Single engine over water
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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do floatplanes ever sink after capsizing after ditching after engine failure?
Actually, when you think about it, even boatsmen wear lifejackets and ships have lifeboats, and these are machines designed to float, not fly!
Seriously, a floatplane stands very little chance of landing and staying in one piece in some of the swells that are common in the North Sea and English Channel, and, as you are more likely to fly a floatplane near water, there is more reason rather than less to carry a dinghy.
IMHO.
Timothy
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Dublin,
Check with your Coast Guard or who ever does Search and Rescue over there. If you don't have any luck there, see if you can talk with the Public Affairs Officer at one of the U.S. Air Force Bases in the UK and see if they would organize a water rescue seminar.
Mike
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Check with your Coast Guard or who ever does Search and Rescue over there. If you don't have any luck there, see if you can talk with the Public Affairs Officer at one of the U.S. Air Force Bases in the UK and see if they would organize a water rescue seminar.
Mike
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I believe that flying over water in a SEP is very personal and depends on your own level of comfort. The engine doesn't know what it is flying over and I'd prefer it to quit over water than when I'm crossing the Appenines
I flew nearly 15 hours over the Mediterrean Sea last year (summer months) with life jackets, dinghy and personal ELB (watch) and was perfectly happy.
I wouldn't be keen to do so during winter.
Funny enough, in December flying over the Indian Ocean during circuits at Durban I felt quite uncomfortable, even if we were near the beach.
This thread has got me thinking: I'll double check all equipment on future overwater flights.
Ciao,
AE
I flew nearly 15 hours over the Mediterrean Sea last year (summer months) with life jackets, dinghy and personal ELB (watch) and was perfectly happy.
I wouldn't be keen to do so during winter.
Funny enough, in December flying over the Indian Ocean during circuits at Durban I felt quite uncomfortable, even if we were near the beach.
This thread has got me thinking: I'll double check all equipment on future overwater flights.
Ciao,
AE
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The C208 crash into Lake Erie had no survivors, the weather and ice was making recovery efforts difficult. Lake Erie is relatively a very shallow lake (average depth is about 15 feet).
Mike
Mike
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Slightly off thread this, but I heard a probable apocryphal wartime story in this vein. A crew were required to ferry a Catalina across the Atlantic. One of the flight crew mentioned some apprehension at crossing with only two engines, to be met with the response "Well in that case, you could always taxy across!"
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A pondering: no risk = high cost
I've flown across the channel in a Warrior a few times, wearing just life-jackets, and on the last occasion and after reading a previous thread on this topic, with a life-raft.
The real challenge, surely, is the eternal balance (or judgement) between cost and risk.
It seems that the four items you need, to be at the lowest risk are life-jackets, life-raft (£500), Location Device (£100?) and immersion suit (£200 each?).
Can someone verify these prices? How would you prioritise these?
On risk, don't most humans judge risk on whether it's happened to them or to someone close to them? i.e. the risk of getting caught for speeding feels much higher once we're caught!. Take smokers for example? People smoke, even though they know it can kill them. I wonder if smoking is more dangerous than flying (GA)?
Your average GA pilot has squeezed every penny together to be able to fly, and finds the safety costs a bit over the top, especially when most PPLs (judging from watching people loading and unloading from cross-channel trips) survive and fly in ignorance or denial; "it hasn't happened to me, or to someone I know, so it will be ok."
It is illogical to talk about cost when the ultimate cost is your's and possibly someone else's life. But for many, it comes down to a decision as to whether to find the £1,000 to buy the reduced risk or to use it for more flying or whatever. And because most pilots on most flights from most airfields survive, most people opt not to buy the reduced risk.
So, on the basis that this thread has got a few of us worried, what is the most economical way to get access to the safety equipment if you are an occasional (ie. once every two months) SEP channel/Irish Sea crosser for leisure?
Editted to point out that we wore clothes as well as the life-jackets, but had no other safety equipment
The real challenge, surely, is the eternal balance (or judgement) between cost and risk.
It seems that the four items you need, to be at the lowest risk are life-jackets, life-raft (£500), Location Device (£100?) and immersion suit (£200 each?).
Can someone verify these prices? How would you prioritise these?
On risk, don't most humans judge risk on whether it's happened to them or to someone close to them? i.e. the risk of getting caught for speeding feels much higher once we're caught!. Take smokers for example? People smoke, even though they know it can kill them. I wonder if smoking is more dangerous than flying (GA)?
Your average GA pilot has squeezed every penny together to be able to fly, and finds the safety costs a bit over the top, especially when most PPLs (judging from watching people loading and unloading from cross-channel trips) survive and fly in ignorance or denial; "it hasn't happened to me, or to someone I know, so it will be ok."
