I usually fly business class
 

...because the company pays, obviously. However, having just returned from the USA having flown economy because of customer requirements, I would like to offer the following observation.

I flew out with Virgin Atlantic and it was a good experience to the point that I wondered why do we bother paying 5 times the ticket price when economy is more than enough?

I flew back with Delta and now I know. If you want an experience reminiscent of a 1970's charter flight on a cramped aging and noisy 767, please fly Delta economy.

'Chicken or pasta', chuck, 'chicken or pasta', chuck.

' Can you tell me what the food is ?'

'Stuffed chicken or lasagne'.

'I don't like cheese, what is the chicken stuffed with?'

'Cheese'.

''Oh, nothing else ?'

''Yes, salad'

'What sort of salad?'

'Cheese'

'Oh'

'Chicken or pasta , chicken or pasta....' fading into the distance.

Knees pressed against seat in front, seat with limited recline, perhaps because entertainment screen doesn't swivel, sound on entertainment so poor it's unuseable despite a good selection ( but at least screen worked unlike that of the passenger next to me).

'Chicken or pasta, chicken or pasta...'

So if you want a Soviet style experience fly Delta economy, but if you want a good service which renders business class obsolete, choose Virgin.

I flew Delta in economy last in 1976 when they were the bees knees. What in earth has happened to them such that I have had to register a complaint with my company and a restriction that the combination of Delta+economy+767 is such that I'll refuse to fly?

Strange how things change. Many years ago (and yes, many) I flew economy class with Virgin and vowed never to do so again. Service was fine but the seating was unbearably cramped in comparison to other Y class products across the ocean at the time.

Yep, it's probably all one big cycle. Not that I am bitter or anything.

The question is how much did you pay in 1976 and how much did you pay today?

My guess is that you probably paid less in face value FORTY years later in economy and that 2016 Business Class, when adjusted for inflation, was slightly more than you paid in economy in '76

as people repeat on here "we get what we pay for"

Unfortunately, west bound from the UK doesn't give you a choice of many decent economy class options. Going east its a different story with all of Skytrax 5* airlines such as Singapore/Qatar/Cathay/Asiana/EVA/ANA/Garuda and Hainan available and a good selection of 4* such as Emirates and Turkish.

Note that there are only two US airlines that make the 4* list, JetBlue and Virgin America most are in the 3* category along with the likes of Air India and Egypt Air. Spirit are 2* alongside Iran Air and Turkmenistan Airlines.

The last time I flew Y transatlantic with DL it was chicken or pasta. I don't like pasta so asked for chicken which was ... pasta with a few lumps of chicken. Take some sandwiches when flying with American carriers.

The staff were better than some other US carriers though.

Check who is operating the flight though now that DL own 49% of VS and that its not a codeshare.

I saved 40% of the lowest quoted non-stop fare last time I flew LHR - JFK by flying KLM via AMS. Took longer but good service, I can chose my seat free free in advance, and I still got DL frequent flyer points.

Unfortunately my employer doesn't do things that way. The price of the Delta ticket, Dallas to San Diego in 1976 was probably astronomical.

KLM are particularly good if leaving from a regional city in the UK.

Look at Aer Lingus as well from London, a connection in the Irish Republic but includes US pre clearance so effectively a domestic arrival at the other end. Their business class isn't up to BA standards but neither is the price.

Norwegian may be worth looking at if the price is right and you don't expect too much.

Going via AMS saves a packet but on the way back you're faced with a change & another flight to the UK at the end of an already tiring trip ........ not a problem outbound but not so nice inbound

Of course if you have to fly to NCL or MAN from LHR it makes no difference and AMS is a far better choice both ways

Ethiopian from DUB are well worth a look at, you can pick up J class fares for peanuts

Spot on analysis, Mr Optimistic. Your account is exactly what I have experienced with these shambolic US legacies, and American and United are no different.

BA and VS are light years ahead on service, and I am not saying this because I am anti-US. Far from it. I would love to see Jet Blue going trans-atlantic and really shaking up the market.

