Biggin Hill ATC
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Biggin Hill ATC
Last year, I posted a thread on here about Biggin Hill ATC, or more precisely the issue of split frequencies at the unit, which led to a long and, at times, quite heated debate.
In recent times, I have flown from Biggin on a number of occasions (as well as tuning in at FL90 whilst overhead the field in the hold) and the unit is now virtually always providing both a Tower and an Approach service.
I assume that the staffing problems that prevented this from happening last year have now been resolved and I’m sure that many others on this board will join me in taking this opportunity of thanking all of the ‘Boys and Girls’ there at Biggin for all of their hard work regarding this issue. There is no doubt that the introduction of the almost permanent spit-frequency has made Biggin a much more enjoyable and, hopefully, safer place to fly from.
With very best wishes,
Big Hilly
In recent times, I have flown from Biggin on a number of occasions (as well as tuning in at FL90 whilst overhead the field in the hold) and the unit is now virtually always providing both a Tower and an Approach service.
I assume that the staffing problems that prevented this from happening last year have now been resolved and I’m sure that many others on this board will join me in taking this opportunity of thanking all of the ‘Boys and Girls’ there at Biggin for all of their hard work regarding this issue. There is no doubt that the introduction of the almost permanent spit-frequency has made Biggin a much more enjoyable and, hopefully, safer place to fly from.
With very best wishes,
Big Hilly
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I've never had any reason to go to Biggin Hill, but I remember the thread well, and it certainly would have influenced my decision on whether or not to go there had I ever considered a visit.
Very glad to hear that it's all sorted out now. I will now add Biggin to my list of places that I'd be quite happy to go to if the opportunity ever arises!
Out of interest, what do you feel were the factors which influenced this improvment? Do you think PPRuNe played any part? Big/small? Was it more down to complaints through official channels? Or was it simply a temporary staffing problem that would have fixed itself over the course of time regardless of any actions which you or others took?
FFF
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Very glad to hear that it's all sorted out now. I will now add Biggin to my list of places that I'd be quite happy to go to if the opportunity ever arises!
Out of interest, what do you feel were the factors which influenced this improvment? Do you think PPRuNe played any part? Big/small? Was it more down to complaints through official channels? Or was it simply a temporary staffing problem that would have fixed itself over the course of time regardless of any actions which you or others took?
FFF
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In recent times, I have flown from Biggin on a number of occasions (as well as tuning in at FL90 whilst overhead the field in the hold) and the unit is now virtually always providing both a Tower and an Approach service.
WF.
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They, (Biggin Hil in general), seemed a bit short staffed on Wednesday lunch time...
The refueller was also wearing the marshaller's hat and the cashier's hat. One of those surreal experiences when you get sent from one place to another for different things and a clone serves you....
Guess everyone else was clearing the snow from the apron in front of the International Terminal!
The refueller was also wearing the marshaller's hat and the cashier's hat. One of those surreal experiences when you get sent from one place to another for different things and a clone serves you....
Guess everyone else was clearing the snow from the apron in front of the International Terminal!
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FFF
There really was not any time when you should have avoided Biggin. As several of us tried to say at the time, it is a very well controlled environment, and ATC, though sometimes busy, is always calm and competent.
I think I agree with BH that 138.4 seems to be in use more now than before, but I didn't agree with hem then that it was underused.
In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.
But do come, it's a really good GA environment.
Timothy
There really was not any time when you should have avoided Biggin. As several of us tried to say at the time, it is a very well controlled environment, and ATC, though sometimes busy, is always calm and competent.
I think I agree with BH that 138.4 seems to be in use more now than before, but I didn't agree with hem then that it was underused.
In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.
But do come, it's a really good GA environment.
Timothy
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Timothy,
We went over all of that in the 'first episode' on here, mate and I don't think it's a good idea to open that particular 'can of worms' up again.
To reiterate; the point of my post was that:[list=1][*]Changes have been made, which anyone with an ounce of good airmanship will see can only be for the better.[*]To say a big "Thank You" to all involved in enabling these changes to have been made and to hope that others will have the good grace to join me in my vote of thanks.[/list=1]
BTW, I think you'll find it's 134.8!
