Problems with landing!! Advice??!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SE England
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go circuit bashing in a tail dragger (Like a grob 109) with a different instructor. Jump back in whatever you nomally fly and everything will be so much easier. Also have you tried grass?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Biggleswade
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notwithstanding other posts, I'm still of the opinion that you're going too far too fast. I've discussed it with colleagues this morning and they are of the same mind.
Every sylabus I've seen for learning to fly puts navigation at the end of the course. First solo is followed by circuit consolodation, then off circuit work such as sector recce, steep turns, pfl's. It's done that way for a reason, you need to consolodate circuit flying and landings before you learn anything else. Go too far ahead and you'll loose what you've already learned. Further, when you've finally got around to flying the circuits you seem to need, you'll have forgotten how to steep turn, forced land and navigate and will have to repeat those exercises.
Doing things out of order is a great way to put hours in yours and your instructors log book. In the long term, it's also a great way to waste money.
Get some circuit practice in and if the weather's not fit, don't fly.
Every sylabus I've seen for learning to fly puts navigation at the end of the course. First solo is followed by circuit consolodation, then off circuit work such as sector recce, steep turns, pfl's. It's done that way for a reason, you need to consolodate circuit flying and landings before you learn anything else. Go too far ahead and you'll loose what you've already learned. Further, when you've finally got around to flying the circuits you seem to need, you'll have forgotten how to steep turn, forced land and navigate and will have to repeat those exercises.
Doing things out of order is a great way to put hours in yours and your instructors log book. In the long term, it's also a great way to waste money.
Get some circuit practice in and if the weather's not fit, don't fly.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: DNMM/UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FOZ2
IO540 is totally right about Airpseed control and also about landing speed being dependent on different configurations. one of the intergrated schools (Oxford?) teach this from day one. In airliners Vref can vary by as much as 40kias!!
65KIAS is the landing speed at MTOW with flap 20. If you just completed a long XC flight and instructor jumps out and you try to land it at 65KIAS/flap20 you should expect a to float a bit. I'll personally use about 60kias if i'm solo and less than 3/4 fuelled. But its better to use 65kias for now and later on as you get more confident you can experiment with different airspeeds. the PA28 i fly is supposed to be landed at 75 kts at MTOW but on my last flight i was solo with 1/4 fuel and i had no prob landing at 65.
Safe flying
Capt. M
IO540 is totally right about Airpseed control and also about landing speed being dependent on different configurations. one of the intergrated schools (Oxford?) teach this from day one. In airliners Vref can vary by as much as 40kias!!
65KIAS is the landing speed at MTOW with flap 20. If you just completed a long XC flight and instructor jumps out and you try to land it at 65KIAS/flap20 you should expect a to float a bit. I'll personally use about 60kias if i'm solo and less than 3/4 fuelled. But its better to use 65kias for now and later on as you get more confident you can experiment with different airspeeds. the PA28 i fly is supposed to be landed at 75 kts at MTOW but on my last flight i was solo with 1/4 fuel and i had no prob landing at 65.
Safe flying
Capt. M
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbedane has hit the nail on the head.
The syllabus is structured in such a way as to help you to consolidate what you have just completed whilst expanding your skills a little bit each flight.
I have flown with far too many pilots and student pilots who can do ace steep turns but can't fly a decent circuit on a windy day, or fly S&L with external visual references only... The solo consolidation phase is a delicate and formative time designed not only to give you an opportunity to practice your flying skills but importantly a time to practice being in command of the aircraft and making decisions and judgements for yourself without the emotional safety net of an instructor by your side.
I suggest that if the weather is not suitable for solo circuit consolidation, you would be better served by doing a few dual circuits and getting some landing and crosswind landing practice in. That will help you greatly when the weather is good enough for the instructor to jump out again.