If you have to fly economy again, also consider Norwegian, which has a very good (so I hear) premium product which is only slightly more expensive than the legacy economy fare. They fly to 5 or 6 points at the moment including New York, Boston and LA and are steadily expanding.

not business, but...
 

Next year wife & I are booked to fly Auckland to Kuala Lumpur
with Air Asia. Economy of course, but we paid for an upgrade
to lie-flay bed (6 feet).Includes meals & drinks, comparable to Business Class ?
We will find out. Then we will go on to Bangkok and then
Norwegian (premium) on to Alicante which is apparently bookable
as a single ticket. Usually we travel Business, but this combination
was especially cheap. We could also get cheap business class from Bangkok
to Europe with Air India and Air Sri Lanka, but onward connections to
Spain were not so good. We are never in a hurry & will stop over en-route.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Over the last 2 years according to my passport I have flown 12 round trips across the pond. In economy on Delta, Virgin and BA.
BA have lost their way and need some new aircraft. Virgin ok nothing special and the same with Delta. Worst seat was the brand new Virgin 787 seat, no padding and my arse was painful after only 2 hours! All had the same leg room
but Delta had the advantage with the 2-3-2 layout. All 3 have rubbish food with little choice, all down to cost saving I'm afraid and Virgin and Delta get their food from the same place.
As for sitting in the posh bit, best was the trip I have just got back from with Swiss. Can't fault them. Worst was Virgin Upper Class. Old A340, rubbish inflight entertainment, rude and unhelpful crew.
Delta I have had good and bad and BA just old and tired.
Just my views but we are all different.

- I've flown long range on United once (EWR-DXB) never again. Crap legroom and poor meal choices (only 2 meals and limited 2 two choices) and terrible service all around. I tell people it was like being in a Greyhound, only the seat cushion was a city bus seat!

-Flew Etihad to Abu Dhabi in economy from YYZ: Godiva chocolate, 3 meal options (another 2 if you wanted a healthy option or veggie), 2 snacks (meat or veggie) and 3 drink rounds over the 12-13 hr flight. The cabin crew were attentive and always looking to improve your experience (i.e guy next to me IFE wasnt working the flight attendant asked if he'd like another seat, he didn't have to ask!)

-Flew domestic JFK-SFO on Delta.....2 drinks and a "salty or sweet packet sir?" FOR A 6 HOUR FLIGHT, flight on Jetblue from BUF-JFK was great, lots of legroom and the MINT upgrade wasn't too expensive if you wanted it.

-Flew domestic DXB-DOH then KHI (2.5hr) got a full breakfast, snack if wanted and amazing seats with great legroom in economy.

The way i see it, while the NA carriers are complaining about ME airline profits, airlines in the ME, Asia (select few) and EU (some airlines) are sacrificing legroom, meal costs, and that added feature from first class all the way to the guy that's gotta sit in economy next to the lavatory, to earn respect and reputation!

While the NA carriers retrofit their 767's and 1990's 777-200's, the ME carriers have enough redundant customers to push 787's and a350's right through their fleets. It's a sad state when all the US carriers care about the making money on efficiency and fees, what ever happened to customer service and experience so that the customer will return (the principle of marketing)??? Only Jetblue seems ahead in the domestic market, and a few Delta planes internationally. It's sad, and what's worse is that amongst the gazzilion US airlines, they all price like a monopoly. Sad really....anytime i get an option to pay a few bucks more for a Virgin or an EK, its a clear choice now.

The way i see it, US carriers First Class is like sub-par business on EVA, EK or SQ - the economy? Like a recession in comparison.

Pack decent homemade sandwiches, fruit and cheese. Or a bento box

All
Have to agree with all comments regards to the poor service you get on American carriers, but also have to share with you a little observation I witnessed on a VA flight back in May. In Business class when breakfast was brought out a women opposite me queried the flavour of the Yogurt I think, to which the estuary English stewardess stuck her "pinky" in it and tasted it declareing it to be Strawberry ! I believe she did change the Yogurt but I am not sure it was quite the impression VA would like to portray. I will spare date of flight details but it was going East, and was my first VA flight for some years and have to say compared with Gulf carriers I was not that impressed.