It is illogical to talk about cost when the ultimate cost is your's and possibly someone else's life. But for many, it comes down to a decision as to whether to find the £1,000 to buy the reduced risk or to use it for more flying or whatever. And because most pilots on most flights from most airfields survive, most people opt not to buy the reduced risk.
So, on the basis that this thread has got a few of us worried, what is the most economical way to get access to the safety equipment if you are an occasional (ie. once every two months) SEP channel/Irish Sea crosser for leisure?
Editted to point out that we wore clothes as well as the life-jackets, but had no other safety equipment
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Risk factors should also be quantified differently when dealing with people other than yourself. Personally, I'd be quite happy to cross the Irish sea in a single, but there's no way I'm taking my missus and toddler son until I've got a twin rating (and the money to hire one 
).
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Safety equipt
Being a boat owner (RIBS) as well as a novice SPIC, living on the Isle of Man, I guess all my longer trips are going to be over water.
I have various auto inflation LJ's, and a full drysuit for my boating activities.
Would these be suitable for aviation?
Cheers
I have various auto inflation LJ's, and a full drysuit for my boating activities.
Would these be suitable for aviation?
Cheers
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Auto-inflating LJs are a stunningly bad idea in an aircraft. Since it is often only possible to exit the cabin of the aircraft once water pressure has equalised on both sides of the door (especially in high-wing types), the jacket will in all likelihood inflate before you can get out... This is a bad thing.
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 21st Jan 2004 at 01:59.
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jayemm
Life jackets are £50-£90. Nearly all those on general sale for the GA market are identical internally; are contract manufactured by Remploy and the spec varies a little; e.g. the more expensive ones such as SEMS (also sold by Transair at Transair prices) have "less sweaty" fabric.
Life rafts start at about £1100. You can get them for a bit less but those are without a canopy and thus no good for cold driving rain; in heavy seas only marginally better than swimming. A canopy is essential. I've got one but if I was getting one again I would get one from RFD; they sell off their website and are much better value that the American ones sold for the "aviation" market. Life rafts are supposed to be serviced regularly (not a UK legal requirement for private flights) and if you buy the "wrong" one you can find that the service is expensive because nobody stocks the replacement bottles, etc - I got burned on this myself. www.rfd.co.uk is worth a look. The drawback of the RFD ones is size/weight.
For locators, the old ~200MHz ones which are still widely sold are a waste of time because the satellite location has poor accuracy and too many false alarms to be useful. You need the 403MHz one and they start at perhaps £500, slightly more if a GPS is inside. It can be argued that an integral GPS is not necessary when flying in the civilised world because SAR services are common, but elsewhere you may be relying entirely on commercial shipping (most of which nowadays navigates using GPS and they can sail directly to a given GPS location) and a built-in GPS is essential. www.sartech.co.uk is one place to look.
Dry suits I have no idea about.
Personally I always fly with a bag containing a handheld GPS and a handheld transceiver. These would be dead handy if you end up floating somewhere, couldn't do the mayday call (or nobody heard it - easily done around France on a Sunday) and the EPIRB is duff. You can easily call up an airliner at 30,000ft, even 100 miles away - I gather they monitor 121.50 en-route.
I have never ditched but the above appears to be the condensed wisdom from people I have spoken to when researching the subject.
Life jackets are £50-£90. Nearly all those on general sale for the GA market are identical internally; are contract manufactured by Remploy and the spec varies a little; e.g. the more expensive ones such as SEMS (also sold by Transair at Transair prices) have "less sweaty" fabric.
Life rafts start at about £1100. You can get them for a bit less but those are without a canopy and thus no good for cold driving rain; in heavy seas only marginally better than swimming. A canopy is essential. I've got one but if I was getting one again I would get one from RFD; they sell off their website and are much better value that the American ones sold for the "aviation" market. Life rafts are supposed to be serviced regularly (not a UK legal requirement for private flights) and if you buy the "wrong" one you can find that the service is expensive because nobody stocks the replacement bottles, etc - I got burned on this myself. www.rfd.co.uk is worth a look. The drawback of the RFD ones is size/weight.
For locators, the old ~200MHz ones which are still widely sold are a waste of time because the satellite location has poor accuracy and too many false alarms to be useful. You need the 403MHz one and they start at perhaps £500, slightly more if a GPS is inside. It can be argued that an integral GPS is not necessary when flying in the civilised world because SAR services are common, but elsewhere you may be relying entirely on commercial shipping (most of which nowadays navigates using GPS and they can sail directly to a given GPS location) and a built-in GPS is essential. www.sartech.co.uk is one place to look.
Dry suits I have no idea about.
