What is a Pa27 ???????????
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What is a Pa27 ???????????
This has really started to get up my nose lately ! More & more Aztec drivers appear to be refering to their craft as a Pa27 !!!!!
Why ??????? Have they changed the Icao designator, or is it 27 ? I'll stand to be corrected, though I'm sure in my Aztec/Apache days they were known as Pa23's !
It reminds me of a phase several years ago when many chopper jocks refered to themselves as "Helo's", though it didn't stick for long
Neg G
Why ??????? Have they changed the Icao designator, or is it 27 ? I'll stand to be corrected, though I'm sure in my Aztec/Apache days they were known as Pa23's !
It reminds me of a phase several years ago when many chopper jocks refered to themselves as "Helo's", though it didn't stick for long
Neg G
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PA-27 Aztec - initial designation for PA-23-250 (from Airlife's General Aviation). Apparently the Aztec was certificated under the Apache's type certificate even though it had been developed as the PA-27, so it was never actually known as the PA-27..........I'll get my anorak......
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You'll find as well if you look at the aircrafts construction number (located lower fuselage beneath the fin) the larger engined models actually start "27-YY*****" (YY being the year of manufacture) following Pipers practice of model number being the first two digits.
To me it's an Aztec (an 'F' version in the case of the one I fly) - but it's a PA27 on the flight plan
To me it's an Aztec (an 'F' version in the case of the one I fly) - but it's a PA27 on the flight plan
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Ah I hold my hands up in respect, thank you everyone for answering something that was actually starting to annoy me
I can honestly say that I've never noticed up until recently any indication of there being a Pa27 in existance, however thinking back the only type that I would have filed a flight plan for would have been a very old & unfortunately now deceased
Pa23 Apache !
Thanks again chaps & chapesses, the next time I hear Pa27 mentioned on the R/T a big grin will surely grace my face 
Neg G
I can honestly say that I've never noticed up until recently any indication of there being a Pa27 in existance, however thinking back the only type that I would have filed a flight plan for would have been a very old & unfortunately now deceased
Pa23 Apache !Thanks again chaps & chapesses, the next time I hear Pa27 mentioned on the R/T a big grin will surely grace my face
Neg G
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So who is actually correct ? The Pa23 or Pa27 Brigade ?
Is this just another example of some smart@rse(s) who have nothing better to do than read "The history of Piper aircraft" book & study the ICAO codes and then share their SAD little findings with the rest of us over the R/T
Or am I just being harsh ?
Neg G
Is this just another example of some smart@rse(s) who have nothing better to do than read "The history of Piper aircraft" book & study the ICAO codes and then share their SAD little findings with the rest of us over the R/T
Or am I just being harsh ?
Neg G
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Negative 'G'
You're probably being a little harsh, but there is a grain of sense in what you're getting at.
I'll take off the pilot hat and put on the ATCO one now. I'd rather hear the name (Apache, Aztec etc) because with some of Mr Pipers products it has certain safety consequences.
I once saw a flight plan on an inbound - it said P28A. This is what appeared on the flight strip, this is what the controller thought he was getting. Said visitor requested an SRA. Controller was busy and didn't bother with gear check at 8 miles. At 3 miles he issued the landing clearance and got back "Roger, cleared to land, gear to come". It was an Arrow!
Who was at fault - the pilot, he actually filed a flight plan and put the wrong type on it. Knowing his ICAO codes would have prevented it. However, lots of people don't flight plan and it does make a difference at GA fields if you let us know whether you're a Cherokee, an Arrow, etc etc.
So yes, Neg 'G', you've got a point and although you've called it sad it can also have more serious consequences. PA32's are another example - is it a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear) or a Lance (retractable and faster)?
Names please boys and girls - it makes life easier (thereby making neither the '23 or the '27 brigade correct
).
You're probably being a little harsh, but there is a grain of sense in what you're getting at.
I'll take off the pilot hat and put on the ATCO one now. I'd rather hear the name (Apache, Aztec etc) because with some of Mr Pipers products it has certain safety consequences.
I once saw a flight plan on an inbound - it said P28A. This is what appeared on the flight strip, this is what the controller thought he was getting. Said visitor requested an SRA. Controller was busy and didn't bother with gear check at 8 miles. At 3 miles he issued the landing clearance and got back "Roger, cleared to land, gear to come". It was an Arrow!