Regards
Mr Mac

Well the response I got at work was basically it was my own fault as there were earlier VA and KLM flights under the code share. Thanks team, how was I supposed to know. Naively I assumed that things improve with time, better aircraft, better service, better safety. Well, wiser now.

Have never travelled business class [poor value for money] but recently went LHR to KL with Malaysia on an A.380. My wife and I had 4 seats each to sleep on, there and back, free drinks, good food and stunningly beautiful and efficient F/As. We were taken up to look at business class, and we reckoned, because the flight wasn't full, that we had more room in economy!!. A very good experience!.

KLM are nothing to sing and dance about, I have flown with them inter Europe many a time, there was a period when they banned serving alcohol in economy whilst there would be a party going on the other side of the curtain in business, and when, because there were so many complaints, they reintroduced alcohol they had reduced beer sizes from 330ml to 250ml, so small it's not even worth serving and Heineken tastes like gnats pee anyway.

The one time I did fly long haul with KLM MNL/AMS/CWL it was OK ... Just OK.

In comparison I also flew many a time inter Europe with Swiss and long haul BHX/ZRH/HKG/BHX/ZRH, despite how much I hate becoming bored whilst flying I actually looked forward to my flights with Swiss, they were always such a pleasant experience.

And as for Cathay, the time I flew long haul LHR/HKG/CEB with them, on the cheapest of economy tickets, I worked in the airlines for some 30 years, but Cathay's catering was so good I kept the menu card:

LHR/HKG

Starter:

Herb marinated potato and bean salad.

Main Course:

Braised pork in chestnut sauce with steamed rice, broccoli and carrots.

or

Tomato and herb crusted chicken on peperonata and buttered gnocchi.

or

Spiral pasta with tomato mascarpone, black olives and cheese

Dessert:

Beachdean ice cream

Served with tea and coffee

That was served after an evening departure from LHR, before our afternoon arrival in HKG we found ourselves being served:

Breakfast

Fresh fruit salad

Fruit yoghurt

Cheese omelette with pork sausage, sauteed potatoes and mushrooms in tomato sauce.

or

Stir fried Shanghai noodles with chicken and mixed vegetables

Bread roll with jam and butter

Served with tea and coffee


Snacks:

Cup noodle and assorted snacks are available throughout the flight.

Than was LHR/HKG, then I had a 1 hour connection rushing around, not even time to finish a cup of coffee, before I was on my way HKG/CEB just in time to be served another 3 course dinner.

Fantastic :)

I would have to agree with that, I could possibly justify twice the economy fare but not the 3-5 times multiple. Work out the difference in $ per hour and it is horrendous. Choose a good airline with suitable departure times, pay extra for an exit row seat and bring along your own comforts such as a noise cancelling headset, iPad, slippers, eye mask and neck pillow. Supplement the menu with a few treats of your own such as cheese and chocolate.

On a really long journey such as London Sydney, break the trip with a few hours in the airside transit hotel at your en route stop. A decent sleep, session in the gym and pool, and a decent restaurant meal before getting back onboard makes a nightmare journey quite bearable.

A business class ticket typically gives 1.25 times the frequent flyer miles of an economy one for 4 times the fare so status won't come that much quicker in the airlines program.

Like many, I have found Premium Economy a good balance for long haul. I like the VS version and, this year, used the new PE on Singapore for LHR~SIN~SYD and thought it was good.

ps The BA product (World Traveller Plus) is not worth it.

What is the benefit of PE on Singapore Airlines? Yesterday I flew Johannesburg to Singapore on the A350, sitting immediately behind PE, at no time did I observe special treatment or isolation of the so called select cabin. What ever it cost extra was a con by SQ.

I agree that the separation of cabins is not much but then, I've been in biz (other carrier) with screaming kids in the same row, or two rows behind (in Y) and they were loud enough to have been next to me!

