What would make you choose one airfield/flyingschool over another?
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I think you only need to look at the yachting market to realise what could be done in GA. Its the same kind of people who sail as who fly. The average boat costs as much as or more than a plane. Marina fees are usually more than hangarage. The big marina operators have come in in the last 20 years or so, run the marinas like proper businesses and invested; and people are willing to pay for the product these guys provide.
Sunsail is one of the biggest sailing holiday providers - they provide new boats, good locations, good staff and they are successful as a result. And best of all, the punters buy the boats for them. GA schools could do this.
Sunsail is one of the biggest sailing holiday providers - they provide new boats, good locations, good staff and they are successful as a result. And best of all, the punters buy the boats for them. GA schools could do this.
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This is a pretty darn interesting thread if I may so, I've recently got my PPL and flew at 2 different clubs with a bit of break in between (had to give up for a bit).
The first club had a great social atmosphere but I must have ended up flying with 8 different instructors, a couple of whom were complete tools. The a/c were dogs of the knackered variety apart from a new Katana, but you could never book it as every man and his dog wanted to fly it! Plus no groundschool whatsoever.
When I resumed flying, I was determined not to repeat the experience, so I had a long chat with the CFI of the new club before committing. Basically my new club has had it's fair share of problems and it's fair to say the a/c are not in the first flush of youth but the instructors (despite being hour-building budding airline types) are excellent, the CFI was a great chap and his groundschool was superb (he's recently left and will be sadly missed). These factors counted for a lot and they don't want to see the back of you when you've passed, having some great packages to keep you flying.
If I were to start the dream flying club, it would be:
New or late a/c coupled some older but well maintained types for slightly cheaper flying for those hour building types
Salaried instructors coupled with flight pay to get a better calibre and engender slightly more loyalty.
Excellent classroom facilities for groundschool, plus some good groundschool instructors, coupled with good audio visual and CBT facilities
Large well equipped briefing rooms
On-line booking of a/c plus on-line availability displays
Bar!
Flyouts, trips etc
Fit female instructors! (really helped me pass
)
The first club had a great social atmosphere but I must have ended up flying with 8 different instructors, a couple of whom were complete tools. The a/c were dogs of the knackered variety apart from a new Katana, but you could never book it as every man and his dog wanted to fly it! Plus no groundschool whatsoever.
When I resumed flying, I was determined not to repeat the experience, so I had a long chat with the CFI of the new club before committing. Basically my new club has had it's fair share of problems and it's fair to say the a/c are not in the first flush of youth but the instructors (despite being hour-building budding airline types) are excellent, the CFI was a great chap and his groundschool was superb (he's recently left and will be sadly missed). These factors counted for a lot and they don't want to see the back of you when you've passed, having some great packages to keep you flying.
If I were to start the dream flying club, it would be:
New or late a/c coupled some older but well maintained types for slightly cheaper flying for those hour building types
Salaried instructors coupled with flight pay to get a better calibre and engender slightly more loyalty.
Excellent classroom facilities for groundschool, plus some good groundschool instructors, coupled with good audio visual and CBT facilities
Large well equipped briefing rooms
On-line booking of a/c plus on-line availability displays
Bar!
Flyouts, trips etc
Fit female instructors! (really helped me pass
)
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Having read the replies so far, it's made me think about dusting off my plans. Just have to knock the price down and try and get some start up capital from somewhere. Easy!!!
It's all very well saying what everybody wants from a school, but is anybody prepared to put their money where their mouth is? If you've got any sense, then probably not, but if you've got a spare million or 2 getting in the way then I'm all ears!
It's all very well saying what everybody wants from a school, but is anybody prepared to put their money where their mouth is? If you've got any sense, then probably not, but if you've got a spare million or 2 getting in the way then I'm all ears!
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Aim Far
I don’t think sailing compares; the profile of the individual is different. Sailing is usually a team sport (though you can sail a dinghy or a £1M gin palace on your own if you want to) which makes it an all-or-nothing all-weekend activity which excludes most other weekend hobbies. It is also usually dead slow so it takes for ever to get anywhere, making it nearly useless for business travel. I know of a few marinas where the boats are knackered enough to compare with GA but generally an awfully lot more money gets spent in sailing than in flying. It’s an interesting comparison though; advertising to attract the people who spend big money on sailing might work.
VFR800
I don’t think new planes should cost more per hour than knackered old ones. With new, you get a warranty, plus pretty low costs for some years afterwards. You can still get a £200k dog which incurs a high avionics failure rate but if you have several on a fleet, that would average out. And if it’s too bad you sue the dealer – with an old plane with a major defect you just have to write the cheque or the plane is worth scrap.
Say again s l o w l y
500k should do it, or a lot less if you can finance the planes.