FFF,
Not sure whether or not the original thread did have any bearing on the decision. It is my understanding that the CAA were aware of it, so who knows? Either way, the people in the right places made the right decision.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly
I think I agree with BH that 138.4 seems to be in use more now than before, but I didn't agree with hem then that it was underused.
In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.
In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.
To reiterate; the point of my post was that:[list=1][*]Changes have been made, which anyone with an ounce of good airmanship will see can only be for the better.[*]To say a big "Thank You" to all involved in enabling these changes to have been made and to hope that others will have the good grace to join me in my vote of thanks.[/list=1]
BTW, I think you'll find it's 134.8!
FFF,
Not sure whether or not the original thread did have any bearing on the decision. It is my understanding that the CAA were aware of it, so who knows? Either way, the people in the right places made the right decision.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly
Last edited by Big Hilly; 31st Jan 2004 at 23:53.
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Biggin is no better or worse then anywhere else really. Good Wx weekends can be busy, especially after about 11 ish as people start launching off but no major dramas. Circuit can get very busy but again ATC are always good about it and do their best to handle the level of traffic around.
As for TWR/App frequency split I have no real problem with that either, all part of handling aircraft really. Most aircraft have either flip/flop on the radio or a second box, those that don't just require a bit more planning and work.
At the risk of flaming, I'd say that unless you have an urgency/emergency, handling two frequencies as part of the arrival/departure checks should be well within the capacity of any pilot (I hope!)
now prioritising ILS traffic is another matter, especially of a VFR day, perhaps SATCO Biggin could say a few words about the policy and practices for that ....
As for TWR/App frequency split I have no real problem with that either, all part of handling aircraft really. Most aircraft have either flip/flop on the radio or a second box, those that don't just require a bit more planning and work.
At the risk of flaming, I'd say that unless you have an urgency/emergency, handling two frequencies as part of the arrival/departure checks should be well within the capacity of any pilot (I hope!)
now prioritising ILS traffic is another matter, especially of a VFR day, perhaps SATCO Biggin could say a few words about the policy and practices for that ....
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QuackDriver
When you say 'a VFR day', I take it you mean VMC? I guess the reason why ILS traffic is prioritised over a/c flying VFR (at any ATC unit) is because they are:[list=1][*]IFR- (this requires more co-ordination with Approach/Radar therefore more work for an already busy ATC unit. More co-ordination = less time controlling a/c).[*]Require IFR vs IFR separation standards (again more work for an already busy ATC unit)[*]Commercial aircraft (the majority of) with paying passengers who are probably not flying for fun but for business or on medivac flights or whatever (as opposed to light a/c flying VFR, 99.9% for fun).[*]It's usually larger aircraft that utilise the ILS and it's those who pay the most money in landing/handling fees. Airports are businesses after all. [/list=1]
Imagine yourself as a Global Express pilot (or other complicated/high cockpit workload a/c) on final approach, after a long stressful flight from America (or Manchester), only to be sent around from the ILS by ATC (as an example, at Biggin Hill) just because some unfortunate Cessna 152 which was on a circuit training detail on final approach doing 60KT groundspeed (for fun). In this scenario, this jet would have to carry out a 'Standard Missed Approach' (which looking at the AIP chart for Biggin Hill is not the easiest or shortest in the world). This avoidable manoeuvre would possibly cost the jet operator hundreds of pounds in extra fuel/euro control fees, and also causing a higher work load for ATC let alone the jet pilot. I don't know about you but I'd rather the C152 either orbit/extend downwind or in some cases go-around in order to facilitate the jet. Now do you see why ILS a/c get priority over a/c flying VFR?
(These are my opinions and not those of my employer NATS LTD)
now prioritising ILS traffic is another matter, especially of a VFR day, perhaps SATCO Biggin could say a few words about the policy and practices for that ....
