Tailwheel conversion
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Gone.........for good this time.
ISTR the CAA have, in the past, granted certain establishments an Exemption for suitably experienced 'check pilots' to undertake conversion flying, where the stude can log the time as P/UT. Not sure of the current status of this, so best call the chaps at the Belgrano, join the queueing system and wait for somebody to answer the call. I believe the Tiger Club have one of these Exemptions in place.
Z
Z
Joined: May 2003
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
To summarise: time spent with a non-instructor check pilot is not loggable
On the other hand, differences training is a legal requirement, must be with an instructor, and is logged as Pu/T. This is so even though the regulations to not specify any minimum standard for the differences training.
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
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From: London, UK
I don't really care what people write in their log books and tend to be surprised by how much time people spend discussing whether you can log "pilot bloke sitting in the back making unhelpful remarks" or similar.
Isn't the simple rule that (leaving aside exemptions) when two PPLs fly in an aircraft which has a minimum crew of one pilot, only one of them can be P1 at any given moment in time. They can decide between themselves who is P1. In the case of a checkout on a complex type, however, if one of the two PPLs has not yet received differences training for the complexity, then he/she can't at that stage be P1.
Isn't the simple rule that (leaving aside exemptions) when two PPLs fly in an aircraft which has a minimum crew of one pilot, only one of them can be P1 at any given moment in time. They can decide between themselves who is P1. In the case of a checkout on a complex type, however, if one of the two PPLs has not yet received differences training for the complexity, then he/she can't at that stage be P1.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 69
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From: Worcestershire UK
Now I'm really confused!
Does this mean therefore, that whilst I was flying with other syndicate members (i.e. not instructors) I was technically a passenger, even though I was 'sole manipulator of the controls'?
As the other member do not have instructor status, I agree I can not log the time as P.U.T. but does this also apply to being 'supervised' ?
As I mentioned before I asked this question of many people at the flying club, and it seemed nobody could give me a definitive answer.
Does this mean therefore, that whilst I was flying with other syndicate members (i.e. not instructors) I was technically a passenger, even though I was 'sole manipulator of the controls'?
As the other member do not have instructor status, I agree I can not log the time as P.U.T. but does this also apply to being 'supervised' ?
As I mentioned before I asked this question of many people at the flying club, and it seemed nobody could give me a definitive answer.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 799
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Does this mean therefore, that whilst I was flying with other syndicate members (i.e. not instructors) I was technically a passenger, even though I was 'sole manipulator of the controls'?
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: kent
The most important thing to check is that the instructor has suffient experience and it is not going to be a case of the blind leading the blind. I would suggest an instructor who learnt on tailwheel or has been regularly flying tailwheel for a long time, otherwise you will find your self wrapped up in an ever decreasing circle of knowledge. Be aware your Cpl IR drivers might have all the badges but not necessarily the experience, but having said this there are a few good guys out there if you look carefully.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: S Warwickshire
The PFA exemption for coaching was ratified by making them CRIs (Class rating instructor). This qualification allows the giving of flight instruction to an existing licence holder for the purpose of renewing, revalidating and additional training in the appropriate class - in this case SEP landplanes.
The experience requirements are greater than for a full FI, but the training is a lot less - about 1 week full time.
Its a bit of a grey area, but I believe it would be legal for a SNY to perform take-offs and landings if the P1 was in a position to re-take control at any time. Thus the 'student' could obtain the experience, but wouldn't be able to log it.
The instructor signing for differences training only has to sign to the effect that you have reached a satisfactory standard.
Booking P1s is incorrect for this. If flying with a PPL/CPL then its SNY, unless they have a FI/CRI where it is Put.
The experience requirements are greater than for a full FI, but the training is a lot less - about 1 week full time.
Its a bit of a grey area, but I believe it would be legal for a SNY to perform take-offs and landings if the P1 was in a position to re-take control at any time. Thus the 'student' could obtain the experience, but wouldn't be able to log it.
The instructor signing for differences training only has to sign to the effect that you have reached a satisfactory standard.
Booking P1s is incorrect for this. If flying with a PPL/CPL then its SNY, unless they have a FI/CRI where it is Put.
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Gone.........for good this time.
Looked at a guys logbook once to see about 200 hrs P.2! The only aircraft he had flown were 4 seat tourers, presumably the time was logged as he sat in the back seat on a booze run to Les Tucket??
Z
Z
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: S Warwickshire
SNY = Supernumerary
i.e. You are not a required member of the crew, and as such you cannot log the time in your log book as a crew member. It merely serves as a means of recording flying experience in your book without it contributing to your totals.
As nearly all SEP aircraft specify the minimum crew as one pilot, your choices for the log book are:
P1, Put or P1s(PICUS).
The latter is only used for a successful flight test with an FE/CRE
or SNY where you don't record the flight time in any of the total columns.
i.e. You are not a required member of the crew, and as such you cannot log the time in your log book as a crew member. It merely serves as a means of recording flying experience in your book without it contributing to your totals.
As nearly all SEP aircraft specify the minimum crew as one pilot, your choices for the log book are:
P1, Put or P1s(PICUS).
The latter is only used for a successful flight test with an FE/CRE
or SNY where you don't record the flight time in any of the total columns.
Guest
Posts: n/a
KCDW,
Don't believe so.
Also the 20 hours is a recommendation as opposed to a rule.
2, 20 or 200+hrs tailwheel you'll be allowed to take one solo only when your check pilot is happy.
WF.
Re: the Tiger Club. Does anyone know if there is a minimum overall hour requirement to fly one other than the 20 hrs tailwheel experience they ask for?
Also the 20 hours is a recommendation as opposed to a rule.
2, 20 or 200+hrs tailwheel you'll be allowed to take one solo only when your check pilot is happy.
WF.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 510
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From: Gone.........for good this time.
KCDW,
Excuse my ignorance here, but why ask the assorted members of Pprune when it's a bit easier to ring the Tiger Club and ask them directly? That way, you can guarantee to get the correct answer straight from the horses mouth (Sorry Jerry!). Although Warped factor has got it in one.
I'll even make it easier for you by providing the number
+44 1622 891017
Excuse my ignorance here, but why ask the assorted members of Pprune when it's a bit easier to ring the Tiger Club and ask them directly? That way, you can guarantee to get the correct answer straight from the horses mouth (Sorry Jerry!). Although Warped factor has got it in one.
I'll even make it easier for you by providing the number
+44 1622 891017
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 239
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From: Kent
Ta Warped Factor and Zlin526 - just in investigation mode at the moment. Slowly evolving a plan to own/form/join a group for a simple tailwheel such as a Luscombe or C140.... branching out to do a bit of Moth flying would be a very pleasant distraction. Oh and Headcorn is my local...
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 86
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From: London
I paid the Tiger Club a visit on saturday, and was very impressed. They have some fantastic aircraft, and were very welcoming.
ZLIN256 - You are correct, they have an agreement with the CAA that means any time spent training with their check pilots IS logable. First flight is next weekend in their Super Cub.
Thanks all for your comments - very imformative as always.
ZLIN256 - You are correct, they have an agreement with the CAA that means any time spent training with their check pilots IS logable. First flight is next weekend in their Super Cub.
Thanks all for your comments - very imformative as always.