I don’t think sailing compares; the profile of the individual is different. Sailing is usually a team sport (though you can sail a dinghy or a £1M gin palace on your own if you want to) which makes it an all-or-nothing all-weekend activity which excludes most other weekend hobbies. It is also usually dead slow so it takes for ever to get anywhere, making it nearly useless for business travel. I know of a few marinas where the boats are knackered enough to compare with GA but generally an awfully lot more money gets spent in sailing than in flying. It’s an interesting comparison though; advertising to attract the people who spend big money on sailing might work.
VFR800
I don’t think new planes should cost more per hour than knackered old ones. With new, you get a warranty, plus pretty low costs for some years afterwards. You can still get a £200k dog which incurs a high avionics failure rate but if you have several on a fleet, that would average out. And if it’s too bad you sue the dealer – with an old plane with a major defect you just have to write the cheque or the plane is worth scrap.
Say again s l o w l y
500k should do it, or a lot less if you can finance the planes.
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Around 500K is about right, but I would always like a bit more if possible.
Unfortunately the current owner has a grossly inflated view of the value of the business, since it involves the leasehold (worthless to be honest) of the airfield and maintenance too.(Again not worth much with one engineer and very few facilities.)
It became especially difficult to raise capital since the books were 'interesting' to say the least! I knew how much was coming in and going out, but lets just say that the profit didn't match my expectations!! Trying to get money out of the City with worthless bits of paper and on my say so was an interesting experience!
I'm waiting for the need to sell to become more pressing and then we'll see what may happen.
I think the sailing analogy is actually pretty accurate, but since yachts are treated like second homes, people are more willing to spend vast sums on them. Difficult to sleep a family in a 172. They are more likely to be a Dad's toy rather than something for the whole family.
However people who are able to afford yachts etc. are exactly the type of punter you want to attract. Having been brought up around Boats and sailing. Owning a yacht really is like standing in a shower and ripping up £50 notes, a bit like owning an a/c really! Chandleries (or Swindleries as they are better known) make places like Transair seem like Matalans!
If you can attract these people, you do need to have a club house that looks at least a bit clean and servicable, rather than the knackered portacabins that seem to litter the airfields of the U.K.
Unfortunately the current owner has a grossly inflated view of the value of the business, since it involves the leasehold (worthless to be honest) of the airfield and maintenance too.(Again not worth much with one engineer and very few facilities.)
It became especially difficult to raise capital since the books were 'interesting' to say the least! I knew how much was coming in and going out, but lets just say that the profit didn't match my expectations!! Trying to get money out of the City with worthless bits of paper and on my say so was an interesting experience!
I'm waiting for the need to sell to become more pressing and then we'll see what may happen.
I think the sailing analogy is actually pretty accurate, but since yachts are treated like second homes, people are more willing to spend vast sums on them. Difficult to sleep a family in a 172. They are more likely to be a Dad's toy rather than something for the whole family.
However people who are able to afford yachts etc. are exactly the type of punter you want to attract. Having been brought up around Boats and sailing. Owning a yacht really is like standing in a shower and ripping up £50 notes, a bit like owning an a/c really! Chandleries (or Swindleries as they are better known) make places like Transair seem like Matalans!
If you can attract these people, you do need to have a club house that looks at least a bit clean and servicable, rather than the knackered portacabins that seem to litter the airfields of the U.K.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 8th Jan 2004 at 07:25.
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Hmm the sailing analogy is an interesting one, like Say Again I too spent much of my early years playing with boats.
I'm not sure however, that it does directly correlate. If you take the average 34ft cruiser-racer you'll have one owner and another 5 or 6 bods to help him or her race it (even when crusing there be the owner plus three or four people on the boat who don't own it) so for the vast majority of people sailing boats the cost is mostly kit - not cheap... doubt you'd get much change from 1K if you had all the singing and dancing foul weather gear, thermals and what not - and beer. Granted the the owner will be busy in the shower tearing up £50 notes but for the remainder the cost is not that massive. I recall a serious race boat I sailed which had an owner new to the sport who was told "look mate your job is to sit at the back, sign cheques and collect trophies so keep quiet and don't touch ANYTHING". Which must be a bit galling when you already shelled out well over £250K and will probably lay out another £100K before the year is out (this was the early 80s).
Another interesting comparision would be to examine the number of aircraft that actually fly on a given airfield - if you take the average marina about 80-90% of the boats never move from one month to the next. It is not uncommon for a boat to actually go anywhere only once or twice during it's ownership - the rest of time it's somewhere nice for Aunt Fanny to come to tea.
I suspect that for privately owned aircraft, utilisation rates are also pretty low of course not everybody can or wants to go flying all the time (I know weird eh...you know there are even some poor souls who don't even like flying).