• At check-in there are separate queues (or you use Biz)
• The seat is is wider (in some of their aircraft) check beforehand
• The seat pitch is longer
• The seat reclines further (check well know seating websites)
• The seat has extra leg support in recline (see their website)
• Food: on an increasing number of flight (especially from SIN) [not yet from JNB] you get 'Book The Cook'. Check on their website as you can choose a meal from an extra large menu, about 6 or 8 choices, or just opt for the choice on the day.
• Luggage is increased (check their website)

For me, all of the above are worth paying extra for. Some some folks, they will not be.

PAXboy
I agree with you on PE to a degree. Although I have found that when going on holiday and looking at PE with some carriers you can find a Business Class product with another carrier for not much difference. In one case looking at BA PE against EK Business to SIN the difference was £150 which when you take into account the perks of EK Business with Chauffer pick up easily covers that. For Business I am lucky in that over 4hrs flying, which most of my own travels are, we get Business Class as standard. Also in my own company we have had made significant and beneficial contacts when flying in Business, especially in that much maligned bar at the back of the A380 !
Regards
Mr Mac

Yes indeed, and on my next trip to South Africa I am doing just that - and accepting the dog leg journey rather than a direct.

Companies do have the advantage of being able to negotiate deals but my days of biz travel are over and every journey is paid for! So, when planning long haul, I consider who I'm travelling with and what they can afford, elapsed time, facilities, the carrier, the aircraft type, the seat - the lot.

I recall a discussion I had many years ago when in VS Upper to JFK when I worked for an American company. My neighbour said, "The company allows biz class on certain journeys but if the employee opts for Y - then they and the company split the difference 50/50 so they both benefit." That was before PE started but it sounded like a great idea.

Mate of mine be in the US gets business class on international flights and economy on domestic ones. He can enjoy premium service on an hour long flight to Canada but gets relegated to the cheap seats for a five hour coast to coast.

My experience of biz class has me on a few options:

Virgin Upper: Great if you are alone and do not plan on sleeping. With a partner on the 747 you are so far apart with no easy way of talking. Then having to get up and convert seat into a bed is a pain. Actually I preferred PE on the return.

You think Delta is bad, try AA. They put the bad service of DL to shame.

For me, it has to be United, but with the old CO product. So my DUB-EWR is always a pleasure.

Airbourne - you hit the nail on the head there with your comments about VS. I think the industry is missing a huge trick here with their fancy flat beds and strangely configured seating.

My view is that the gap between economy and business should be filled by a business-lite rather than PE product. The first carrier that provides comfortable (but not ridiculously spacious) seating and a full business class product for a reasonable fare will do very well.

I think that the reason that it is called Premium Economy is so that travellers can adhere to corporate policies limiting travel to economy. Whether the service level is adequate for the premium paid is a good question.

Definitely. Business requires approval from a manager higher up the line and more justification from me. PE is much easier. On QF a few years ago when I did it PE was the back of the A380 on the top deck and the main advantage was larger seats and not being able to reach the seat in front of you when you straightened out your arm. Last trip a few weeks back I was in economy on an A380 and it seems the back of the top deck was also economy, then PE, then business moving forward.

First off, never judge based on a single flight - everyone can have an off day. I scored a first class upgrade on a recent flight to Las Vegas - going was terrific, coming back horrid - same operator :rolleyes:
I've flown international business on several operators - across both the Pacific and the Atlantic - and I can't say anyone stood out as a whole lot better or worse than the others (although the Asian operators always have younger, prettier flight attendants). Nearly everyone has the lie-flat seats now days with good video entertainment, and except for BA, one button push would do the lie-flat trick. I'm rather fond of the Delta layout that every business class seat has direct aisle access, although their seats tend to be a touch narrow for me through the shoulders when in the sleeping position. I also noticed Delta has a better selection of movies than the others (especially Asian). Food/drink have been generally pretty good - although here a slight benefit to the North American operators simply because their offerings tend to be more along the line of the type of food I prefer. I flew a Korean A380 from LA to Seoul recently - best Vodka Collins I've ever had at the bar in the back of business class :ok:

I've not flown international in economy in quite some time, but somewhere in the 5-6 hour range (domestic or international), I'm going to at least spring for premium economy. I'm getting too old to endure cattle class that long just to save a few bucks. I don't think any of the US operators offer complementary meals in domestic economy any more - so plan accordingly. I usually either eat at the airport or buy something to take on-board, although some of the stuff they sell on-board is decent.

