Single engine over water
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Flying over large bodies of water should never be taken lightly, a friend of mine who flies regularly over the Great Lakes uses the following criteria as a go no go.
He does not attempt to fly across the lake unless he is at an altitude where by should his engine/s quit he can safely glide to one shore or the other. If he can't reach the altitude that he determined is safe, he turns around and goes home.
Often in a Cessna Caravan (C208) this means he must be at 8000 or higher, depending on weather conditions. One must never forget that even in the heat of an August summer that the water temp out near the middle of the Lake Michigan rarely exceeds 60, Lake Superior is even colder. If you go for a swim how long can you tread water before hypothermia sets in? How long does it take Seach and Rescue to launch and find you?
It never ceases to amaze me to see pilots flying VFR or IFR over long distances of water down low where should their engine quit they are guaranteed that they are going for a swim.
Granted todays aircraft engines are extremely reliable, but why risk becoming a statistic?
Mike
NATCA FWA
He does not attempt to fly across the lake unless he is at an altitude where by should his engine/s quit he can safely glide to one shore or the other. If he can't reach the altitude that he determined is safe, he turns around and goes home.
Often in a Cessna Caravan (C208) this means he must be at 8000 or higher, depending on weather conditions. One must never forget that even in the heat of an August summer that the water temp out near the middle of the Lake Michigan rarely exceeds 60, Lake Superior is even colder. If you go for a swim how long can you tread water before hypothermia sets in? How long does it take Seach and Rescue to launch and find you?
It never ceases to amaze me to see pilots flying VFR or IFR over long distances of water down low where should their engine quit they are guaranteed that they are going for a swim.
Granted todays aircraft engines are extremely reliable, but why risk becoming a statistic?
Mike
NATCA FWA
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.....because the very essence of life is risk it is what makes us unique! We all make a risk assement in everything we do. A risk that is acceptable to one person may not be to another.
What are we to do if we are unprepared to take risk, lie in bed and wait to die? Of course there is a risk that you will get bed sores!
I fly over water all the time, I wear a lifejacket and take a life raft. For really long trips I fly the twin. I accept the level of risk associated with this, it is my choice.
I also stand up when I pee despite the risk that I may slip on the wet tiles, hit my head and brain myself!
Each to there own.
What are we to do if we are unprepared to take risk, lie in bed and wait to die? Of course there is a risk that you will get bed sores!
I fly over water all the time, I wear a lifejacket and take a life raft. For really long trips I fly the twin. I accept the level of risk associated with this, it is my choice.
I also stand up when I pee despite the risk that I may slip on the wet tiles, hit my head and brain myself!
Each to there own.
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This thread is making me chilly! Anyone any suggestions as to getting some ditching training? Inflating & getting into my raft could be a real challenge in a swell, some training as to what it might feel like would be useful.
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There are a number of places on the south coast the will provide you with training. The RYA will be able to give you a list of places that will provide life raft training. You can also do the full sea ditching course in Aberdeen but it is more aimed at helicopter than lite aircraft. It is a lot of fun!!
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and if you smoke you well get lung cancer, if you drink you will get liver disease, if you eat read meat you will get cancer, if you step out in the road not looking you will get run over, if you walk into the prop you will get minced, if drop your stereo into the bath with you you will get electrocuted!
The list goes on and on. Life is risk, live it!
The list goes on and on. Life is risk, live it!
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I am interested to see that people out there seem to take fewer precautions in the summer. Given that the sea water temperature is lowest in March and warmest in October I wonder how many take an Easter trip to the continent on summer percautions. Particularly if it is a nice hot day, you wear fewer clothes in the cockpit, so I would say that the (slightly)warmer water temperatures in the summer are offset by the fewer clothes worn.
I'm with Skydriller on this one. Survival suits, proper lifejackets (not airline style) and proper training. You will not believe how hard it is to get into a life raft until you try it. Then you realise you are in a calm swimming pool.
Mind you if you have a liferaft sat on the backseat that is not properly tied in, isn't it more likely to kill you in the impact that save your life once you get into the water?
Oh and another point, why is this restricted to SEPs? I always consider light twins slightly more dangerous than a single, particularly with a non current pilot.
At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide what precaution to take. As long as your passengers have the same view.
Timothy, I hope your 20% is down to the number of flights rather than number of ditchings!
I'm with Skydriller on this one. Survival suits, proper lifejackets (not airline style) and proper training. You will not believe how hard it is to get into a life raft until you try it. Then you realise you are in a calm swimming pool.
Mind you if you have a liferaft sat on the backseat that is not properly tied in, isn't it more likely to kill you in the impact that save your life once you get into the water?
Oh and another point, why is this restricted to SEPs? I always consider light twins slightly more dangerous than a single, particularly with a non current pilot.
At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide what precaution to take. As long as your passengers have the same view.
Timothy, I hope your 20% is down to the number of flights rather than number of ditchings!
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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I always consider light twins slightly more dangerous than a single, particularly with a non current pilot.
Timothy, I hope your 20% is down to the number of flights rather than number of ditchings!
Timothy
Why do it if it's not fun?
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this is all very well, to be high enough to glide to shore but if your IMC and over water
GOOD NIGHT
GOOD NIGHT
Over land, I agree that an engine failure in IMC is trouble, because you will have almost no time to pick a crash-site (depending on the cloud base). But over the sea, it doesn't really matter where you crash, you're going to get wet. I can't see how popping out of the clouds at 500' before ditching is any more dangerous than being in VMC at 5000' and ditching.
FFF
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FFF
sorry a bit misleading, what I meant was if your going to glide to make the shore and in IMC, then you crash into the white cliffs of Dover.