Imagine yourself as a Global Express pilot (or other complicated/high cockpit workload a/c) on final approach, after a long stressful flight from America (or Manchester), only to be sent around from the ILS by ATC (as an example, at Biggin Hill) just because some unfortunate Cessna 152 which was on a circuit training detail on final approach doing 60KT groundspeed (for fun). In this scenario, this jet would have to carry out a 'Standard Missed Approach' (which looking at the AIP chart for Biggin Hill is not the easiest or shortest in the world). This avoidable manoeuvre would possibly cost the jet operator hundreds of pounds in extra fuel/euro control fees, and also causing a higher work load for ATC let alone the jet pilot. I don't know about you but I'd rather the C152 either orbit/extend downwind or in some cases go-around in order to facilitate the jet. Now do you see why ILS a/c get priority over a/c flying VFR?
(These are my opinions and not those of my employer NATS LTD)
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TEN-4,
I assume, by that you mean a flight where one has to change frequencies at three miles, then again at six miles!!
SATCO Biggin,
I hope I wasn't the reason for the "
". If so, then please feel free to PM me and I'll happily talk things through 'off the record'.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly
Imagine yourself as a Global Express pilot (or other complicated/high cockpit workload a/c)....
SATCO Biggin,
I hope I wasn't the reason for the "
". If so, then please feel free to PM me and I'll happily talk things through 'off the record'.Best wishes,
Big Hilly
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I assume, by that you mean a flight where one has to change frequencies at three miles, then again at six miles!!
What pleasure do you get from these silly little wind-ups?
Timothy
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TEN-4,
Funny you should mention that. Whilst I was hour building a couple of years ago I was asked to turn an early base and keep my speed up on an approach into Van Nuys, CA.
I was in a C152 and a following Gulfstream Jet had to go around. Ooops.
Then again, it was a "VFR"/CAVOK'ey type of day, so they just had to do a visual go-around into the circuit. I'll bet they were a bit pi$sed off though
Personally, I think that if you are given priority by ATC over a larger/thirstier/more expensive aircraft you should be able to negotiate with the other traffic so that they will pay your fuel bill on landing if you let them land first
FIS.
Funny you should mention that. Whilst I was hour building a couple of years ago I was asked to turn an early base and keep my speed up on an approach into Van Nuys, CA.
I was in a C152 and a following Gulfstream Jet had to go around. Ooops.
Then again, it was a "VFR"/CAVOK'ey type of day, so they just had to do a visual go-around into the circuit. I'll bet they were a bit pi$sed off though
Personally, I think that if you are given priority by ATC over a larger/thirstier/more expensive aircraft you should be able to negotiate with the other traffic so that they will pay your fuel bill on landing if you let them land first
FIS.
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Timothy/WCollins (Or whatever you've decided to call yourself this week),
This is not the place for a flame war.
Should you wish to continue this conversation away from these boards, then feel free to PM me and I shall be only too happy to put you straight, in private.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly.
This is not the place for a flame war.
Should you wish to continue this conversation away from these boards, then feel free to PM me and I shall be only too happy to put you straight, in private.
Best wishes,
Big Hilly.
Last edited by Big Hilly; 3rd Feb 2004 at 18:54.
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Guys,
I know nothing of Biggin Hill, or the obvious politics going on there. But this thread was clearly started to simply say thank you.
The first post on this thread didn't go into any arguments or issues, but simply said "Thanks". Why go back over old ground, and turn a thank you thread into an old argument?
BH tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?
dp
I know nothing of Biggin Hill, or the obvious politics going on there. But this thread was clearly started to simply say thank you.
The first post on this thread didn't go into any arguments or issues, but simply said "Thanks". Why go back over old ground, and turn a thank you thread into an old argument?
BH tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?
dp
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FIS,
I recently spend a little flying time in the US and it was amazing that people in small spam cans get treated with the same egards as the heavier metal. I was actually embarrassed by seeing a few bizjets waiting at the hold for me to do my touch and go.
But then commercial pressures may well be entirely different in the States!
On the whole I think that we get dealt with fairly by ATC as long as you can fit yourself in and discharge yourself with some degree of ability of the task of aeroplane driver.