I think that much of this comes from the reasons why people take up flying (or sailing). In the first place, there is an image thing it's cool to be a pilot (or flash to have a boat), then there is the challenge of learning new skills. And once these hurdles have been overcome then there is a void the reality of looking after an aircraft (or 3 o'clock in the morning on a channel crossing when it's raining horozontally and the wind is on the nose and you've got at least another 15 hours to go)
Unless of course you actually just enjoy the sensation of flight (or sailing) this type of thing will lead to discontent and eventually dropping the activity. I'm not sure how much of this is to do with the smartness of the clubhouse or aircraft - although who wouldn't prefer to fly a newer well turned out aircraft? More to the point of the thread would punters, in sufficient numbers, be willing to part with the additional ackers that such a club/school require? I'm not sure that they would.
I'm not sure however, that it does directly correlate. If you take the average 34ft cruiser-racer you'll have one owner and another 5 or 6 bods to help him or her race it (even when crusing there be the owner plus three or four people on the boat who don't own it) so for the vast majority of people sailing boats the cost is mostly kit - not cheap... doubt you'd get much change from 1K if you had all the singing and dancing foul weather gear, thermals and what not - and beer. Granted the the owner will be busy in the shower tearing up £50 notes but for the remainder the cost is not that massive. I recall a serious race boat I sailed which had an owner new to the sport who was told "look mate your job is to sit at the back, sign cheques and collect trophies so keep quiet and don't touch ANYTHING". Which must be a bit galling when you already shelled out well over £250K and will probably lay out another £100K before the year is out (this was the early 80s).
Another interesting comparision would be to examine the number of aircraft that actually fly on a given airfield - if you take the average marina about 80-90% of the boats never move from one month to the next. It is not uncommon for a boat to actually go anywhere only once or twice during it's ownership - the rest of time it's somewhere nice for Aunt Fanny to come to tea.
I suspect that for privately owned aircraft, utilisation rates are also pretty low of course not everybody can or wants to go flying all the time (I know weird eh...you know there are even some poor souls who don't even like flying).
I think that much of this comes from the reasons why people take up flying (or sailing). In the first place, there is an image thing it's cool to be a pilot (or flash to have a boat), then there is the challenge of learning new skills. And once these hurdles have been overcome then there is a void the reality of looking after an aircraft (or 3 o'clock in the morning on a channel crossing when it's raining horozontally and the wind is on the nose and you've got at least another 15 hours to go)
Unless of course you actually just enjoy the sensation of flight (or sailing) this type of thing will lead to discontent and eventually dropping the activity. I'm not sure how much of this is to do with the smartness of the clubhouse or aircraft - although who wouldn't prefer to fly a newer well turned out aircraft? More to the point of the thread would punters, in sufficient numbers, be willing to part with the additional ackers that such a club/school require? I'm not sure that they would.
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What would I want? Aircraft availability.
I know, you're all going to say 'buy a share', but that can only be justified if the hours match the cost. Someone speculated somewhere that the break-even is around 50 hours per annum: less than that, then rent. I probably fall into that category, thus I'm a renter. Who from? Currently from the school I got my PPL through (particularly as I'm very low hours). But even if I get a couple of hundred hours under my belt in the next few years, I'll still probably be renting - and I only know of schools who rent out.
Am I wrong here? I need to visit another airfield to get a feel of what is available (Blackbusche, Popham both come to mind, as they're both within catchment distance)
As a renter now, I get pushed to the bottom of the pile, as the school obviously makes a better deal with students, and I'm already beginning to battle to get air time (ignoring the awful weather at the moment). Is this why there is such a huge dropout rate? No aircraft to fly in!
I'll crawl back in now....
I know, you're all going to say 'buy a share', but that can only be justified if the hours match the cost. Someone speculated somewhere that the break-even is around 50 hours per annum: less than that, then rent. I probably fall into that category, thus I'm a renter. Who from? Currently from the school I got my PPL through (particularly as I'm very low hours). But even if I get a couple of hundred hours under my belt in the next few years, I'll still probably be renting - and I only know of schools who rent out.
Am I wrong here? I need to visit another airfield to get a feel of what is available (Blackbusche, Popham both come to mind, as they're both within catchment distance)
As a renter now, I get pushed to the bottom of the pile, as the school obviously makes a better deal with students, and I'm already beginning to battle to get air time (ignoring the awful weather at the moment). Is this why there is such a huge dropout rate? No aircraft to fly in!
I'll crawl back in now....
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Ace Rimmer
I think the lack of motivation you describe (all too common) is a consequence of the type of people who are being attracted to GA at present.
Most of those who turn up to do a PPL are doing it as a personal challenge and they don't have much money, so after the PPL the challenge is gone and most of them pack it in. Quite a few teenagers are spending a birthday/xmas present and nearly all of those will drop out too.
On top of that, the PPL nav syllabus is really basic and anyone with enough intelligence to do the PPL exams will realise (usually quietly, manifested by lack of confidence) how hard it is going to be to fly long routes. But it is the longer routes which involve seeing places you can't easily drive to, plus utility like business trips, which keep people flying long-term.
They will also realise most of the planes on offer are junk, which most of their friends won't be seen dead in.