And another point... When you are faced with the challenge of not only flying the aircraft and doing something else at the same time (such as navigating) you don't want to be distracted by less than reasonable weather during the first couple of attempts. There is no point in rushing the basics - it will cost you in the long run. We live in a climate less than ideally suited to PPL training and if you happen to be training during the winter we just have to accept these limitations.
Best of luck - I'm sure it'll come good for you.
SOS
The syllabus is structured in such a way as to help you to consolidate what you have just completed whilst expanding your skills a little bit each flight.
I have flown with far too many pilots and student pilots who can do ace steep turns but can't fly a decent circuit on a windy day, or fly S&L with external visual references only... The solo consolidation phase is a delicate and formative time designed not only to give you an opportunity to practice your flying skills but importantly a time to practice being in command of the aircraft and making decisions and judgements for yourself without the emotional safety net of an instructor by your side.
I suggest that if the weather is not suitable for solo circuit consolidation, you would be better served by doing a few dual circuits and getting some landing and crosswind landing practice in. That will help you greatly when the weather is good enough for the instructor to jump out again.
And another point... When you are faced with the challenge of not only flying the aircraft and doing something else at the same time (such as navigating) you don't want to be distracted by less than reasonable weather during the first couple of attempts. There is no point in rushing the basics - it will cost you in the long run. We live in a climate less than ideally suited to PPL training and if you happen to be training during the winter we just have to accept these limitations.
Best of luck - I'm sure it'll come good for you.
SOS
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the PA28 i fly is supposed to be landed at 75 kts at MTOW but on my last flight i was solo with 1/4 fuel and i had no prob landing at 65.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This tends to make you try to "force" it onto the ground before it is ready, usually resulting in a poor landing.
Landing is about correct threshold speed, correct ROD, correct attitude. If you have all three you will land safely and where you WANT to land, not just where you end up...
Best,
SOS
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all your opinions and help.
I went up today for 2 hours solo and it seems to have clicked!! I nailed pretty much all of the landings! Funny what one nights sleep will do eh??!!
With the greatest respect to Aerbedane and Shower of sparks, I do not agree as I am training fulltime. If I hadnt have gone on those dual navs and pfls etc I probably wouldnt have even sat in a plane for a month and I would have been totally out of the groove.
As I said I am training fulltime so I will not have forgotten pfls etc. I am a firm believer in if you are really struggling with something dont keep beating your head against a brick wall by doing hundreds and hundreds of dual circuits. Try something different and then come back to it with a different frame of mind. It seems to have worked for me!!
Thanks all for your input.
Foz.
I went up today for 2 hours solo and it seems to have clicked!! I nailed pretty much all of the landings! Funny what one nights sleep will do eh??!!
With the greatest respect to Aerbedane and Shower of sparks, I do not agree as I am training fulltime. If I hadnt have gone on those dual navs and pfls etc I probably wouldnt have even sat in a plane for a month and I would have been totally out of the groove.
As I said I am training fulltime so I will not have forgotten pfls etc. I am a firm believer in if you are really struggling with something dont keep beating your head against a brick wall by doing hundreds and hundreds of dual circuits. Try something different and then come back to it with a different frame of mind. It seems to have worked for me!!
Thanks all for your input.
Foz.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey Foz,
I might be a little l8 in replying to this post as you seemed to have got it now. I too am a low hour PPL and have found that even though you've got it now - don't be disheartened if next time aint so pretty. That's flying!!! One of the many pieces of great advice my instructor gave me (hi elizabeth) was to get the airspeed where you want it on final and keep it there. Trim for your decent configuration make small corrections. Ensure your permanently scanning the length of the runway and develope a sense of depth perception in your peripheral vision. Once in the hold-off/flare phase fight off ground effect and sit the aircraft on the main wheels. I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs but it is something that is hard to explain. It is a "feel" matter more than a text book issue. Remember every situation is different and sometimes what is right on a given day might be different on the next. It's your job as the pilot to asses the situation and do the best you can for any given circumstance. I don't completly agree with landing the aircraft stalled but have found that kissing the runway just as the stall warner sounds to be a good idea on short fields. Remember the warner is exactly that, just a warning that the aerofoil is approaching the stall. A good recovery/go-around can be made from the warner. Hope this helps and good luck with your flying.
