their stuff and were very approachable.
I personally felt slightly initimidated by the 4 bars brigade!
My best instructors and CFI in Inverness never felt the need to flaunt Gold bars, knew their stuff and were very approachable.
I personally felt slightly initimidated by the 4 bars brigade!
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If a flying school is to attract slick clients it needs to have a slick image. This means the employees need to look smart and professional, and behave as such too. This means they shouldn't go around in scruffy clothing, swear etc.
But I think gold bars and such are a bit of a joke. There is no military rank or whatever involved after all. And few people who actually have them for real (airline pilots) won't be PPL instructing unless they are trying to reduce their income below the CSA assessment threshold
But I think gold bars and such are a bit of a joke. There is no military rank or whatever involved after all. And few people who actually have them for real (airline pilots) won't be PPL instructing unless they are trying to reduce their income below the CSA assessment threshold
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For whatever it may be worth, here's what I typically wear whilst instructing:
(1) a 16-year-old Tilley hat, to keep the sun off;
(2) a 20-year-old ex-CF 'work dress' shirt (long-sleeved, to keep the sun off);
(3) a pair of Tilley 'classic shorts" (to keep cool);
(4) a pair of worn-out slip-on shoes (which my wife calls my "golfing and gliding shoes").
Too intimidating for you?
(1) a 16-year-old Tilley hat, to keep the sun off;
(2) a 20-year-old ex-CF 'work dress' shirt (long-sleeved, to keep the sun off);
(3) a pair of Tilley 'classic shorts" (to keep cool);
(4) a pair of worn-out slip-on shoes (which my wife calls my "golfing and gliding shoes").
Too intimidating for you?
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MLS-great style!
I share your notions of comfort. I fly for fun but work in technical management (tech services/quality assurance). At the last firm I worked at we were obliged to wear ties. I joked that when they finally joined the 20th century (well it was in the '90s), I would burn all my ties except the ugliest one, which I would keep for weddings and funerals. They did rescind the rule. I didn't quite go that far but got rid of a lot of them. I have no use for the ******s.
Where I work now everyone from the Prez on down dresses casual. We just hired a new manager (he's a Super Cub driver incidentally), but he always shows up to work in a tie. In fact the only person there that does. I wonder how long before his (and my) boss clues him in? My boss can make a t-shirt look like formal wear.
Jeans in winter, shorts in summer (I'm cheap, usually worn-out dockers with the legs chopped off), no socks, sandals, bargain brand polo shirt. I have no problem flying in sandals.
When we do a Young Eagles day or somesuch, I haul out a flight suit I own to impress the kiddies and reassure the mommies...no bars or insignia though.
Mike
I share your notions of comfort. I fly for fun but work in technical management (tech services/quality assurance). At the last firm I worked at we were obliged to wear ties. I joked that when they finally joined the 20th century (well it was in the '90s), I would burn all my ties except the ugliest one, which I would keep for weddings and funerals. They did rescind the rule. I didn't quite go that far but got rid of a lot of them. I have no use for the ******s.
Where I work now everyone from the Prez on down dresses casual. We just hired a new manager (he's a Super Cub driver incidentally), but he always shows up to work in a tie. In fact the only person there that does. I wonder how long before his (and my) boss clues him in? My boss can make a t-shirt look like formal wear.
Jeans in winter, shorts in summer (I'm cheap, usually worn-out dockers with the legs chopped off), no socks, sandals, bargain brand polo shirt. I have no problem flying in sandals.
When we do a Young Eagles day or somesuch, I haul out a flight suit I own to impress the kiddies and reassure the mommies...no bars or insignia though.
Mike
Last edited by BeechNut; 13th Mar 2004 at 10:09.
I'd love to turn up at one of those silly blue-and-gold places in some Ruritanian band masters uniform with gold dangly bits on the shoulders and pink strides with gold stripes up the sides just to take the pi$$!!!
Wear what's comfy - if you want to look like a chief customs officer, go ahead. Just wash the damn pullover now and again please!
Wear what's comfy - if you want to look like a chief customs officer, go ahead. Just wash the damn pullover now and again please!
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As a female student eight years ago, I would'nt have been able to keep a straight face if my instructor had turned up covered in gold bars. He would have been intimidated by my laughing. Plain white shirt, tie, dark trousers, plain dark jumper in winter, and nice shiny shoes, sign of a well groomed man, just right, identified him as an Instructor without being over the top. Don't think jeans and T shirt would look very professional.
Ties and light aeroplanes don't mix! You need to LOOK OUT as much as possible and anything which impedes head movement such as a strangling neck tie is an avoidable hazard. And the solution is NOT a clip on tie - such things are very tacky indeed.....
Shiney shoes aren't much use either - they leave too much of a mark when you're kicking students' backsides
only kidding!!
Shiney shoes aren't much use either - they leave too much of a mark when you're kicking students' backsides
only kidding!!
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Save the stripes for the Airlines!!!! (Why wear more bars than the aeroplane's got seats?!?!?!)
From experience of students being sick, climbing over PA28 C150 and the like all day showing students where to inspect, walking to aeroplanes parked on wet grass, and refuelling your own aeroplane a uniform doesn't last five minutes.
This instructor dresses smart as expected by my CFI (black shoes, trousers, white shirt and a tie........ Never affects my lookout by the way) but most of the clothes I use for instructing come from Accel Stop Distance Available. Cheap enough to throw away when the marks don't wash out!
Come to think of it, in all my years of flying, I dont think I've ever owned a shirt with eppaulettes on it!
Happy landings
HOP
From experience of students being sick, climbing over PA28 C150 and the like all day showing students where to inspect, walking to aeroplanes parked on wet grass, and refuelling your own aeroplane a uniform doesn't last five minutes.
This instructor dresses smart as expected by my CFI (black shoes, trousers, white shirt and a tie........ Never affects my lookout by the way) but most of the clothes I use for instructing come from Accel Stop Distance Available. Cheap enough to throw away when the marks don't wash out!
Come to think of it, in all my years of flying, I dont think I've ever owned a shirt with eppaulettes on it!
Happy landings
HOP
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Out of curiosity, does anyone have any evidence to justify the dangers that ties pose to light aviation.
WWII pilots wore ties and i don't recall any accidents or deaths that resulted or anyone complaining about ties affecting their lookout, even though i stand to be corrected.
I'd be careful when handproping if i was wearing a tie though.
Capt. manuvar
WWII pilots wore ties and i don't recall any accidents or deaths that resulted or anyone complaining about ties affecting their lookout, even though i stand to be corrected.
I'd be careful when handproping if i was wearing a tie though.
Capt. manuvar
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Depends on the tie ... WW2 pilots wore silk scarfs to help them look around as it stopped chaffed skin. I'd have thought a normal tie in a C150 or the like would be fine, but I too would be very wary if hand propping
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