In fact I am sure that the reason the PPL syllabus is the way it is (WW2 navigation and the stupid circular slide rule are just 2 examples) is because most PPLs drop out quickly. Presently only a few % of PPLs are still flying after a few years. If that figure went up to say 25% (is that so hard to do??) there would be real pressure to modernise things. If you doubt this, ask yourself what would happen if you got 100 fresh PPLs to fly a 200nm x/c route in 5km vis; how many would get there, perhaps even alive? If driver training was this bad, there would be real pressure to change it because there would be so many new-driver deaths.
The whole PPL training system manages to hang in there BECAUSE MOST PACK IT IN ANYWAY.
If one attracted higher quality customers who can easily afford it, and there were decent planes to fly afterwards, one would not have the ridiculous dropout rate. Flying itself is a damn good hobby for modern people, especially if you get an IMC Rating.
Nothing in market research is going be a certainty but I've come across enough well-off people who would learn if the scene was not decrepit as it is.
So I think one could set up a successful upmarket flying school/club, in the right location.
Nothing will happen nationally, because the moment anyone mentions modernisation they get jumped on by the very large crowd of antique aircraft owners, the crowd of people who operate knackered C150s on pennies, the microlight crowd - they are all afraid of being priced out of their hobby. In reality these people (unless they fly from their own freehold farm strip on which they drive the lawn mower) are being subsidised by the PPL trainee punter who dumps £500 in landing/T&G fees at the airfield, another £6000 at the school, and then conveniently vanishes.
One has to visit a few of the CAA-run safety meetings and similar events to see just how hopeless the national situation is, and how little pressure there is from both the bottom and from the top to change anything.
Any suggestion re modernisation is jumped on by the ageing traditionalists who dominate these things. Just mention GPS in one of these meetings and see the response. It's like walking into a catholic church and shout out that virgin mary got pregnant by sleeping around. I suspect they dominate the CAA GA department too, despite the publicity that all of them "have a PPL".
I've said enough
I think the lack of motivation you describe (all too common) is a consequence of the type of people who are being attracted to GA at present.
Most of those who turn up to do a PPL are doing it as a personal challenge and they don't have much money, so after the PPL the challenge is gone and most of them pack it in. Quite a few teenagers are spending a birthday/xmas present and nearly all of those will drop out too.
On top of that, the PPL nav syllabus is really basic and anyone with enough intelligence to do the PPL exams will realise (usually quietly, manifested by lack of confidence) how hard it is going to be to fly long routes. But it is the longer routes which involve seeing places you can't easily drive to, plus utility like business trips, which keep people flying long-term.
They will also realise most of the planes on offer are junk, which most of their friends won't be seen dead in.
In fact I am sure that the reason the PPL syllabus is the way it is (WW2 navigation and the stupid circular slide rule are just 2 examples) is because most PPLs drop out quickly. Presently only a few % of PPLs are still flying after a few years. If that figure went up to say 25% (is that so hard to do??) there would be real pressure to modernise things. If you doubt this, ask yourself what would happen if you got 100 fresh PPLs to fly a 200nm x/c route in 5km vis; how many would get there, perhaps even alive? If driver training was this bad, there would be real pressure to change it because there would be so many new-driver deaths.
The whole PPL training system manages to hang in there BECAUSE MOST PACK IT IN ANYWAY.
If one attracted higher quality customers who can easily afford it, and there were decent planes to fly afterwards, one would not have the ridiculous dropout rate. Flying itself is a damn good hobby for modern people, especially if you get an IMC Rating.
Nothing in market research is going be a certainty but I've come across enough well-off people who would learn if the scene was not decrepit as it is.
So I think one could set up a successful upmarket flying school/club, in the right location.
Nothing will happen nationally, because the moment anyone mentions modernisation they get jumped on by the very large crowd of antique aircraft owners, the crowd of people who operate knackered C150s on pennies, the microlight crowd - they are all afraid of being priced out of their hobby. In reality these people (unless they fly from their own freehold farm strip on which they drive the lawn mower) are being subsidised by the PPL trainee punter who dumps £500 in landing/T&G fees at the airfield, another £6000 at the school, and then conveniently vanishes.
One has to visit a few of the CAA-run safety meetings and similar events to see just how hopeless the national situation is, and how little pressure there is from both the bottom and from the top to change anything.
Any suggestion re modernisation is jumped on by the ageing traditionalists who dominate these things. Just mention GPS in one of these meetings and see the response. It's like walking into a catholic church and shout out that virgin mary got pregnant by sleeping around. I suspect they dominate the CAA GA department too, despite the publicity that all of them "have a PPL".
I've said enough
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I saw some figures a while ago that showed that the average PPL will do less than 50hrs post licence issue. That is appalling. One of the main reasons is that after passing the test, most PPL's are either skint or have nothing to do since the vast majority of clubs don't understand that people need a reason to go flying and to do something interesting.