BirdSeed
I might be a little l8 in replying to this post as you seemed to have got it now. I too am a low hour PPL and have found that even though you've got it now - don't be disheartened if next time aint so pretty. That's flying!!! One of the many pieces of great advice my instructor gave me (hi elizabeth) was to get the airspeed where you want it on final and keep it there. Trim for your decent configuration make small corrections. Ensure your permanently scanning the length of the runway and develope a sense of depth perception in your peripheral vision. Once in the hold-off/flare phase fight off ground effect and sit the aircraft on the main wheels. I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs but it is something that is hard to explain. It is a "feel" matter more than a text book issue. Remember every situation is different and sometimes what is right on a given day might be different on the next. It's your job as the pilot to asses the situation and do the best you can for any given circumstance. I don't completly agree with landing the aircraft stalled but have found that kissing the runway just as the stall warner sounds to be a good idea on short fields. Remember the warner is exactly that, just a warning that the aerofoil is approaching the stall. A good recovery/go-around can be made from the warner. Hope this helps and good luck with your flying.
BirdSeed
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOS
Maybe I didn't word it right ?
I was referring to the "float" that occurs when flaring with too much speed on. The aircraft doesn't settle at the point you want or expect it to, hence a relatively new PPL will see the runway being eaten up without feeling the wheels touch where they expected or wanted them to, hence the "force it before it is ready" comment.
Of course if threshold speed / ROD / attitude are correct then you will land where you want to, but when you are new (and not so new in some cases) to it then maybe not all 3 are just how you would want them.
Regards
NH
Maybe I didn't word it right ?
I was referring to the "float" that occurs when flaring with too much speed on. The aircraft doesn't settle at the point you want or expect it to, hence a relatively new PPL will see the runway being eaten up without feeling the wheels touch where they expected or wanted them to, hence the "force it before it is ready" comment.
Of course if threshold speed / ROD / attitude are correct then you will land where you want to, but when you are new (and not so new in some cases) to it then maybe not all 3 are just how you would want them.
Regards
NH
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Reading
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best tuition I had was from my RAF QFI when I flew on Southampton UAS. Basically they teach you to:
(a) fly a constant and stable approach, adjusting your speed for the conditions (such as add 5 knots in stronger winds for safety).
(b). When you come to flare, look out of the cockpit into the far distance, and use your peripheral vision to look at the grass either side of the r/way (this was a very large tarmac r/way at Boscombe Down
). When the grass seems to be about level with your eyes, your wheels are about to touch (this was for a Bulldog, but I have found the principle is the same in a Warrior). Don't get put off by ground rush.
(c). Always aim to fly the aircraft onto the runway. Do not just give up and wait for the wheels to touch otherwise you'll bounce.
These principles stood me in good stead when I eventually got around to doing my PPL.
(a) fly a constant and stable approach, adjusting your speed for the conditions (such as add 5 knots in stronger winds for safety).
(b). When you come to flare, look out of the cockpit into the far distance, and use your peripheral vision to look at the grass either side of the r/way (this was a very large tarmac r/way at Boscombe Down
). When the grass seems to be about level with your eyes, your wheels are about to touch (this was for a Bulldog, but I have found the principle is the same in a Warrior). Don't get put off by ground rush.(c). Always aim to fly the aircraft onto the runway. Do not just give up and wait for the wheels to touch otherwise you'll bounce.
These principles stood me in good stead when I eventually got around to doing my PPL.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also did my PPL full time and like foz2, went on to do dual navigation due to weather preventing me to do solo circuits. This enabled me to stay up in the air rather than not being able to fly for ages!
