Stall Training
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Stall Training
H Guys.
I'm looking for some ideas.
Put simply, I hate stall training with a PASSION!!!!!!!!!!.
I am learning in a C150, and every time we cannot get into the circuit for whatever reason, my instructor insists on going doing some stall training.
I appreciate that this is a neccessary evil of pilot training, and I can handle a standard stall quite well, but as soon as we get into wing-drop, so do my guts. I panic and generally do something pro-spin.
Whilst I can actually recover the aircraft safely, I still hate the topic. Is there some advice as to how to overcome this.
I doubt that I will ever fall in love with the exercise, but if I could be a little less frightened, and at least tolerate it, that would be an improvment.
Thanks
I'm looking for some ideas.
Put simply, I hate stall training with a PASSION!!!!!!!!!!.
I am learning in a C150, and every time we cannot get into the circuit for whatever reason, my instructor insists on going doing some stall training.
I appreciate that this is a neccessary evil of pilot training, and I can handle a standard stall quite well, but as soon as we get into wing-drop, so do my guts. I panic and generally do something pro-spin.
Whilst I can actually recover the aircraft safely, I still hate the topic. Is there some advice as to how to overcome this.
I doubt that I will ever fall in love with the exercise, but if I could be a little less frightened, and at least tolerate it, that would be an improvment.
Thanks
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Have you considered doing some spin training?
I would imagine you would find the first two or three spins quite scary, but you would soon get used to the sensations. You quite probably would never actually come to like spinning, but it would show you that a wing drop really is nothing to be scared of, and that it can be controlled and recovered easilly.
Good luck!
FFF
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I would imagine you would find the first two or three spins quite scary, but you would soon get used to the sensations. You quite probably would never actually come to like spinning, but it would show you that a wing drop really is nothing to be scared of, and that it can be controlled and recovered easilly.
Good luck!
FFF
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I quite agree.
I had a very similar experience. I had, of course, read the Flight Training book section on stall recovery before I actually had to do it for real, and thought I had it firmly fixed that, if a wing dropped, you corrected it with opposite rudder.
However, when I did my first stall training (I had only done around 8 hours) and the left wing dropped, in the heat of the moment I inadvertantly gave it full left rudder, with very alarming results! Chart and kneeboard were floating in thin air around the cockpit, and the accelerometer registered -2g! Needless to say the instructor recovered us from the spin.
In short it scared the s**t out of me, and from that day to this, I STILL hate doing stalls.
I've had my PPL for just over two years now, but the need to do stall recovery doesn't go away. With each new type I have flown, stall recovery seems to be a standard part of type training.
So, be assured you are certainly not alone, and just stick with it.
Good luck!
I had a very similar experience. I had, of course, read the Flight Training book section on stall recovery before I actually had to do it for real, and thought I had it firmly fixed that, if a wing dropped, you corrected it with opposite rudder.
However, when I did my first stall training (I had only done around 8 hours) and the left wing dropped, in the heat of the moment I inadvertantly gave it full left rudder, with very alarming results! Chart and kneeboard were floating in thin air around the cockpit, and the accelerometer registered -2g! Needless to say the instructor recovered us from the spin.
In short it scared the s**t out of me, and from that day to this, I STILL hate doing stalls.
I've had my PPL for just over two years now, but the need to do stall recovery doesn't go away. With each new type I have flown, stall recovery seems to be a standard part of type training.
So, be assured you are certainly not alone, and just stick with it.
Good luck!
Yes, when you first meet it the stall is scary. But, there are two things that you need to be clear about - one is that properly understood and handled it's a perfectly benign and friendly manoeuvre, the other is that mishandled, especially at low-level it can kill you.
To guard against the latter, you need to be comfortable taking the aeroplane routinely to the point of stall and back again - and the only way to do that, in my opinion, is by practicing over and over again until you do just regard it as a friendly and benign part of flying.