Flyouts are the minimum a club should organise, once a month go somewhere fun for the weekend, instructors would love it as they would do something different and there would be a reason for people to spend all that cash.
It must be very hard to justify spending hundreds of pounds at a time for what is essentially an individual past time. There must be alot of pressure on the 'home front' for many people.
With respect to newer a/c, when we got a couple of brand new machines a couple of years ago, we started to see a strange effect. The average hours flown to get a licence started to drop. Eventually we discovered that it may have to do with people feeling more comfortable in a newer machine. They weren't as nervous and therefore had more capacity for learning. I estimate that this actually offsets the slightly additional hourly cost. This is not something you can measure, butafter sitting next to people for a couple of thousand hours, you realise small things can make a big difference.
What do people consider to be the catchment area for a school, how far would you be prepared to travel? I reckon about an hour/50 miles maximum does this sound about right?
Flyouts are the minimum a club should organise, once a month go somewhere fun for the weekend, instructors would love it as they would do something different and there would be a reason for people to spend all that cash.
It must be very hard to justify spending hundreds of pounds at a time for what is essentially an individual past time. There must be alot of pressure on the 'home front' for many people.
With respect to newer a/c, when we got a couple of brand new machines a couple of years ago, we started to see a strange effect. The average hours flown to get a licence started to drop. Eventually we discovered that it may have to do with people feeling more comfortable in a newer machine. They weren't as nervous and therefore had more capacity for learning. I estimate that this actually offsets the slightly additional hourly cost. This is not something you can measure, butafter sitting next to people for a couple of thousand hours, you realise small things can make a big difference.
What do people consider to be the catchment area for a school, how far would you be prepared to travel? I reckon about an hour/50 miles maximum does this sound about right?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Ok, so let's set up a hypothetical school.
Our school will have 10 aircraft. 6 of these are old, knackered C172s. They have everything which is needed to pass a PPL and fly to PPL standards. They are well maintained, and safe, but if the ADF starts playing up we won't bother fixing it.
We also have 4 modern aircraft, let's say DA40s since they've been mentioned a few times. The DA40s are fully airways equipped, have dual GPS, two-axis auto-pilot, dual VOR/ADF with RMI and HSI.
Now, we'll offer four courses:
- Option 1: Basic PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £85/hr. All flying is on the C172.
- Option 2: DA40 PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £115/hr. All flying is on the DA40.
- Option 3: DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours. Price, £115.hr. All flying is on the DA40. After this course, you will have a PPL. Although you won't have any more qualifications than for the basic course, you will have had additional training in "real life" navigation, including some longer cross-countries, possibly cross-channel (depending where the school is located), how to use the GPS and the auto-pilot constructively.
- Option 4: C172/DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours, of which at least 10 will be on the DA40, learning to use the GPS, auto-pilot, RMI, HSI and so on, but the basic PPL syllabus will be taught on the C172. Price is £85/hr for the C172, £115/hr for the DA40.
Which course do you think will get the most bookings? Do you think that students would switch from one course to another as their knowledge and understanding of flying increases? (Let's not complicate things by introducing an IMC rating just yet.)
FFF
---------------
Our school will have 10 aircraft. 6 of these are old, knackered C172s. They have everything which is needed to pass a PPL and fly to PPL standards. They are well maintained, and safe, but if the ADF starts playing up we won't bother fixing it.
We also have 4 modern aircraft, let's say DA40s since they've been mentioned a few times. The DA40s are fully airways equipped, have dual GPS, two-axis auto-pilot, dual VOR/ADF with RMI and HSI.
Now, we'll offer four courses:
- Option 1: Basic PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £85/hr. All flying is on the C172.
- Option 2: DA40 PPL. Minimum time, 45 hours. Price, £115/hr. All flying is on the DA40.
- Option 3: DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours. Price, £115.hr. All flying is on the DA40. After this course, you will have a PPL. Although you won't have any more qualifications than for the basic course, you will have had additional training in "real life" navigation, including some longer cross-countries, possibly cross-channel (depending where the school is located), how to use the GPS and the auto-pilot constructively.
- Option 4: C172/DA40 PPL+. Minimum time, 55 hours, of which at least 10 will be on the DA40, learning to use the GPS, auto-pilot, RMI, HSI and so on, but the basic PPL syllabus will be taught on the C172. Price is £85/hr for the C172, £115/hr for the DA40.
Which course do you think will get the most bookings? Do you think that students would switch from one course to another as their knowledge and understanding of flying increases? (Let's not complicate things by introducing an IMC rating just yet.)
FFF
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I agree the correlation between sailing and flying is not exact but it is there.
Sailing is a team sport? Yes and no. Racing is a team sport. Cruising is usually man and wife. Sometimes kids if there are any, the occasional friends.