Personally I always fly with a bag containing a handheld GPS and a handheld transceiver. These would be dead handy if you end up floating somewhere, couldn't do the mayday call (or nobody heard it - easily done around France on a Sunday) and the EPIRB is duff. You can easily call up an airliner at 30,000ft, even 100 miles away - I gather they monitor 121.50 en-route.
I have never ditched but the above appears to be the condensed wisdom from people I have spoken to when researching the subject.
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Thanks for tips
I have a manual LJ too, so looks like that's the one to take
Good idea about VHF and GPS too - I have those in aquapacs
What about flares? Presumably same as nautical requirements?
Drysuit might be a bit warm in the plane!
I have a manual LJ too, so looks like that's the one to take
Good idea about VHF and GPS too - I have those in aquapacs
What about flares? Presumably same as nautical requirements?
Drysuit might be a bit warm in the plane!
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Risk:
When looking at the risks involved in an action, you've got to look at the probability of the occurrence and the consequences should it happen. The chance of an engine failing is very slim, but should it fail, then the consequences could be catastrophic if the failure is over water. In which case, the risk could be considered as unaceptable.
The effect of the consequences can be reduced with appropriate survival equipment and that is where the questions of whether to, whether not to, and what to buy/take with you just in case makes themselves felt. It also reduces the risk to an acceptable level.
The individual involved is the only one who can make that decision, but he must make it with good pre-knowledge. There’s enough good advice around already on the subject, so I’ll not repeat it here. Suffice to say that I still don’t fly single engine over water unless I really have to.
There is also good advice available on the internet on risk management - it might be worth a look before you next fly over water.........
When looking at the risks involved in an action, you've got to look at the probability of the occurrence and the consequences should it happen. The chance of an engine failing is very slim, but should it fail, then the consequences could be catastrophic if the failure is over water. In which case, the risk could be considered as unaceptable.
The effect of the consequences can be reduced with appropriate survival equipment and that is where the questions of whether to, whether not to, and what to buy/take with you just in case makes themselves felt. It also reduces the risk to an acceptable level.
The individual involved is the only one who can make that decision, but he must make it with good pre-knowledge. There’s enough good advice around already on the subject, so I’ll not repeat it here. Suffice to say that I still don’t fly single engine over water unless I really have to.
There is also good advice available on the internet on risk management - it might be worth a look before you next fly over water.........
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I bought an aviation immersion suit from Andark Marine in Swanick near Southampton for about £200. It makes you look a bit of a prat but combined with the right clothes underneath extends your survival time in water by a couple of hours at the coldest time of year (March) when the sea is around 2-5 degrees celsius. (In a dinghy you can last almost indefinitely)
It's not too uncomfortable flying in it and it behaves as a flight suit as it has lots of pockets etc. I always use it October to April.
I have also been on an underwater Helicopter/Light aircraft excape and survival course at the same place. Its a one day course and it taught me that if you ditch and end up underwater isnide the cabin you will get out if you are alone and following the course instructions. If you have others in the plane who have not experienced the effects underwater (especially upside down) then the chances of getting out rapidly diminish.
http://www.andark.co.uk/main.html
I also carry dinghy, lifejackets, handheld gps, transceiver, dry sweater and beacon all in a waterproof bag.
With family on board it is always the shortest route over sea and thorough briefing (and usually airways!)
It's not too uncomfortable flying in it and it behaves as a flight suit as it has lots of pockets etc. I always use it October to April.
I have also been on an underwater Helicopter/Light aircraft excape and survival course at the same place. Its a one day course and it taught me that if you ditch and end up underwater isnide the cabin you will get out if you are alone and following the course instructions. If you have others in the plane who have not experienced the effects underwater (especially upside down) then the chances of getting out rapidly diminish.
http://www.andark.co.uk/main.html
I also carry dinghy, lifejackets, handheld gps, transceiver, dry sweater and beacon all in a waterproof bag.
With family on board it is always the shortest route over sea and thorough briefing (and usually airways!)
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I have also been on an underwater Helicopter/Light aircraft excape and survival course at the same place. Its a one day course and it taught me that if you ditch and end up underwater isnide the cabin you will get out if you are alone and following the course instructions
The wing and tail boom cavities will rapidly fill up with water if the relevant part is submerged. All you have left are the tanks (hopefully partially empty!) and the cockpit itself.
If the cockpit fills up with water, would the tank buoancy be enough to keep it from sinking? I doubt it; my plane is ~900kg empty and the tank volume is about 300 litres (=300kg of water) so even if the tanks were full of air it would make no difference once the cockpit is filled.
So, if you are still inside the cockpit AND you are underwater, the aircraft will already be sinking to the bottom, and pretty rapidly too - ships are known to sink at up to 40mph and even a fraction of that is likely to be most uncomfortable.