You're obviously early in your studies, which means that you are still flying for the moment with an instructor who is hopefully entirely comfortable stalling or even spinning. So, I'd suggest talking to them, and maybe asking to start by their demonstrating a variety of stalls and recoveries to you - wings level, turning, accelerated, power-off, power-on. Also deep stall (pretty painless in a Cessna) and incipient spin and recovery (less so, but they recover consistently so you've nothing to lose but your lunch). Get comfortable as a spectator, then start to come back on the controls from a position of relative comfort with the manoeuvre, and under the competent supervision of your FI.
And please trust me on this - there are people like me who do hundreds of stalls in prototype aeroplanes, tweaking the design if necessary, scaring ourselves silly on occasion, to ensure that what YOU get to fly is sufficiently benign that the stall is really a non-event, AND that the stall warning is clear and timely. You just need to learn to feel familiar low speed handling, leading to the stall, leading to the recovery, with lots and lots of practice.
G
To guard against the latter, you need to be comfortable taking the aeroplane routinely to the point of stall and back again - and the only way to do that, in my opinion, is by practicing over and over again until you do just regard it as a friendly and benign part of flying.
You're obviously early in your studies, which means that you are still flying for the moment with an instructor who is hopefully entirely comfortable stalling or even spinning. So, I'd suggest talking to them, and maybe asking to start by their demonstrating a variety of stalls and recoveries to you - wings level, turning, accelerated, power-off, power-on. Also deep stall (pretty painless in a Cessna) and incipient spin and recovery (less so, but they recover consistently so you've nothing to lose but your lunch). Get comfortable as a spectator, then start to come back on the controls from a position of relative comfort with the manoeuvre, and under the competent supervision of your FI.
And please trust me on this - there are people like me who do hundreds of stalls in prototype aeroplanes, tweaking the design if necessary, scaring ourselves silly on occasion, to ensure that what YOU get to fly is sufficiently benign that the stall is really a non-event, AND that the stall warning is clear and timely. You just need to learn to feel familiar low speed handling, leading to the stall, leading to the recovery, with lots and lots of practice.
G
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Talking about upper air work, the one I didn't like, mainly because it just felt wrong to me at the time was steep turns. Holding the extra G for 360 degrees just made me feel uncomfortable. I suppose though as with stalls we need to keep in mind it could save our lives one day. I trained in a C172 and never actually got a wing drop but I can imagine its scarey.
If they're bothering you that much, perhaps stepping back from them a bit followed by a gradual re-introduction will help you.
Tell you instructor about your difficulty & ask if you can do a period of slow flight ~5-10 kts above the stall. Get used to flying around at this speed in different flap configurations. You'll need to add power during turns.
Once you're quite comfy with this fly with the stall warning just activating. Get used to stopping it by reducing AoA, starting it by slightly increasing AoA. Again, you'll need to coordinate power during manoeuvring. Focus also on being able to maintain a heading with wings level ie use rudder to PREVENT yaw away from the desired heading. Use a distant surface feature as an aim point.
Next step is to take it to a power OFF stall in straight, unaccelerated flight. Just like in the previous exercise, stop the stall by reducing AoA. The goal is for you to CONTROL the process. You could, for example, stop the stall just enough to leave the stall warning activated, or recover to a slow glide. Don't forget the wings level/no yaw thing. After getting comfortable with flap up stalls, progress to increasing flap settings.
Next is to stay in the stall for a period while still holding the heading. Recover after a while eg500' height loss. Ditto the flap settings.
Now do a straight stall, recover and use power to minimise the altitude loss. Don't rush the recover at first. Take you time to transition through all the previous stages you've been practicing. Add power after the stall warning stops. Start adding power earlier & earlier until you are comfortable doing this pretty much simultaneously with the other recovery actions. Ditto the flap settings.
Next is power on stalls. Start with minimal power, building up to climbing stalls.
Do the same process with turning stalls. Start with power off, shallow AoB. Build up to increasing power & bank angles.
Depending on the a/c type some combinations of flap/power/turns will cause more abrupt stall behaviour than others. The goal is to leave those ones until the very end of this process. Your instructor will know which combinations are more benign & these are the ones to do first eg it might be that stalls up to 20 or 30 deg AoB are more benign than climbing stalls. Fine, do those before climbing stalls etc.