Sailing is one bod ripping up the £50s with the rest getting it free? Agreed - and this applies to racing as well as cruising. But when you last took a friend up flying as a passenger, did they pay?
People spend more money on boats than planes? Doubt it. You'll pick up a first cruiser - say a 2nd hand 30ft Beneteau cruiser for about £30-£40k. About the same as your first spamcan probably. And you'll spend more on maintaining the spamcan. What they really spend money on is the clothes from Cowes High Street but flyers can do that too!
I bought a boat to sail around on myself (weekends or day trips only) and have it as something fun to do with friends. The joy of cruising sailing is that it is a fun way to get somewhere. The reality is that it takes too long to get to the boat, too long to set up, too long to get anywhere in it so you miss the pub when you get there. Its an all day task and you eventually get cold even on a sunny day. Your crew (and the skipper for that matter) usually get bored after a while. Crews are harder to find that you'd think, even for racers. That's why the boats sit around in the marinas all the time.
Because what crews and skippers really want is a means of travel that is fun in itself but gets them where they want to be. Something with a maximum period of involvement of 2 or 3 hours (pub time doesn't count). Something they can do of an afternoon and still be home in time to go out in the evening. Flying gives you that.
Anyway, the point I was really trying to make is that there are lessons to be learnt from sailing. Flying schools don't need to buy their own planes - offer an ownership scheme like sunsail and the punters will buy them for you. I've never really understood why clubs don't take more of a financial interest in the private share aircraft that inhabit their fields; that's a massive market segment they are not involved in. Marinas have ramped up prices and people still pay. The learn to sail business does well because it is well organised. There is a well developed rental scene with decent boats. The sailing holiday business is huge; where are the adverts for flying holidays?
Sailing is a team sport? Yes and no. Racing is a team sport. Cruising is usually man and wife. Sometimes kids if there are any, the occasional friends.
Sailing is one bod ripping up the £50s with the rest getting it free? Agreed - and this applies to racing as well as cruising. But when you last took a friend up flying as a passenger, did they pay?
People spend more money on boats than planes? Doubt it. You'll pick up a first cruiser - say a 2nd hand 30ft Beneteau cruiser for about £30-£40k. About the same as your first spamcan probably. And you'll spend more on maintaining the spamcan. What they really spend money on is the clothes from Cowes High Street but flyers can do that too!
I bought a boat to sail around on myself (weekends or day trips only) and have it as something fun to do with friends. The joy of cruising sailing is that it is a fun way to get somewhere. The reality is that it takes too long to get to the boat, too long to set up, too long to get anywhere in it so you miss the pub when you get there. Its an all day task and you eventually get cold even on a sunny day. Your crew (and the skipper for that matter) usually get bored after a while. Crews are harder to find that you'd think, even for racers. That's why the boats sit around in the marinas all the time.
Because what crews and skippers really want is a means of travel that is fun in itself but gets them where they want to be. Something with a maximum period of involvement of 2 or 3 hours (pub time doesn't count). Something they can do of an afternoon and still be home in time to go out in the evening. Flying gives you that.
Anyway, the point I was really trying to make is that there are lessons to be learnt from sailing. Flying schools don't need to buy their own planes - offer an ownership scheme like sunsail and the punters will buy them for you. I've never really understood why clubs don't take more of a financial interest in the private share aircraft that inhabit their fields; that's a massive market segment they are not involved in. Marinas have ramped up prices and people still pay. The learn to sail business does well because it is well organised. There is a well developed rental scene with decent boats. The sailing holiday business is huge; where are the adverts for flying holidays?
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It will end up being the DA40's only. At my club despite the fact there is a difference of £18/hr between the new machines and the old cessnas, most people learning are on the new machines. The Cessnas are really only used for ppl hire, usually by PPL's who've held licences for years.
New machines 7-800 Hrs per year (Virtually all training).
Cessna's 3-400 Hrs per year (Virtually all Self fly hire).
One of the reasons more people don't fly the newer machines for SFH is that they cannot book them unless they try at least a month ahead. Every slot is filled in these, whereas in the Cessnas you could get a slot any day of the week you fancy.
New machines 7-800 Hrs per year (Virtually all training).
Cessna's 3-400 Hrs per year (Virtually all Self fly hire).
One of the reasons more people don't fly the newer machines for SFH is that they cannot book them unless they try at least a month ahead. Every slot is filled in these, whereas in the Cessnas you could get a slot any day of the week you fancy.
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SAS
The “home front” pressure one can’t do much about. Sadly, this is an activity mainly for those who have a decent income and who have control of what it gets spent on. Unless you get a spouse who also likes flying; rare but possible… With a family, one needs a really big income, say £60k+, to be flying reasonably frequently – unless again you have a very supportive wife who shares the hobby rather than insisting that she spends an equivalent amount on something for herself
I would regard 30 mins (say 20 miles) as the absolute max to drive.
FFF
Forget all old planes. They will do the business no good at all. Yes they are adequate for PPL training but they are not acceptable to a quality customer.