FD
I recently spend a little flying time in the US and it was amazing that people in small spam cans get treated with the same egards as the heavier metal. I was actually embarrassed by seeing a few bizjets waiting at the hold for me to do my touch and go.
But then commercial pressures may well be entirely different in the States!
On the whole I think that we get dealt with fairly by ATC as long as you can fit yourself in and discharge yourself with some degree of ability of the task of aeroplane driver.
FD
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Timothy/WCollins
Now now ladies, I'm sure you didn't have that kind of attitude when you were flying for a living.......... why have it now on an open forum? 
Like dublinpilot say's, Big Hilly tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?- well said Dublinpilot!
Big Hilly, it's nice to occasionally here some good news on Pprune and I'm glad that whatever changes have been made at Biggin Hill are for the better! Maybe I'll pop down south to have a look one day.
TEN-4 BB.
Do you not understand the difference between an inability to do something and not wanting the bother of doing something?
Like dublinpilot say's, Big Hilly tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?- well said Dublinpilot!
Big Hilly, it's nice to occasionally here some good news on Pprune and I'm glad that whatever changes have been made at Biggin Hill are for the better! Maybe I'll pop down south to have a look one day.
TEN-4 BB.
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Actually I was asking a sensible question. I was interested because I have been sent around on a number of occasions because of IFR traffic on the approach, on one occasion ending up doing more then two circuits because I was instructed to break left to the deadside and then rejoin.
Having an IMC rating myself I can appreciate that there is a lot of work involved in getting onto and then down the glide slope, but on a VMC day for light single traffic, when I had already been sent round twice by IFR traffic I thought it would be nice if the inbound IFR had the opportunity to try a break for visual join, especially when I'm already down to 300' on the approach .... /rant off
The sensible question was .... if there is a way I can help by arranging my flight to avoid such times when there is a lot of inbound IFR traffic then I'd like to help and do so, but if there are no guidelines or preferences or such then I'm a bit stuck working out how to help out if I can.
I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative I genuinely want to know what the policy is so if I'm aware of IFR traffic I can do an orbit or take a long down wind or hold at 7oaks or whatever.
The original circumstances were, I'm sure, exceptional, but if there are 3 flights on the glide slope then letting joining or aircraft in the circuit know this might help so we can offer to orbit or hold as appropriate ........ just a thought
Having an IMC rating myself I can appreciate that there is a lot of work involved in getting onto and then down the glide slope, but on a VMC day for light single traffic, when I had already been sent round twice by IFR traffic I thought it would be nice if the inbound IFR had the opportunity to try a break for visual join, especially when I'm already down to 300' on the approach .... /rant off
The sensible question was .... if there is a way I can help by arranging my flight to avoid such times when there is a lot of inbound IFR traffic then I'd like to help and do so, but if there are no guidelines or preferences or such then I'm a bit stuck working out how to help out if I can.
I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative I genuinely want to know what the policy is so if I'm aware of IFR traffic I can do an orbit or take a long down wind or hold at 7oaks or whatever.
The original circumstances were, I'm sure, exceptional, but if there are 3 flights on the glide slope then letting joining or aircraft in the circuit know this might help so we can offer to orbit or hold as appropriate ........ just a thought
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QuackDriver
Just do what ATC tell you to do. Do it promptly, correctly without asking why and your be OK! Whatever you do, don't spontaneously orbit, reduce speed or climb/descend without first notifying ATC......unless of course you are taking avoiding action!
I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative I genuinely want to know what the policy is so if I'm aware of IFR traffic I can do an orbit or take a long down wind or hold at 7oaks or whatever.
Whatever you do, don't spontaneously orbit, reduce speed or climb/descend without first notifying ATC......unless of course you are taking avoiding action!
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BH and I have had a very constructive chat off-line and I am sure that there will be no repetition of that little bit of fur flying.
I apologise to the rest of you, as I have to BH, for my negative contribution.
Timothy
I apologise to the rest of you, as I have to BH, for my negative contribution.
Timothy