Theres little commonality betwen J claasses in the same way that Y or PE varya lot from airline to airline.
BA biz class is very dated now with the narrow cramped seats- Virgin more spacious but awful beds that only the FAs can work and leave feet projecting into aisle,
EK very nice layout on 380 -cheap tacky decor but good IFE and decent food, on T7 pretty rubbish but then I dont like T7s at all.

Virgin PE is good -better than BA but BA isnt bad as far as the seats go especially if you get the window side pairs.

As for the US side based on recent experiences United on 76s much better than AA which didnt even have built in IFE on their 76 (however my seat mate was the AA check pilot for the flight and a very affable chatty guy who was only too happy to talk about a very interesting Mil and AA career-definately best IFE since the closed FD door days.

As to J class on business well tis easy to say that the 4-5 times multiple cannot be justified bt when you are doing 2-3 long hauls a month plus some intra Europe stuff it really is necessary for your well being and sanity and those FF miles are a justified perk for people who ahve their familly life and marriage impacted by constant absence.

Only ever came across one sensible travel policy and that was years ago, me and my team did 80% of the travelling, it was weekly event for all 6-7 of us -we flew business everyone else flew economy since they seldom did more than once a quarter or even less.

Theres lot more than just nicer food to the J class issue and one has to look at a wide range of issues , as has been pointed out some US companies who enforce these things quite rigidly are oblivious to the Canada= International= Business , NY-Honolulu, 9 hours coach

The thing that I want to know though is WHY the US carriers have allowed themselves to run down their service levels so much. Okay its the "cutting costs" argument but if other airlines are facing the same challenges, why do the US legacy carriers lag so far behind?

"WHY the US carriers have allowed themselves to run down their service levels so much"

maximise payments to shareholders

Because I don't "usually fly business class" (not since leaving the airline industry many years ago, and now paying the market price!), I've recently contributed to the Aer Lingus thread over at Airlines, Airports & Routes.

Starting with my post #3277, 23:47hrs/07Aug:

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...s-6-a-164.html

Some here might - or equally might not! - find some relevance to this thread.:)

But most companies have shareholders to please (okay perhaps not Middle Eastern carriers, who first spring to mind) but the US carriers seem to have managed down the expectations of their customers so much that they are all providing this same low level of service and nobody is willing to break the mould.

breaking the mold costs money - and there is plenty of evidence over the last 40 years that the vast bulk of travellers go with the cheapest possible airline

Otherwise Ryanair would still only have 7 aircraft............

Exactly, people say they will pay a bit more for for a better service but on the day they'll take the cheapest option and complain about what they've got. The race is to the bottom not upwards, I can't remember the last time I saw any news about airlines increasing seat pitch and putting up fares because of demand from economy class passengers. Cram in an extra row of seats and reduce the width to have 9 across instead of 8, advertised a 9.99 fare and watch them come running.

Oh I totally understand about breaking the mold costing money and it being a race to the bottom as customers seek out cheaper fares, but my original question was why are the US airlines (especially the legacy ones) able to offer such an inferior product compared to others. Of course they have to answer to shareholders, but so do many other airlines.

It is just strange to me that in a region of the world known for customer service and offering consumers a choice, the airlines have such a (often justified) bad reputation. But maybe that is a topic for a different thread.......

That is a good question XSBaggage. I wonder if these factors are part of it:

• A very great proportion of their pax are US travelling inside the US and do not experience the range of different carriers that we have in Europe.
• Their US pax who do not travel internationally often, probably feel safer to book with a US carrier.
• Their US pax who do travel internationally often, inc C + F, may have employer restrictions to stay with US carriers.
• US carriers may offer financial benefits to those C + F pax.
• US based Frequent Flyer Miles programmes.