As we have now discarded the spamcans that leaves Options 2 and 3 only. Actually the price is pretty good; I used to pay £120/hr inc VAT for a really knackered PA28-181 self fly hire with no working nav instruments.
Why not the IMC Rating? It’s essential for serious UK touring. If you don’t have it, there are likely to be periods of 2-3 months in the winter when you won’t fly. Even in the summer it is often IMC-like, with haze and no horizon to speak of.
Air Far
I think a school selling shares in its fleet would be a great scheme. That way, when it has sold off a complete plane, in say 10 shares, it can buy a brand new one for little money.
The “home front” pressure one can’t do much about. Sadly, this is an activity mainly for those who have a decent income and who have control of what it gets spent on. Unless you get a spouse who also likes flying; rare but possible… With a family, one needs a really big income, say £60k+, to be flying reasonably frequently – unless again you have a very supportive wife who shares the hobby rather than insisting that she spends an equivalent amount on something for herself
I would regard 30 mins (say 20 miles) as the absolute max to drive.
FFF
Forget all old planes. They will do the business no good at all. Yes they are adequate for PPL training but they are not acceptable to a quality customer.
As we have now discarded the spamcans
that leaves Options 2 and 3 only. Actually the price is pretty good; I used to pay £120/hr inc VAT for a really knackered PA28-181 self fly hire with no working nav instruments.Why not the IMC Rating? It’s essential for serious UK touring. If you don’t have it, there are likely to be periods of 2-3 months in the winter when you won’t fly. Even in the summer it is often IMC-like, with haze and no horizon to speak of.
Air Far
I think a school selling shares in its fleet would be a great scheme. That way, when it has sold off a complete plane, in say 10 shares, it can buy a brand new one for little money.
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Are you lot seriously suggesting that the way forward for GA in this country is to kick out the plebs and make it a playground for the higher-rate taxpayer to pose in a DA40?!? 
I'm lucky enough to earn enough to still be able to fly in your world, but I fly an old taildragger out of choice. It is a joy to fly, has 100 times the character of a spamcan and offers unbeatable value for money. I'm obviously not a quality customer though
Forget all old planes. They will do the business no good at all. Yes they are adequate for PPL training but they are not acceptable to a quality customer.
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No definately not. But it seems to me that we need a push to allow more moneyed types to get into this with terms they are willing to accept.
For the business model I'm thinking about, then people with lots of cash are going to be important, but I don't see how this can be bad for the industry as a whole. If people are prepared to pay more for better machines, then existing operators will have to buck up their ideas or drop their prices even more to compete. This can be nothing but good for the punter.
How much would a DA40 cost to run per Hr? With the diesels I would assume that it would be very reasonable (in a relative sense obviously!)
Why are the "plebs" (I'm definately one of them!) still flying expensive club a/c anyway? Get into the PFA side. Lots of fun and a damn sight cheaper. I've got a lot of time for the PFA and people who fly those sort of machines, they seem to be to be real enthusiasts of GA flying. Give me a cub and a short field and I'm happy for ages!
For the business model I'm thinking about, then people with lots of cash are going to be important, but I don't see how this can be bad for the industry as a whole. If people are prepared to pay more for better machines, then existing operators will have to buck up their ideas or drop their prices even more to compete. This can be nothing but good for the punter.
How much would a DA40 cost to run per Hr? With the diesels I would assume that it would be very reasonable (in a relative sense obviously!)
Why are the "plebs" (I'm definately one of them!) still flying expensive club a/c anyway? Get into the PFA side. Lots of fun and a damn sight cheaper. I've got a lot of time for the PFA and people who fly those sort of machines, they seem to be to be real enthusiasts of GA flying. Give me a cub and a short field and I'm happy for ages!
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Nobody is saying one should kick out the taildraggers etc.
However in activities in our lives there is a cross subsidy. Let's say you have a 1920 Bugatti which you have restored, and take it out for a drive on some sunny Sundays each year. In the tax on the fuel you use, you are not paying your fair share of what it cost to build and maintain the road. You are getting subsidised by the frequent users. This subsidy is hidden in the public finance system, but that's not so in GA.
Everybody who wants to fly antique types, and old decrepit types, should be allowed to do so (even looking at it purely economically, there is no harm in it) but the ENTIRE scene is going to sink, probably within 20 years, unless there is a very big revival, with a lot of new machines and new attitudes, to match the higher expectations of present day people relative to the people of say 1970.
But as I have mentioned, I don't think this is going to happen because of the entrenched attitudes throughout GA. No individual and no business in GA can bring it about, either.
What IS possible, I think, is what we are talking about here: to make a success of a flying school/club which is aimed squarely at discerning and well funded customers (and well funded customers are usually discerning).
Nobody is saying one should kick out the taildraggers etc.