Just trim her out and read a book
sorry a bit misleading, what I meant was if your going to glide to make the shore and in IMC, then you crash into the white cliffs of Dover.
Just trim her out and read a book
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Dubtrub
Will let you know when I have the full sp on the cause of the problem.
2Donkeys
I fully agree with your comment about wife and children. It certainly went through my mind afterwards that a ditching with Mrs Approach and three small children on board would have been a complete nightmare, even in summer conditions. For the foreseeable future it will be shortish sea crossings or two engines.
Will let you know when I have the full sp on the cause of the problem.
2Donkeys
I fully agree with your comment about wife and children. It certainly went through my mind afterwards that a ditching with Mrs Approach and three small children on board would have been a complete nightmare, even in summer conditions. For the foreseeable future it will be shortish sea crossings or two engines.
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A Palamino I know only flies 4 engined aircraft. Upon quizzing, he says " 'cause there ain't no 5-engined ones".
Domestic economies, however, oft dictate the use of one's trusty single (as mine), so the short crossing for me. The ferries sometimes overtake me, but if the worst comes to the worst, I hope the sea-gazing wave-vomiters will notify a responsible person if I glide past their effluent path on my way down to a gentle plosh adjacent to their oil-calmed waters.
Seriously, always go for a sailing boat...they are much more likely to see you and be able to stop.
Domestic economies, however, oft dictate the use of one's trusty single (as mine), so the short crossing for me. The ferries sometimes overtake me, but if the worst comes to the worst, I hope the sea-gazing wave-vomiters will notify a responsible person if I glide past their effluent path on my way down to a gentle plosh adjacent to their oil-calmed waters.
Seriously, always go for a sailing boat...they are much more likely to see you and be able to stop.
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Interesting thread this, and it's a subject close to my heart.
First, a few thoughts on risk. I was at a seminar in the states a few years ago when a test pilot stated: 'If the consequences are catastrophic, then it don't matter how slim the chances of it happening are, you've got to take it into account'. He went on to describe a missile firing that went wrong...... His original statement has always stuck in my mind. It is oh-so true when applied to the failure of the engine in a single engined aircraft, especially over water.
My own philosophy is to never (unless I can really help it) fly over water single engined. On the rare ocasions that I've had to, I've either sat on a bangseat (with appropiate survival gear), or worn an immersion suit, a parachute/dinghy, and a life preserver.
Further, in an outfit I used to fly for, we never flew single engined IMC when the cloudbase was less than 1500 ft over the terrain we were flying over. My current outfit is currently re-writing the Flying Order Book to prohibit flight in IMC single engined when the cloudbase over which one is flying is less than 1000ft agl.
I know that the risk of engine failure is slight when compared to other risks one exposes oneself too, but I expose myself to other risks as well as tht of engine failure, and risk is accumulative - I've also sufferred several engine failures and partial engine failures.
I also agree that it has to be each to his own........but there are old pilots and bold pilots............
First, a few thoughts on risk. I was at a seminar in the states a few years ago when a test pilot stated: 'If the consequences are catastrophic, then it don't matter how slim the chances of it happening are, you've got to take it into account'. He went on to describe a missile firing that went wrong...... His original statement has always stuck in my mind. It is oh-so true when applied to the failure of the engine in a single engined aircraft, especially over water.
My own philosophy is to never (unless I can really help it) fly over water single engined. On the rare ocasions that I've had to, I've either sat on a bangseat (with appropiate survival gear), or worn an immersion suit, a parachute/dinghy, and a life preserver.
Further, in an outfit I used to fly for, we never flew single engined IMC when the cloudbase was less than 1500 ft over the terrain we were flying over. My current outfit is currently re-writing the Flying Order Book to prohibit flight in IMC single engined when the cloudbase over which one is flying is less than 1000ft agl.
I know that the risk of engine failure is slight when compared to other risks one exposes oneself too, but I expose myself to other risks as well as tht of engine failure, and risk is accumulative - I've also sufferred several engine failures and partial engine failures.
I also agree that it has to be each to his own........but there are old pilots and bold pilots............
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When I worked as a controller in Northern Michigan we would arrange training sessions for pilots at the Coast Guard Air Station so that pilots could learn how to be better prepared in the even of a water landing, or a crash. We often had over 100 pilots show up for the class, the day would end with the Coast Guard putting on a demonstration of a water rescue.
Mike
Mike
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Guys,
I remember ditching courses being mentioned here before. Were they RAF courses?
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows of a similar course in Ireland?
Failing that, are the (RAF?) courses a one day thing, that I could pop over and do on a weekend? Where can I find some info on them?
This thread has me thinking too much
Thanks
dp
I remember ditching courses being mentioned here before. Were they RAF courses?
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows of a similar course in Ireland?
Failing that, are the (RAF?) courses a one day thing, that I could pop over and do on a weekend? Where can I find some info on them?
This thread has me thinking too much
Thanks
dp
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Erm, see picture at left for an alternative approach to single engine over water.
Seriously though, whenever I've been in a floatplane there has never been any question of life jackets, rafts etc. I suppose the theory must be that you're going to be OK staying with the plane, even after it has capsized. But I've never been told this or seen it written down anywhere - do floatplanes ever sink after capsizing after ditching after engine failure?
Seriously though, whenever I've been in a floatplane there has never been any question of life jackets, rafts etc. I suppose the theory must be that you're going to be OK staying with the plane, even after it has capsized. But I've never been told this or seen it written down anywhere - do floatplanes ever sink after capsizing after ditching after engine failure?