If the water is only say 10m deep and is very clear, it would make sense to wait till movement stops and then try to escape, but most of the sea is far deeper than that, and very dirty.
So the idea must be to get out immediately the aircraft settles on the water. Especially if it is a Cessna (no wing flotation).
I have also read that a drysuit could be quite a hindrance if one is submerged - a bit like an inflated life jacket. I know one can let the excess air out by poking a finger down the nect/arm seals but someone in this situation won't have time for that.
Have I missed something obvious?
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I know that the CAA have a proposal out at present regarding the fitting of floats which would effectively prevent most recreational helicopter pilots from making sea crossings.
Does anybody know if there is anything similar in the pipeline to prevent SEP aircraft from going out of gliding range of land?
It would certainly make it easier to get a table at L'Escale in Le Touquet.
Personally I continue to make sea crossings in SEP and microlight aircraft because I choose to accept the risk. I have given up the IOW to Cherbourg route for the winter though.
Does anybody know if there is anything similar in the pipeline to prevent SEP aircraft from going out of gliding range of land?
It would certainly make it easier to get a table at L'Escale in Le Touquet.
Personally I continue to make sea crossings in SEP and microlight aircraft because I choose to accept the risk. I have given up the IOW to Cherbourg route for the winter though.
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jayemm
Interesting question wrt costs. Here is my compromise given I cross the channel a little less frequently than you, but in hired a/c:
I have always found either the hirer, or someone on the airfield is willing to lend/ hire me a liferaft - so I have never seen the need to buy one myself.
I have however bought a cheap 121.5 EPRB (approx £150). As my sea crossings are shortish channel routes, my view is that normally I'll get a mayday call out on the way down with an approx position (& I have a transceiver anyway). Then (after surviving the splash etc)the important thing is that a SAR helicopter can home in quickly. So I'm happy for it just to have 121.5 as I understand they are not going to be getting rid of the 121.5 homing on SAR helicopters in the near future.
Its also useful if you have the misfortune to go down in remote mountains, as was written up by the AAIB in the last year or so I think.
To all:
If you have not done so already, then I recommend downloading and reading the CAA Safety Sense Leaflet No 21 on Ditching from the CAA. It covers allot of what is being discussed here and more on the actual recommendations for "landing" on water!
IO540:
Your maths wrt fuel are correct, but I assume you may get another few seconds out of the fact that the fuel tanks dont fill all the cavities in the wings, so there may be a short delay while they take on water? However personally, I think its another good reason to fly low wing a/c, preferably with retractable u/c
Finally a question for me to whitingiom:
you mention "aquapacs" - I assume these are fully waterproof bags? Could you tell us if that’s true and where they can be obtained from. I have been on the look out for something like that, but failed to find anything of any quality
Interesting question wrt costs. Here is my compromise given I cross the channel a little less frequently than you, but in hired a/c:
I have always found either the hirer, or someone on the airfield is willing to lend/ hire me a liferaft - so I have never seen the need to buy one myself.
I have however bought a cheap 121.5 EPRB (approx £150). As my sea crossings are shortish channel routes, my view is that normally I'll get a mayday call out on the way down with an approx position (& I have a transceiver anyway). Then (after surviving the splash etc)the important thing is that a SAR helicopter can home in quickly. So I'm happy for it just to have 121.5 as I understand they are not going to be getting rid of the 121.5 homing on SAR helicopters in the near future.
Its also useful if you have the misfortune to go down in remote mountains, as was written up by the AAIB in the last year or so I think.
To all:
If you have not done so already, then I recommend downloading and reading the CAA Safety Sense Leaflet No 21 on Ditching from the CAA. It covers allot of what is being discussed here and more on the actual recommendations for "landing" on water!
IO540:
Your maths wrt fuel are correct, but I assume you may get another few seconds out of the fact that the fuel tanks dont fill all the cavities in the wings, so there may be a short delay while they take on water? However personally, I think its another good reason to fly low wing a/c, preferably with retractable u/c
Finally a question for me to whitingiom:
you mention "aquapacs" - I assume these are fully waterproof bags? Could you tell us if that’s true and where they can be obtained from. I have been on the look out for something like that, but failed to find anything of any quality
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www.aquapac.net
www.aquapac.net
Hope that's useful.... I have them for my mobile phone, GPS & VHF handheld.
You can get them in all shapes and sizes.
I also have a waterproof grab bag for dry clothes, chocolate, drink etc.
Hope that's useful.... I have them for my mobile phone, GPS & VHF handheld.
You can get them in all shapes and sizes.
I also have a waterproof grab bag for dry clothes, chocolate, drink etc.