Tell you instructor about your difficulty & ask if you can do a period of slow flight ~5-10 kts above the stall. Get used to flying around at this speed in different flap configurations. You'll need to add power during turns.
Once you're quite comfy with this fly with the stall warning just activating. Get used to stopping it by reducing AoA, starting it by slightly increasing AoA. Again, you'll need to coordinate power during manoeuvring. Focus also on being able to maintain a heading with wings level ie use rudder to PREVENT yaw away from the desired heading. Use a distant surface feature as an aim point.
Next step is to take it to a power OFF stall in straight, unaccelerated flight. Just like in the previous exercise, stop the stall by reducing AoA. The goal is for you to CONTROL the process. You could, for example, stop the stall just enough to leave the stall warning activated, or recover to a slow glide. Don't forget the wings level/no yaw thing. After getting comfortable with flap up stalls, progress to increasing flap settings.
Next is to stay in the stall for a period while still holding the heading. Recover after a while eg500' height loss. Ditto the flap settings.
Now do a straight stall, recover and use power to minimise the altitude loss. Don't rush the recover at first. Take you time to transition through all the previous stages you've been practicing. Add power after the stall warning stops. Start adding power earlier & earlier until you are comfortable doing this pretty much simultaneously with the other recovery actions. Ditto the flap settings.
Next is power on stalls. Start with minimal power, building up to climbing stalls.
Do the same process with turning stalls. Start with power off, shallow AoB. Build up to increasing power & bank angles.
Depending on the a/c type some combinations of flap/power/turns will cause more abrupt stall behaviour than others. The goal is to leave those ones until the very end of this process. Your instructor will know which combinations are more benign & these are the ones to do first eg it might be that stalls up to 20 or 30 deg AoB are more benign than climbing stalls. Fine, do those before climbing stalls etc.
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Dewdrop, the weird thing about doing steep turns was that when the instructor was showing me I started to feel a bit queasy after a few turns.
Then when I did it, I felt fine!
Then when I did it, I felt fine!
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CLP,
Pretty much everything I was going to say has already been said. I will add though, that I too hated my initial stall training. What made the difference was when I realised why we were doing it and what we were trying to simulate. There may well come a time (even a few hundred hours from now) when you're out solo, you turn final, you haven't been keeping an eye on the ASI BUT you react immediately to that buzzer/buffet and recover your a/c without inserting into someone else's chimney. The training you're doing now could well save your life later down the line, and although your reactions are the wrong ones at the moment, they will come right.
As I said, like you I hated doing stall training during my first few hours, now I try to do some every time I go up and I actually enjoy it.
Keep at it,
Strafer
Pretty much everything I was going to say has already been said. I will add though, that I too hated my initial stall training. What made the difference was when I realised why we were doing it and what we were trying to simulate. There may well come a time (even a few hundred hours from now) when you're out solo, you turn final, you haven't been keeping an eye on the ASI BUT you react immediately to that buzzer/buffet and recover your a/c without inserting into someone else's chimney. The training you're doing now could well save your life later down the line, and although your reactions are the wrong ones at the moment, they will come right.
As I said, like you I hated doing stall training during my first few hours, now I try to do some every time I go up and I actually enjoy it.
Keep at it,
Strafer
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I have recently done some stalling for the first time and I didn't enjoy it much. I find in the C152 that almost all forward vision is lost and that this is deeply disconcerting. However, there is no particular sensation of falling. I am just very happy when the time comes to relax on the yoke and get the power in.
I also found out the hard way not to use aileron in the stall. This was also rather unsettling and I felt sick for the rest of the day even though I retained my breakfast. As a consequence, during the stall I recite
"I must not use ailerons"
"I must not use ailerons"
"I must NOT use ailerons"...
I also found out the hard way not to use aileron in the stall. This was also rather unsettling and I felt sick for the rest of the day even though I retained my breakfast. As a consequence, during the stall I recite
"I must not use ailerons"
"I must not use ailerons"
"I must NOT use ailerons"...
