Tailwheel conversion
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Tailwheel conversion
Recently, my syndicate owned a/c was involved in a landing acccident, which has rendered it U/S for a few weeks at the least. Rather than sit around feeling sorry for myself, that I'm paying monthly fees, and can't go flying, I've decided to broaden my horizon. I did consider some areo's training, including some spinning, simply to improve my handling skills. However, I think I've decided to take some tailwheel differences training, as I've always wanted to fly something nostalgic, like a Moth.
Can has anyone give me an indication of how many hours it might take for the tail wheel conversion, (probably in a Cub), and then how many hours for a checkout in a Moth. I know we are all different, and what may take one person 5 hours may take another 10, but I'm just after a ball park idea. All my flying to date has been on Pipers or Robins.
Thanks in advance.
Can has anyone give me an indication of how many hours it might take for the tail wheel conversion, (probably in a Cub), and then how many hours for a checkout in a Moth. I know we are all different, and what may take one person 5 hours may take another 10, but I'm just after a ball park idea. All my flying to date has been on Pipers or Robins.
Thanks in advance.
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Good for you for deciding to learn to fly airplanes equipped with 'conventional' undercarriage. You will have fun, learn a lot, and open the door to interesting aircraft that otherwise would be inaccessible to you.
As you say, everyone is different; but I would say about 10 hours or less should see you solo in a Cub. For what it's worth, it took me five hours to go solo in a Citabria; I consider myself an 'average' pilot.
I haven't flown a Moth (yet), so can't help you on your second question.
As you say, everyone is different; but I would say about 10 hours or less should see you solo in a Cub. For what it's worth, it took me five hours to go solo in a Citabria; I consider myself an 'average' pilot.
I haven't flown a Moth (yet), so can't help you on your second question.
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The oft quoted 5 hour tailwheel conversion course is probably a reasonable amount of time to get a grasp of the basics of tailwheel flying, not that I'm an expert and in any way qualified to judge 
There are some good books you can read beforehand, such as Harvey S Plourde's "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot".
As for Tiger Moths, I had about 50 hours total time in tailwheel aircraft (J3 Cub and Chipmunk) when I first joined The Tiger Club and they bravely sent me solo for the first time in one of theirs after 1h 15m dual. On the Tiger Club website it says they recommend having at least 20hrs tailwheel experience before flying their Tiger Moths. I can thoroughly recommend them for tailwheel training if you're anywhere near the Headcorn neck of the woods.
That first 15m solo in a Tiger Moth is still one of the high points in my limited flying career
WF.
There are some good books you can read beforehand, such as Harvey S Plourde's "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot".
As for Tiger Moths, I had about 50 hours total time in tailwheel aircraft (J3 Cub and Chipmunk) when I first joined The Tiger Club and they bravely sent me solo for the first time in one of theirs after 1h 15m dual. On the Tiger Club website it says they recommend having at least 20hrs tailwheel experience before flying their Tiger Moths. I can thoroughly recommend them for tailwheel training if you're anywhere near the Headcorn neck of the woods.
That first 15m solo in a Tiger Moth is still one of the high points in my limited flying career
WF.
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Do it straight off in a Moth ... Cambridge Flying Group or the Tiger Club are the best known. It might take a couple of hours more in a Tigermoth rather than a Cub, but then there won't be a second check out for the Tiger!
Average pilot 5-10 hours.
IM
Average pilot 5-10 hours.
IM
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In my opinion as a tailwheel instructor on Tiger Moths, it will save you £££'s of money in the long run if you have a reasonable understanding of tailwheel principles before flying the Tiger Moth. Bashing around the circuit in an aeroplane that will cost you twice the going rate of a Cub is not recommended for the bank balance, or indeed very good for the aeroplane. Understand the basics and you will be well prepared for the Tiger Moth, or indeed any tailwheel aeroplane afterwards..
As Warped Factor says, after 20ish hours of Cub/Chipmunk etc, you won't have much of a problem converting to the Tiger. Lets face it, it's not that difficult, just different (and colder in winter
)! After all, its definately 1920s technology, and handles just like a 1920s aeroplane.
As for the '5hr tailwheel course', I have only ever sent a guy off solo in a Cub from scratch with less than 5 hrs on tailwheels once. He was a natural pilot, who took something like 1:30hrs and off he went. Swine!!
The '5hr tailwheel course' should be re-named the '5hr preparatory course', 'cos it only just scratches the surface for most nosewheel pilots
Warped Factor, we obviously know each other; I may have even sent you off solo!