Who was at fault - the pilot, he actually filed a flight plan and put the wrong type on it. Knowing his ICAO codes would have prevented it. However, lots of people don't flight plan and it does make a difference at GA fields if you let us know whether you're a Cherokee, an Arrow, etc etc.
So yes, Neg 'G', you've got a point and although you've called it sad it can also have more serious consequences. PA32's are another example - is it a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear) or a Lance (retractable and faster)?
Names please boys and girls - it makes life easier (thereby making neither the '23 or the '27 brigade correct
).
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Negative G
You are completely misreading, misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. The aircraft is designated in the POH as a PA23E-250 (where the E might be a D or an F).
In flight plans until about 3 or 4 years ago it was allowable to put either PA23 or PAZT. The edict then came out from ICAO that we had to put PA27. I rather suspect that this requirement came from Route Charges, because an Apache isn't chargeable but an Aztec is (but I have no evidence of this.)
Once the FPL says PA27 ATCOs will tend to use that designator, particularly if, unlike Chilli, they are not familiar with the type, though I agree that it is more helpful if they identify us to others as Aztecs. When I check in on frequency I always call myself an Aztec, in the hope that the ATCO will do the same.
But one way or the other this has nothing to do with people being nerdish with Piper numbers. It is a change of rules imposed by ICAO.
If you don't keep up with the situation blame yourself, not those of us that do.
W
You are completely misreading, misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. The aircraft is designated in the POH as a PA23E-250 (where the E might be a D or an F).
In flight plans until about 3 or 4 years ago it was allowable to put either PA23 or PAZT. The edict then came out from ICAO that we had to put PA27. I rather suspect that this requirement came from Route Charges, because an Apache isn't chargeable but an Aztec is (but I have no evidence of this.)
Once the FPL says PA27 ATCOs will tend to use that designator, particularly if, unlike Chilli, they are not familiar with the type, though I agree that it is more helpful if they identify us to others as Aztecs. When I check in on frequency I always call myself an Aztec, in the hope that the ATCO will do the same.
But one way or the other this has nothing to do with people being nerdish with Piper numbers. It is a change of rules imposed by ICAO.
If you don't keep up with the situation blame yourself, not those of us that do.
W
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Chilli Monster,
Hope this isn't taking us too far off topic - but I wasn't aware that ATC dealt with retractable aircraft any differently to fixed gear.
My Europa is retractable. Other Europas aren't. Whatever the gear configuration, the ICAO code is the same - EUPA. When I give my type to ATC, I always say "Europa". It would never occur to me to say "Europa monowheel", nor, I suspect, would most controllers realise that because I have a monowheel, it's retractable. Is this an issue? I hadn't thought of it as an issue before.
(Interestingly, I think it was at Duxford but I'm not sure, I once had a controller - or it must have been an AFISO if it was Duxford - ask me to confirm that my gear was down. I checked, and it was... and I realised that the unusual gear arrangement would probably confuse anyone who was looking at the aircraft and didn't know what they were looking for - they would probably not see enough wheels, and even if they knew how many wheels to look for, the top of the main wheel remains inside the wheel well when the gear is extended, so it probably looks like it's up when it's not if you're not close to it.)
FFF
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Hope this isn't taking us too far off topic - but I wasn't aware that ATC dealt with retractable aircraft any differently to fixed gear.
My Europa is retractable. Other Europas aren't. Whatever the gear configuration, the ICAO code is the same - EUPA. When I give my type to ATC, I always say "Europa". It would never occur to me to say "Europa monowheel", nor, I suspect, would most controllers realise that because I have a monowheel, it's retractable. Is this an issue? I hadn't thought of it as an issue before.
(Interestingly, I think it was at Duxford but I'm not sure, I once had a controller - or it must have been an AFISO if it was Duxford - ask me to confirm that my gear was down. I checked, and it was... and I realised that the unusual gear arrangement would probably confuse anyone who was looking at the aircraft and didn't know what they were looking for - they would probably not see enough wheels, and even if they knew how many wheels to look for, the top of the main wheel remains inside the wheel well when the gear is extended, so it probably looks like it's up when it's not if you're not close to it.)
FFF
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(Interestingly, I think it was at Duxford but I'm not sure, I once had a controller - or it must have been an AFISO if it was Duxford - ask me to confirm that my gear was down. I checked, and it was... and I realised that the unusual gear arrangement would probably confuse anyone who was looking at the aircraft and didn't know what they were looking for - they would probably not see enough wheels, and even if they knew how many wheels to look for, the top of the main wheel remains inside the wheel well when the gear is extended, so it probably looks like it's up when it's not if you're not close to it.)