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Small Tangent!
I recently did some stalling in a Terrorhawk. Wing dropped like a git everytime. I have to say I loved it after the 1st one! and went up on my own thenext week to make sure I was comfortable. However I was told the wong drop recovery was Basically the SSR only correcting the wing drop after the aircraft was unstalled (with aileron) now I always read that the wing drop had to at least be stopped with opp rudder.
any comments?
I recently did some stalling in a Terrorhawk. Wing dropped like a git everytime. I have to say I loved it after the 1st one! and went up on my own thenext week to make sure I was comfortable. However I was told the wong drop recovery was Basically the SSR only correcting the wing drop after the aircraft was unstalled (with aileron) now I always read that the wing drop had to at least be stopped with opp rudder.
any comments?
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I think allot of good advice has already been given.
From my experiences, I would say, once you have had a bit of time after getting your PPL, if you are still uncomfortable with stalls/ steep turns, book a few aeros lessons. You find them great fun and then stalls and steep turns will feel very tame!
Also Dop, its a very common occurrence that when you are actually flying you don't feel ill!
From my experiences, I would say, once you have had a bit of time after getting your PPL, if you are still uncomfortable with stalls/ steep turns, book a few aeros lessons. You find them great fun and then stalls and steep turns will feel very tame!
Also Dop, its a very common occurrence that when you are actually flying you don't feel ill!
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I don't like stall training either, but I don't like it because it's so boring and there isn't much to it. I don't find it scary at all. Spinning however is great fun, I love to spin and anybody who hasn't is missing out.
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Why not try stalling another aircraft to get your confidence up? If you stall say a PA28, you'll find that the stall characteristics are completely different to a Cessna. The cessna likes to drop a wing, the PA28's don't. You can hold a PA28 fully stalled for 20 seconds easily (altitude permitting of course 
) just using small rudder inputs to remain level.
As you progress through flight training, you find that "normal" intentional stalls are nothing to worry about, if you're with an instructor and you spin, he/she will recover. If you can't see forward look at the wingtip, this will tell you pitch,yaw and roll, and you'll feel the buffet. As long as you're co-ordinated and don't use the aeilerons you'll be fine, if a wing drops, rather than trying to pick the wing up with the rudder, recover from the stall then pick the wing up. Use rudder to remain coordinated during the manouvre and it is unlikely a wing will drop too drastically.
Good luck
EA
) just using small rudder inputs to remain level. As you progress through flight training, you find that "normal" intentional stalls are nothing to worry about, if you're with an instructor and you spin, he/she will recover. If you can't see forward look at the wingtip, this will tell you pitch,yaw and roll, and you'll feel the buffet. As long as you're co-ordinated and don't use the aeilerons you'll be fine, if a wing drops, rather than trying to pick the wing up with the rudder, recover from the stall then pick the wing up. Use rudder to remain coordinated during the manouvre and it is unlikely a wing will drop too drastically.
Good luck
EA
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I was OK with stalling in the PA28, I could even tell when the wing would drop because the instructor had to stick some rudder in. I did have trouble pulling back enough to get it to stall. All this changed wheen I went on to the PA38, I was not prepared for the vicious wing drop and got quite worries as not long after the wing dropped the nose dropped and I thought I would spin. The books made the spin sound scary. Just before my test I was taught how not to get the wing to drop in the stall this made me less apprehensive. A few months after my test I got my PA38 instructor to demo a spin - it was no where near as bad as I imagined it would be. I will always be wary of the stall and try to recover at first sign.
I disagree with the idea that one should use rudder to prevent wing drop &/or raise the wing. My 'take' is that rudder should be used sufficiently to stop the yaw. Raise the wing using coordinated aileron/rudder once unstalled.
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Only use rudder to 'prevent any further yaw'. This is really rather transient since once the wings are flying fully again the yaw will stop. Use aileron to roll wings level during the recovery.