As Warped Factor says, after 20ish hours of Cub/Chipmunk etc, you won't have much of a problem converting to the Tiger. Lets face it, it's not that difficult, just different (and colder in winter
)! After all, its definately 1920s technology, and handles just like a 1920s aeroplane.As for the '5hr tailwheel course', I have only ever sent a guy off solo in a Cub from scratch with less than 5 hrs on tailwheels once. He was a natural pilot, who took something like 1:30hrs and off he went. Swine!!
The '5hr tailwheel course' should be re-named the '5hr preparatory course', 'cos it only just scratches the surface for most nosewheel pilots
Warped Factor, we obviously know each other; I may have even sent you off solo!
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Hmmmmmmmm?
When I converted from gliders to power I went to the Cambridge Flying Group. Back then in the late 80's their Tigermoths cost less to fly than the C150's at places like Biggin Hill, Redhill ect, so unless they've suddenly shot up in comparison, they are worth checking out. I'm sure they're probably more expensive than a typical club type in the same area, but if you're from somewhere more expensive they are worth a drive. I'm surprised by Zlin's experience of most pilots taking well over 5 hrs to convert. I did it in less in the Tiger and I know of two or three friends who converted on Cubs ect and had no problems. These were mainly glider pilots though and I guess gliders are very much like taildraggers to fly, so I suppose that may have had an influence.
Whatever you do the conversion on I'm sure you'll have fun anyway so good luck
IM
When I converted from gliders to power I went to the Cambridge Flying Group. Back then in the late 80's their Tigermoths cost less to fly than the C150's at places like Biggin Hill, Redhill ect, so unless they've suddenly shot up in comparison, they are worth checking out. I'm sure they're probably more expensive than a typical club type in the same area, but if you're from somewhere more expensive they are worth a drive. I'm surprised by Zlin's experience of most pilots taking well over 5 hrs to convert. I did it in less in the Tiger and I know of two or three friends who converted on Cubs ect and had no problems. These were mainly glider pilots though and I guess gliders are very much like taildraggers to fly, so I suppose that may have had an influence.
Whatever you do the conversion on I'm sure you'll have fun anyway so good luck
IM
Z526
"tailwheel instructor on Tiger-Moths"? I suppose you have brakes as well....
"tailwheel instructor on Tiger-Moths"? I suppose you have brakes as well....
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Sycamore/Brian,
Real 'tailwheel' pilots dont need brakes...But I hear what you're saying. I hate the term taildragger
Shortstripper,
As I said, in my experience the magic '5 hr course' doesn't normally end in a stude flying off into the sunset solo, but that's maybe because we have higher standards, or the pilots we get coming along to us have bad habits from flying in a 'radio controlled' environment and relying on others to make decisions for them. Unfortunately, a lot of time is spent (wasted?) on basics such as how to trim an aeroplane, accurate speed control etc etc. Flying a new type relies very much on the basic skills, which sadly a lot of pilots seem to have forgotten..
Have a nice day
Real 'tailwheel' pilots dont need brakes...But I hear what you're saying. I hate the term taildragger
Shortstripper,
As I said, in my experience the magic '5 hr course' doesn't normally end in a stude flying off into the sunset solo, but that's maybe because we have higher standards, or the pilots we get coming along to us have bad habits from flying in a 'radio controlled' environment and relying on others to make decisions for them. Unfortunately, a lot of time is spent (wasted?) on basics such as how to trim an aeroplane, accurate speed control etc etc. Flying a new type relies very much on the basic skills, which sadly a lot of pilots seem to have forgotten..
Have a nice day
Last edited by Zlin526; 8th Nov 2003 at 06:23.
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If the idea is 'to have a sniff'; most schools with a tailwheel machine will do and so will the 5 hours.
The machines usually operated by these schools tend to be benign and the average pilot will manage to learn to pull off a decent 3 pointer in benign conditions in those 5 hours.
However if you want to become truly proficient in the art of mastering the tailwheel machinery in more challenging conditions and circumstances, make sure you go to a school with good instructors who are true tailwheel afficionados.
They are usually quite easy to spot by asking if they are happy to teach you wheelers as well as three pointers.
Whatever you do have fun!
FD
The machines usually operated by these schools tend to be benign and the average pilot will manage to learn to pull off a decent 3 pointer in benign conditions in those 5 hours.
However if you want to become truly proficient in the art of mastering the tailwheel machinery in more challenging conditions and circumstances, make sure you go to a school with good instructors who are true tailwheel afficionados.
They are usually quite easy to spot by asking if they are happy to teach you wheelers as well as three pointers.
Whatever you do have fun!
FD
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or the pilots we get coming along to us have bad habits from flying in a 'radio controlled' environment and relying on others to make decisions for them.
Not strictly relevant to this thread, but I think the above is a major and very worrying trend in flight training in the last decade or so. Many flying schools seem to see themselves as first level trainers for the air transport transport industry rather than the entry point to flying freedom.