Blimey - you'd think that after > 3040 posts you could write in English FFF
Blimey - you'd think that after > 3040 posts you could write in English FFF
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FFF
Only in the following ways:
1) SRA phraseology (unlikely in the Europa as it's not approved for IMC, but may be your only option if you end up in it) requires an undercarriage check during the approach.
2) When you get a range check from radar (say traffic on an instrument approach) a mental clock starts ticking. You know that certain retractables at 7 miles will beat the aircraft just starting the downwind leg to final - for some fixed gear the reverse is true. It's how you decide who will be number 1 and who will be number 2.
Hope this isn't taking us too far off topic - but I wasn't aware that ATC dealt with retractable aircraft any differently to fixed gear.
1) SRA phraseology (unlikely in the Europa as it's not approved for IMC, but may be your only option if you end up in it
) requires an undercarriage check during the approach.2) When you get a range check from radar (say traffic on an instrument approach) a mental clock starts ticking. You know that certain retractables at 7 miles will beat the aircraft just starting the downwind leg to final - for some fixed gear the reverse is true. It's how you decide who will be number 1 and who will be number 2.
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PA27 on flight plans for NATS/EUROCONTROL – for correct route charges. For continuity in the system once you are nominated a PA27 – you stay one.
PA23 outside EUROCONTROL area.
PAZT – for flight plans originally but now changed to PA27 so that charges can be levied when flying under IFR/SVFR. VFR flights are free of route charges for PA27 > 2000kgs.
Apache < 2000kgs – no route charges. PAZT for FP's
Yer get used to it after a couple of years and get on with other issues that are far more perplexing.
It's quite easy to say "PA27 Aztec" and ATC can correlate with their strips. ATC know that an Aztec is a flexible beast and can provide 160 to 4 or 100 at 10 - so Aztec drivers tend to "fit in"
Lovely aeroplane - whatever yer call it.
PA23 outside EUROCONTROL area.
PAZT – for flight plans originally but now changed to PA27 so that charges can be levied when flying under IFR/SVFR. VFR flights are free of route charges for PA27 > 2000kgs.
Apache < 2000kgs – no route charges. PAZT for FP's
Yer get used to it after a couple of years and get on with other issues that are far more perplexing.
It's quite easy to say "PA27 Aztec" and ATC can correlate with their strips. ATC know that an Aztec is a flexible beast and can provide 160 to 4 or 100 at 10 - so Aztec drivers tend to "fit in"
Lovely aeroplane - whatever yer call it.
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Chilli
My understanding on the Piper singles is:
PA28 = fixed gear
PA28R = Arrer
PA28RT = Arrer 4
PA32 = fixed gear Six/Lance/Saratoga
PA32R = retract Lance or Saratoga
PA32RT = retract Lance II
However, I'm not an anorak and I will be pleased to be corrected by someone with more knowledge
My understanding on the Piper singles is:
PA28 = fixed gear
PA28R = Arrer
PA28RT = Arrer 4
PA32 = fixed gear Six/Lance/Saratoga
PA32R = retract Lance or Saratoga
PA32RT = retract Lance II
However, I'm not an anorak and I will be pleased to be corrected by someone with more knowledge
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CM
My point is that you oversimplified Piper single numbering and I was trying to be helpful, but your prickly response suggests this isn't appreciated, so I'll shut up.
PA32's are another example - is it a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear) or a Lance (retractable and faster)?
F3G
ICAO aircraft designators (Doc 8643) have a maximum of 4 characters. The only online version I can find is at AOPA.
P28A is the Cherokee 140 to Archer family.
P28B are the higher powered (201/235/236) fixed gear Cherokees and Dakota.
P28R is the Arrow (retractable) except
P28T which is the Arrow 4.
For the Apache/Aztec family, PA23 is the Apache, PA27 is the Aztec, PAZT does not exist.
ICAO aircraft designators (Doc 8643) have a maximum of 4 characters. The only online version I can find is at AOPA.
P28A is the Cherokee 140 to Archer family.
P28B are the higher powered (201/235/236) fixed gear Cherokees and Dakota.
P28R is the Arrow (retractable) except
P28T which is the Arrow 4.
For the Apache/Aztec family, PA23 is the Apache, PA27 is the Aztec, PAZT does not exist.