Picking up the wing with rudder is at least as dangerous as using aileron in the stall (modern aircraft are certificated to withstand a great deal of aileron mishandling during the stall) - think about it; aircraft stalled and significant rudder = pro-spin control.
Perhaps your instructor is insisting on heaving the aircraft into a stall? Why not try very slow decelerations (less than 1knot/sec) the value is in watching the stall develop.
My view is that if you are not happy with stalling you will be flying unhappy with a very significant area of aircraft behaviour - it will affect your landings since you will petrified of the stall (and it's proximity!)
Picking up the wing with rudder is at least as dangerous as using aileron in the stall (modern aircraft are certificated to withstand a great deal of aileron mishandling during the stall) - think about it; aircraft stalled and significant rudder = pro-spin control.
Perhaps your instructor is insisting on heaving the aircraft into a stall? Why not try very slow decelerations (less than 1knot/sec) the value is in watching the stall develop.
My view is that if you are not happy with stalling you will be flying unhappy with a very significant area of aircraft behaviour - it will affect your landings since you will petrified of the stall (and it's proximity!)
Use rudder to prevent further yaw.
Stall training is a bit of a chore or a bit of an excuse for some fun depending on your temperment.
Just be frank with your instructor and he will accomodate your discomfort.
Good luck,
WWW
Stall training is a bit of a chore or a bit of an excuse for some fun depending on your temperment.
Just be frank with your instructor and he will accomodate your discomfort.
Good luck,
WWW
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My instructor tells me that the aim of the exercise is to deep stall the aircraft and prevent a wing from dropping using the rudder. Maybe the aim of the exercise is just general airmanship.
Another exercise is the stall during the turning descent. Two stages of flap, moderate bank and pull to the stall warner. Apply full power and level the wings with opposite rudder.
Then of course there is the straightforward incipient recovery.
I have troble with the rudders: I'm not much of a dancer
I don't see much value in looking at the wingtip during the stall; True you will get a good appreciation of movement about all three axes, but personally I can't help then correcting with aileron.
Another exercise is the stall during the turning descent. Two stages of flap, moderate bank and pull to the stall warner. Apply full power and level the wings with opposite rudder.
Then of course there is the straightforward incipient recovery.
I have troble with the rudders: I'm not much of a dancer
I don't see much value in looking at the wingtip during the stall; True you will get a good appreciation of movement about all three axes, but personally I can't help then correcting with aileron.
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Noisy - a deep stall is something quite different from a full stall. If your instructor is talking about deep stalling I suspect him or her to be a little unsure of the difference (your still here so I assume you've not been deep stalling for real!)
The aim of the exercise is to learn the characteristics of a fully developed stall and to learn the recovery actions.
A further learning point is to recognise and recover from the onset of a stall.
To prevent wing drop with rudder is a rather dangerous way to expain what you are dealing with. Completely preventing a wing drop is exactly the same as picking a wing up with rudder - any yaw that develops will effectively be pro-spin.
It is much better to think of the phrase 'prevent further yaw' because without yaw the tendency to spin is very much reduced. Preventing a wing drop assumes that your rudder is powerful enough to overcome any autorotative tendencies right down to speeds below the stall - which it might be on the type you are flying now but might not be on the next type.
The aim of every exercise is to build airmanship. You must understand stalling but I feel that it is covered very badly indeed. All of the time is spent some way above the stall talking about 'sloppy control response' etc (which I think is very difficult to prove in some training types) then one rapidly decelerates into a hoofing great stall with a frantically pattering instructor trying to mention all of the salient features.
Very little time is spent around the high drag/high sink area close to the stall examining the fact that many training aircraft have comparitively little buffet as an onset warning. Very little is made of how one can spend time - at height - examining how quickly and delicately one can break a stall.
I feel that it is very poorly covered and we now see instructors who have a fear of stalling and a terrible understanding of the behaviour of an aircraft near the stall. The message is very much that there is stalling or flying and nothing exists in between. That, of course, encourages the view that stalling is a killer around the corner that will occur in the blink of an eye.
The aim of the exercise is to learn the characteristics of a fully developed stall and to learn the recovery actions.