Flying is one of the few real freedoms we can have in this highly-regulated world. It is certainly that freedom and the expectation that you make your own descisions that attracted me to it.
It beats me why so many of today's neophyte pilots are happy to forgo that in favour of having a man on the other end of a radio to tell them what to do. Is it because so many instructors are now themselves on the first rungs of the airline ladder, rather than the retired military or civil pilots who mostly made up the instructor strength in former years - at least in my experience - which may not have been typical?
But if my experience wasn't typical, why the recent increase in 'radio controlled' pilots who are reluctant to make their descisions and in so doing revel in the freedom of flight?
It is perhaps worth considering the old mantra re pilots and air traffic, especially in the 'uncontrolled' VFR environment I'm refering to:
"You're down there because I'm up here. NOT vice versa"
SSD
Not strictly relevant to this thread, but I think the above is a major and very worrying trend in flight training in the last decade or so. Many flying schools seem to see themselves as first level trainers for the air transport transport industry rather than the entry point to flying freedom.
Flying is one of the few real freedoms we can have in this highly-regulated world. It is certainly that freedom and the expectation that you make your own descisions that attracted me to it.
It beats me why so many of today's neophyte pilots are happy to forgo that in favour of having a man on the other end of a radio to tell them what to do. Is it because so many instructors are now themselves on the first rungs of the airline ladder, rather than the retired military or civil pilots who mostly made up the instructor strength in former years - at least in my experience - which may not have been typical?
But if my experience wasn't typical, why the recent increase in 'radio controlled' pilots who are reluctant to make their descisions and in so doing revel in the freedom of flight?
It is perhaps worth considering the old mantra re pilots and air traffic, especially in the 'uncontrolled' VFR environment I'm refering to:
"You're down there because I'm up here. NOT vice versa"
SSD
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With regard to the wheel landing issue.
If your instructor does not teach wheel landings, and make sure you are profficient doing them find another instructor.
And after you learn properly, go back and offer to teach the first one how to fly tailwheel airplanes.
Chuck
If your instructor does not teach wheel landings, and make sure you are profficient doing them find another instructor.
And after you learn properly, go back and offer to teach the first one how to fly tailwheel airplanes.
Chuck
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SSD,
I think pilots need to be able to do both, ie fly in both a radio environment and without it. Most newish pilots seem to be better at one than the other, often depending on where they learned to fly.
Actually, some drivers are the same. I'm amazed at how many people from big cities are scared of driving on the one-track mountain roads with sheer drops and few passing places that are normal where I live. Conversely, quite a lot of people in this area are nervous about driving in London or Birmingham.
These all require different skills and practice, and IMHO, one is no better than the other...although I personally prefer both driving and flying in the wilds of North Wales and similar areas - that's why I live here.
I think pilots need to be able to do both, ie fly in both a radio environment and without it. Most newish pilots seem to be better at one than the other, often depending on where they learned to fly.
Actually, some drivers are the same. I'm amazed at how many people from big cities are scared of driving on the one-track mountain roads with sheer drops and few passing places that are normal where I live. Conversely, quite a lot of people in this area are nervous about driving in London or Birmingham.
These all require different skills and practice, and IMHO, one is no better than the other...although I personally prefer both driving and flying in the wilds of North Wales and similar areas - that's why I live here.
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The '5hr tailwheel course' should be re-named the '5hr preparatory course', 'cos it only just scratches the surface for most nosewheel pilots
Moral: Don't be in such a hurry, and lighter and less powerful does not necessarily mean easire to control.
Its taken me another 6 hours to feel comfortable and go solo again.
Cambridge, if anyone's interested charges £100 per hour solo and £120 duel. Not bad.
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Zlin526 wrote:
That's always possible, want to admit to where you instruct and I'll let you know
I also think some a/c are better for learning in than others and in my own humble opinion the lower powered the better.
For me something like a 150hp Super Cub is not ideal for ab initio taildragger training because it gets off the ground too quickly. Of course it will bite if provoked, but you can get away with much more ham footedness than you would be able to in a much lower powered a/c.
If you can learn in something a bit less lively I'd go for that.
All just IMHO of course.
WF.
Warped Factor, we obviously know each other; I may have even sent you off solo!
I also think some a/c are better for learning in than others and in my own humble opinion the lower powered the better.
For me something like a 150hp Super Cub is not ideal for ab initio taildragger training because it gets off the ground too quickly. Of course it will bite if provoked, but you can get away with much more ham footedness than you would be able to in a much lower powered a/c.
If you can learn in something a bit less lively I'd go for that.
All just IMHO of course.
WF.