It didn't mean that I was "rushing the basics" at all, and it didn't cause me any extra costs for that matter!! I still managed to complete in minimum hours. Rather than waiting for the weather for solo consolidation I was able to continue flying. And by doing the navigation, I still had to come back and land so I got more dual practice from that! I think its a bit harsh to say get a new instructor, the majority of people do find landing difficult but eventually you will get it!! (Which you obviously have done foz!) Its not always the instructors fault, its just how quickly you get the hang of it.
The moral of the story is perhaps not to criticise the teaching until you know the intentions of the instructor. I had the same instructor for all of my training apart from a couple of lessons whilst he was on holiday. Its best to stick with one person rather than changing between instructors as they will get to know the way you fly and will probably understand the best way to explain things to you as a person. If you feel at ease and get along with them as well then thats a bonus, as it makes the flying even more enjoyable!!
Good luck with your flying foz2!!
It didn't mean that I was "rushing the basics" at all, and it didn't cause me any extra costs for that matter!! I still managed to complete in minimum hours. Rather than waiting for the weather for solo consolidation I was able to continue flying. And by doing the navigation, I still had to come back and land so I got more dual practice from that! I think its a bit harsh to say get a new instructor, the majority of people do find landing difficult but eventually you will get it!! (Which you obviously have done foz!) Its not always the instructors fault, its just how quickly you get the hang of it.
The moral of the story is perhaps not to criticise the teaching until you know the intentions of the instructor. I had the same instructor for all of my training apart from a couple of lessons whilst he was on holiday. Its best to stick with one person rather than changing between instructors as they will get to know the way you fly and will probably understand the best way to explain things to you as a person. If you feel at ease and get along with them as well then thats a bonus, as it makes the flying even more enjoyable!!
Good luck with your flying foz2!!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
practice on a PC
I had trouble with landing at the beginning of my PPL course. I was ready to go solo except for the rather crucial missing bit that I couldn’t land. My instructor kept on showing me how to do it, and lesson after lesson went by without success. We were both getting frustrated and I was seriously thinking about stopping because I thought I would never get it. Then I thought of a way to get as much practice as I wanted to, on Flight Simulator.
I already had MS Flight Sim 2002, but only a joystick, so no rudders (the rudder is done automatically if you have a joystick). I actually think part of the problem I had is that I simply wasn’t used to using rudder pedals because I had used the computer so much before I started to learn to fly. I invested in some proper pedals and a plane yoke with levers for the throttle and mixture etc. (cost about £180, less than 1.5 hrs lesson down here).
One Sunday night before a lesson on the Monday I sat at my PC and landed again and again (I think about 40 times). I went solo the next day at 15 hours.
I am not advocating the PC as the be all and end all, but it is a very useful way to “keep your eye in”. If you are going to an unfamiliar airfield it can be useful to see what it looks like before you get there for real, the ones I have tried all have the right taxiways and layouts. I still use it if I haven’t flown for a while, it saves me money in the air.
There is some sound advice in the other posts on this thread, and doing it on your PC would enable you to practice different methods for a relatively small one off outlay.
Steve
I already had MS Flight Sim 2002, but only a joystick, so no rudders (the rudder is done automatically if you have a joystick). I actually think part of the problem I had is that I simply wasn’t used to using rudder pedals because I had used the computer so much before I started to learn to fly. I invested in some proper pedals and a plane yoke with levers for the throttle and mixture etc. (cost about £180, less than 1.5 hrs lesson down here).
One Sunday night before a lesson on the Monday I sat at my PC and landed again and again (I think about 40 times). I went solo the next day at 15 hours.
I am not advocating the PC as the be all and end all, but it is a very useful way to “keep your eye in”. If you are going to an unfamiliar airfield it can be useful to see what it looks like before you get there for real, the ones I have tried all have the right taxiways and layouts. I still use it if I haven’t flown for a while, it saves me money in the air.
There is some sound advice in the other posts on this thread, and doing it on your PC would enable you to practice different methods for a relatively small one off outlay.
Steve