However in activities in our lives there is a cross subsidy. Let's say you have a 1920 Bugatti which you have restored, and take it out for a drive on some sunny Sundays each year. In the tax on the fuel you use, you are not paying your fair share of what it cost to build and maintain the road. You are getting subsidised by the frequent users. This subsidy is hidden in the public finance system, but that's not so in GA.
Everybody who wants to fly antique types, and old decrepit types, should be allowed to do so (even looking at it purely economically, there is no harm in it) but the ENTIRE scene is going to sink, probably within 20 years, unless there is a very big revival, with a lot of new machines and new attitudes, to match the higher expectations of present day people relative to the people of say 1970.
But as I have mentioned, I don't think this is going to happen because of the entrenched attitudes throughout GA. No individual and no business in GA can bring it about, either.
What IS possible, I think, is what we are talking about here: to make a success of a flying school/club which is aimed squarely at discerning and well funded customers (and well funded customers are usually discerning).
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Fascinating thread to which I can make no constructive contribution, except to say that having had three trial lessons at three different establishments I went for the one where I felt the chemistry between me and my prospective flying instructor was right – ignoring available aircraft, travelling time, price and the rest. In the event I did not regret my decision despite having opted for the most expensive establishment.
As for FFF’s option 3 and/or 4 I think I might perhaps include a Night qualification, just to keep the interest alive.
I am sorry to say that equating quality people with well-off people makes me wince, but that’s just me and never mind. Interesting contributions all round.
As for FFF’s option 3 and/or 4 I think I might perhaps include a Night qualification, just to keep the interest alive.
I am sorry to say that equating quality people with well-off people makes me wince, but that’s just me and never mind. Interesting contributions all round.
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Pianorak, that is exactly the sort of contribution that is important. Everybody should be able to have a say and an opinion, whether people agree is a different matterbut that's the beauty of Pprune.
That chemistry is I feel probably the most important aspect of any school. No matter how cheap or good the a/c why would you go somewhere unfriendly that treats you like cr*p?
I'm not happy about equating money with how 'good' a person is. I know plenty of rich t*ssers and loads of top skint people. But in a business sense the richer they are, the better they are for your profits if you ca attract them and keep them.
I remeber reading somewhere about a certain well known supermarket that to attract new customers cost them about 5X what keeping an existing customer costs, so flying schools are really quite daft if they let PPL's go after they get a licence, from a purely financial perspective, look after your customers, they ARE your business.
That chemistry is I feel probably the most important aspect of any school. No matter how cheap or good the a/c why would you go somewhere unfriendly that treats you like cr*p?
I'm not happy about equating money with how 'good' a person is. I know plenty of rich t*ssers and loads of top skint people. But in a business sense the richer they are, the better they are for your profits if you ca attract them and keep them.
I remeber reading somewhere about a certain well known supermarket that to attract new customers cost them about 5X what keeping an existing customer costs, so flying schools are really quite daft if they let PPL's go after they get a licence, from a purely financial perspective, look after your customers, they ARE your business.
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Pianorak
Don't take it personally, it's purely business terminology
A "quality customer" is simply one who buys the product/service, pays on time, does not complain, and perhaps becomes a loyal customer in the long term.
It is nothing to do with someone's character. You can have a very good customer who is a real s**t personally.
The reality is that nowadays lots of people have lots of money. I don't think this fact has sunk in yet in the UK because anyone with money and some brains keeps their head low, and those with money and no brains might exhibit some unattractive traits
The average male salary, c. £20k, would probably make you jump. Most people hanging around GA earn well below the UK average salary.
Don't take it personally, it's purely business terminology
A "quality customer" is simply one who buys the product/service, pays on time, does not complain, and perhaps becomes a loyal customer in the long term.
It is nothing to do with someone's character. You can have a very good customer who is a real s**t personally.
The reality is that nowadays lots of people have lots of money. I don't think this fact has sunk in yet in the UK because anyone with money and some brains keeps their head low, and those with money and no brains might exhibit some unattractive traits
The average male salary, c. £20k, would probably make you jump. Most people hanging around GA earn well below the UK average salary.
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Another 2p worth
The punters are going to find better chemistry with an instructor who is earning a decent wage, working at a decent school, flying decent planes and who is generally content with his/her lot than one who is working out from a portakabin outfit where margins are so tight that cost drives all decisions.
And no-one has suggested kicking anyone out, (whether poor pleb, rich tosser, top bloke, total ****!). I think all the suggestions have been aimed at expanding the numbers, expanding the market. That benefits everyone.
The punters are going to find better chemistry with an instructor who is earning a decent wage, working at a decent school, flying decent planes and who is generally content with his/her lot than one who is working out from a portakabin outfit where margins are so tight that cost drives all decisions.
And no-one has suggested kicking anyone out, (whether poor pleb, rich tosser, top bloke, total ****!). I think all the suggestions have been aimed at expanding the numbers, expanding the market. That benefits everyone.