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Thanks all for your input. I have just called the Tiger Club, and the guy I spoke to was very helpfull and friendly. He suggested it would be cheaper to start off in the Cub, then progress to the Moth as some have posted here, but said I could go straight for the Moth if I prefered.
Apparently, the training is done by 'Check pilots', rather than instructors, so does this mean I'm officially a pax, and can't log the hours until an instructor has signed my logbook ?
I think my current plan is to go for a flight in one of their Moths first. If I like it as much as I think I will, do the initial training in the Cub, before progressing.
Thanks again all.
Apparently, the training is done by 'Check pilots', rather than instructors, so does this mean I'm officially a pax, and can't log the hours until an instructor has signed my logbook ?
I think my current plan is to go for a flight in one of their Moths first. If I like it as much as I think I will, do the initial training in the Cub, before progressing.
Thanks again all.
Not so N, but still FG
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You are correct in observing that you can't log the time spent flying with a check pilot who is not an instructor. As you probably know, you need to get your differences training signed off by an instructor, so would do at least one loggable p/ut trip before being certified to solo a tailwheel/tailskid aircraft. By the way, flying a low-powered Cub is a real pleasure in itself. Have fun.
Last edited by FNG; 10th Nov 2003 at 21:41.
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Hmmm........... very interested by what I've read on this thread so far - may I pass on my own experience?
Like the original poster I had only previously flown tricycle undercarriage, Robins and PA28's etc. all club aircraft.
Then I heard of a share for sale in a Jodel which I subsequently bought. I therefore needed differences training.
I asked at the club where I did my PPL course, and after much scratching of heads and consulting various publications they concluded that whilst legally, as I was licensed to fly single engine land planes I could technically just jump in and go, although clearly this would have been insane.
However they did conclude that differences training did NOT have to be undertaken by an instructor, although before flying solo I would have to undertake a check ride and have my log book signed by an instructor.
They simply suggested that I flew with other members of the syndicate until I felt comfortable with take off and landings on both grass and hard runways, then take the check ride.
This is exactly what I did, but I did log the time as P1/S, as technically the aircraft was under my control. Was this incorrect?
Then, after around five hours, I took the check ride and got signed off. The instructor made no comments about me logging the differences training as P1/S so I assumed it must be OK. (The instructor filled in my log book for the check ride himself and logged me as simply P1.)
From the short time I have been flying the Jodel, and talking to other tail wheel pilots I gather that the Jodel is one of the easier types to master, and there is no way I would assume I could fly other tail wheel aircraft competently without a lot more experience.
Our insurers have also imposed a higher excess for me on the policy until I have completed 10 hours on type.
Regards
Like the original poster I had only previously flown tricycle undercarriage, Robins and PA28's etc. all club aircraft.
Then I heard of a share for sale in a Jodel which I subsequently bought. I therefore needed differences training.
I asked at the club where I did my PPL course, and after much scratching of heads and consulting various publications they concluded that whilst legally, as I was licensed to fly single engine land planes I could technically just jump in and go, although clearly this would have been insane.
However they did conclude that differences training did NOT have to be undertaken by an instructor, although before flying solo I would have to undertake a check ride and have my log book signed by an instructor.
They simply suggested that I flew with other members of the syndicate until I felt comfortable with take off and landings on both grass and hard runways, then take the check ride.
This is exactly what I did, but I did log the time as P1/S, as technically the aircraft was under my control. Was this incorrect?
Then, after around five hours, I took the check ride and got signed off. The instructor made no comments about me logging the differences training as P1/S so I assumed it must be OK. (The instructor filled in my log book for the check ride himself and logged me as simply P1.)
From the short time I have been flying the Jodel, and talking to other tail wheel pilots I gather that the Jodel is one of the easier types to master, and there is no way I would assume I could fly other tail wheel aircraft competently without a lot more experience.
Our insurers have also imposed a higher excess for me on the policy until I have completed 10 hours on type.
Regards
Last edited by oscarmike; 10th Nov 2003 at 22:47.
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My understanding is that you cannot log p1/s except after a successful test with an examiner (or when acting as a supervised co-pilot, but this only applies to aircraft which have a minimum crew of 2 pilots, unlike most GA types which require only 1 pilot).
See Irv Lee's FAQ, especially items 24 and 8.
http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm
See also the LASORS at
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_A.pdf
See Irv Lee's FAQ, especially items 24 and 8.
http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm
See also the LASORS at
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_A.pdf
Last edited by FNG; 10th Nov 2003 at 22:58.
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Correct, it's not a test, so the P1/S notation is not applicable. To summarise: time spent with a non-instructor check pilot is not loggable. Time spent with an instructor is training time and loggable as P/UT. That, and the instructor's signature, provide your record of differences training.