A further learning point is to recognise and recover from the onset of a stall.
To prevent wing drop with rudder is a rather dangerous way to expain what you are dealing with. Completely preventing a wing drop is exactly the same as picking a wing up with rudder - any yaw that develops will effectively be pro-spin.
It is much better to think of the phrase 'prevent further yaw' because without yaw the tendency to spin is very much reduced. Preventing a wing drop assumes that your rudder is powerful enough to overcome any autorotative tendencies right down to speeds below the stall - which it might be on the type you are flying now but might not be on the next type.
The aim of every exercise is to build airmanship. You must understand stalling but I feel that it is covered very badly indeed. All of the time is spent some way above the stall talking about 'sloppy control response' etc (which I think is very difficult to prove in some training types) then one rapidly decelerates into a hoofing great stall with a frantically pattering instructor trying to mention all of the salient features.
Very little time is spent around the high drag/high sink area close to the stall examining the fact that many training aircraft have comparitively little buffet as an onset warning. Very little is made of how one can spend time - at height - examining how quickly and delicately one can break a stall.
I feel that it is very poorly covered and we now see instructors who have a fear of stalling and a terrible understanding of the behaviour of an aircraft near the stall. The message is very much that there is stalling or flying and nothing exists in between. That, of course, encourages the view that stalling is a killer around the corner that will occur in the blink of an eye.
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Hi All,
Coming from the gliding world to power I have never found stalling, spinning or slow flight anything but normal. True, it is easy to recover far quicker in a relatively benign glider, but scratching for lift at high bank angles and nibbleing the stall really does teach "feel". Often, and this applies to power also, a firm quick push will get a wing to "bite" again with virtually no loss of height. Even with huge glider wings, rudder wasn't used at the incipent stage and the exercise was simply to recover by elevator then use co-ordinated rudder and aileron once unstalled. As has been pointed out rudder is used to counter excess yaw only as too much could easily flick you into a spin in the opposite direction. In a fully developed spin, full opposite rudder is probably only applied for a split second to speed yaw correction before it is eased off, but this becomes too instinctive to easily analysis.
Very slow flight, especially at or just into a stalled condition is often not taught at all. As I'm not an instructor I don't know what the patter is or whether it is actually required to be taught. In my experience it seems to be glossed over in the power flying world, which is a great shame. Some instructors seem to think that the only way to teach a pupil about stalling is to plough straight into a fully developed one straight away and forget that what seems gentle to them is often traumatising to a pupil. Stalls, and IMHO spinning should hold no fear and correct recovery should be instinctive not something to require thought at the time. The only way to achieve this is to allay any fear and discomfort, and the only way to achieve that is sympathetic instruction and practice.
IM
Coming from the gliding world to power I have never found stalling, spinning or slow flight anything but normal. True, it is easy to recover far quicker in a relatively benign glider, but scratching for lift at high bank angles and nibbleing the stall really does teach "feel". Often, and this applies to power also, a firm quick push will get a wing to "bite" again with virtually no loss of height. Even with huge glider wings, rudder wasn't used at the incipent stage and the exercise was simply to recover by elevator then use co-ordinated rudder and aileron once unstalled. As has been pointed out rudder is used to counter excess yaw only as too much could easily flick you into a spin in the opposite direction. In a fully developed spin, full opposite rudder is probably only applied for a split second to speed yaw correction before it is eased off, but this becomes too instinctive to easily analysis.
Very slow flight, especially at or just into a stalled condition is often not taught at all. As I'm not an instructor I don't know what the patter is or whether it is actually required to be taught. In my experience it seems to be glossed over in the power flying world, which is a great shame. Some instructors seem to think that the only way to teach a pupil about stalling is to plough straight into a fully developed one straight away and forget that what seems gentle to them is often traumatising to a pupil. Stalls, and IMHO spinning should hold no fear and correct recovery should be instinctive not something to require thought at the time. The only way to achieve this is to allay any fear and discomfort, and the only way to achieve that is sympathetic instruction and practice.
IM